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New PMC Fact Fenestria

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newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
Electro said:
I don't think the music was bad at all ,

Vannessa Fernandez and Fourplay , both very good recordings that are in my collection .

I was lucky enough to see Fourplay perform live and muzak it ain't *nea*,  it's powerful dynamic and very expressive, they are supremely talented smooth jazz musicians who are considered to be some of the best musicians in the US if not the world .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0jztJ0SIs

I love the look of that separate open baffle for the midrange and tweeter .

If I had a spare £45,000 I would buy them in a heartbeat. *man_in_love*
Please lend me 4000 pounds for a DCS network bridge. I will sing in place of the fenestria's :)
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
3
18,545
I don't think the music was bad at all ,

Vannessa Fernandez and Fourplay , both very good recordings that are in my collection .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NISi2JtyshE

I was lucky enough to see Fourplay perform live and muzak it ain't *nea*, it's powerful dynamic and very expressive, they are supremely talented smooth jazz musicians who are considered to be some of the best musicians in the US if not the world .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0jztJ0SIs

I love the look of that separate open baffle for the midrange and tweeter .

If I had a spare £45,000 I would buy them in a heartbeat. *man_in_love*
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
3
18,545
newlash09 said:
Electro said:
I don't think the music was bad at all ,

Vannessa Fernandez and Fourplay , both very good recordings that are in my collection .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NISi2JtyshE

I was lucky enough to see Fourplay perform live and muzak it ain't *nea*, it's powerful dynamic and very expressive, they are supremely talented smooth jazz musicians who are considered to be some of the best musicians in the US if not the world .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0jztJ0SIs

I love the look of that separate open baffle for the midrange and tweeter .

If I had a spare £45,000 I would buy them in a heartbeat. *man_in_love*
Please lend me 4000 pounds for a DCS network bridge. I will sing in place of the fenestria's :)
I would lend it to you but I am going to need it for the deposit on the PMC 's . *biggrin*
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
Electro said:
newlash09 said:
Electro said:
I don't think the music was bad at all ,

Vannessa Fernandez and Fourplay , both very good recordings that are in my collection .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NISi2JtyshE

I was lucky enough to see Fourplay perform live and muzak it ain't *nea*,  it's powerful dynamic and very expressive, they are supremely talented smooth jazz musicians who are considered to be some of the best musicians in the US if not the world .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ0jztJ0SIs

I love the look of that separate open baffle for the midrange and tweeter .

If I had a spare £45,000 I would buy them in a heartbeat. *man_in_love*
Please lend me 4000 pounds for a DCS network bridge. I will sing in place of the fenestria's :)
I would lend it to you but I am going to need it for the deposit on the PMC 's .  *biggrin*
That was some quick wit I must admit :D
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Electro said:
Andrewjvt said:
Shift a few units: They also feature PMC's trademark transmission line bass-loading technology and Formula 1-inspired twin Laminair vents. Sounds like £45,000 well spent.
Oliver Thomas worked for the Red Bull F1 team  working on the electronic control of engines including software before deciding to join his father at PMC, so he knows a bit about F1 technology !

https://techfruit.com/2018/02/02/interview-oliver-thomas-british-speaker-pioneers-pmc/
So please explain to me how F1 technology relates to the working of the speakers? Is it airflow (aerodynamics)

Or are we talking looks and outer design.
Bearing in mind that my background is also of a similar nature.
It's just sales talk to me and an excuse to mention it
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
854
399
5,270
I know PMC believe in ATL designs, but what happens when they want to design a £90k pair of speakers?

Will they go with larger drivers and similar design, or will they go 8ft tall with even longer transmission line?

Surely two 8 - 8.5 inch drive units isobarically loaded could achieve the same bass depth and with less phase issues... in a far smaller box *scratch_one-s_head*

Or is this a point when you're spending £45k to have speakers of this size and complexity?
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
Andrewjvt said:
Electro said:
Andrewjvt said:
Shift a few units: They also feature PMC's trademark transmission line bass-loading technology and Formula 1-inspired twin Laminair vents. Sounds like £45,000 well spent.
Oliver Thomas worked for the Red Bull F1 team  working on the electronic control of engines including software before deciding to join his father at PMC, so he knows a bit about F1 technology !

https://techfruit.com/2018/02/02/interview-oliver-thomas-british-speaker-pioneers-pmc/
So please explain to me how F1 technology relates to the working of the speakers? Is it airflow (aerodynamics)

Or are we talking looks and outer design.
Bearing in mind that my background is also of a similar nature.
It's just sales talk to me and an excuse to mention it
Is in the price
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
insider9 said:
I know PMC believe in ATL designs, but what happens when they want to design a £90k pair of speakers? 

Will they go with larger drivers and similar design, or will they go 8ft tall with even longer transmission line?

Surely two 8 - 8.5 inch drive units isobarically loaded could achieve the same bass depth and with less phase issues... in a far smaller box *scratch_one-s_head*

Or is this a point when you're spending £45k to have speakers of this size and complexity?
From my limited listening to other speakers, I have realised that PMC have a lean presentation to the sound . The bass goes real deep and real fast, but not thick. I don't know how to put it across.

The big 12 inch drivers I heard sound rich and thick. But dont have the pmc's speed :)
 

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
613
380
19,270
newlash09 said:
insider9 said:
I know PMC believe in ATL designs, but what happens when they want to design a £90k pair of speakers?

Will they go with larger drivers and similar design, or will they go 8ft tall with even longer transmission line?

Surely two 8 - 8.5 inch drive units isobarically loaded could achieve the same bass depth and with less phase issues... in a far smaller box *scratch_one-s_head*

Or is this a point when you're spending £45k to have speakers of this size and complexity?
From my limited listening to other speakers, I have realised that PMC have a lean presentation to the sound . The bass goes real deep and real fast, but not thick. I don't know how to put it across.

The big 12 inch drivers I heard sound rich and thick. But dont have the pmc's speed :)
Yes, that’s the choice, newlash. They can get the radiating area equivalent by having several small drivers rather than one big one. The smaller drivers are easier to start and stop, and cynics would say are cheaper too. ( Blacksabbath was asking something similar a while back )

They also play to the fashion for tall, deep and slim, as opposed to how classic Spendor, JBL and so on looked (wide and shallow). The accepted wisdom is narrower cabinets have fewer diffraction issues, and a narrow baffle is stiffer. But once you hear a big ‘un, rather like driving a V8 car, everything else pales somewhat!
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
8
0
nopiano said:
Yes, that’s the choice, newlash. They can get the radiating area equivalent by having several small drivers rather than one big one.  The smaller drivers are easier to start and stop, and cynics would say are cheaper too. ( Blacksabbath was asking something similar a while back )

They also play to the fashion for tall, deep and slim, as opposed to how classic Spendor, JBL and so on looked (wide and shallow).  The accepted wisdom is narrower cabinets have fewer diffraction issues, and a narrow baffle is stiffer.  But once you hear a big ‘un, rather like driving a V8 car, everything else pales somewhat!
Exactly my choice when I compared Harbeth 40.2 vs Kef Ref 3
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
3
18,545
Andrewjvt said:
Electro said:
Andrewjvt said:
Shift a few units: They also feature PMC's trademark transmission line bass-loading technology and Formula 1-inspired twin Laminair vents. Sounds like £45,000 well spent.
Oliver Thomas worked for the Red Bull F1 team working on the electronic control of engines including software before deciding to join his father at PMC, so he knows a bit about F1 technology !

https://techfruit.com/2018/02/02/interview-oliver-thomas-british-speaker-pioneers-pmc/
So please explain to me how F1 technology relates to the working of the speakers? Is it airflow (aerodynamics)

Or are we talking looks and outer design. Bearing in mind that my background is also of a similar nature. It's just sales talk to me and an excuse to mention it
I would guess airflow from the TL vents but I don't know for sure .

I think Oliver had a lot the do with the measurement protocols and laser interferometry when testing.

The best thing would be to send an email and ask about what contributions the F1tech had on the overall design, I suspect they will be helpful as you also have an F1 background.
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
3
18,545
I have noticed recently that many bass players use cabs with multiple smaller bass drivers rather than one or two large ones .

It seems to make for a much tighter controled bass with better leading edges and less audible distortion but with no loss off power or depth .
 

jjbomber

Well-known member
Dec 22, 2006
945
379
19,270
Electro said:
Oliver Thomas worked for the Red Bull F1 team working on the electronic control of engines including software before deciding to join his father at PMC, so he knows a bit about F1 technology !
Obviously you need to be a F1 driver to afford them. I can see the connection.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Electro said:
Andrewjvt said:
Electro said:
Andrewjvt said:
Shift a few units: They also feature PMC's trademark transmission line bass-loading technology and Formula 1-inspired twin Laminair vents. Sounds like £45,000 well spent.
Oliver Thomas worked for the Red Bull F1 team  working on the electronic control of engines including software before deciding to join his father at PMC, so he knows a bit about F1 technology !

https://techfruit.com/2018/02/02/interview-oliver-thomas-british-speaker-pioneers-pmc/
So please explain to me how F1 technology relates to the working of the speakers? Is it airflow (aerodynamics)

Or are we talking looks and outer design. Bearing in mind that my background is also of a similar nature. It's just sales talk to me and an excuse to mention it
I would guess airflow from the TL vents but I don't know for sure .

I think Oliver had a lot the do with the measurement protocols and laser interferometry when testing.

The best thing would be to send an email and ask about what contributions the F1tech had on the overall design, I suspect they will be helpful as you also have an F1 background.

 
My background is not F1 btw
Small formula vee/ford
Group n factory team, modified salons and gokarts plus brief time testing for BMW
But I understand the power of marketing in such ways.
 
There may be more, but the F1 tech does refer to the air vents used in PMC’s transmission line design. I’m guessing Oliver brought up the idea and they then tested (and presumably measured) numerous designs to see which was best. “Laminair” sounds a bit like flooring to me, but it seems to work - the difference between the Twenty and Twenty5 Series was pretty big, particularly in the bass department.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
davidf said:
Electro said:
I have noticed recently that many bass players use cabs with multiple smaller bass drivers rather than one or two large ones .

It seems to make for a much tighter controled bass with better leading edges and less audible distortion but with no loss off power or depth .
Youkre Right Electro.

This was started by Mission’s 783 speaker back in the early 90s. Multiple smaller drivers to retain cone area and make up for having one larger one. This allowed a slimline cabinet (although it had to be deeper to retain cabinet volume). They were praised as some sort of hi-fi miracle, and whilst they will have their place in hi-fi history, they were cheap drivers, the same ones used in their sub £200 speakers - just in a nice solid cabinet. From then on most people wanted slimline cabinets which were perceived as more room friendly, and less likely to initiate divorce proceedings. 

Subwoofers are similar. You’ll see some great big subs out there with 15” and 18” drivers, and they’ll be infamous for what they do and can achieve, but some take the route of smaller dual drivers which allows smaller cabinets, plus the fact you can play about with the design (isobaric/push-pull etc). Ken Kreisel is probably best known for this - most American sub manufacturers seem to want to go bigger and bigger, but Ken wanted to retain speed and agility, so always used dual drivers in his better subs. You won’t see a Ken Kreisel design using anything more than a 12” driver (and always sealed), and you won’t see any crazy 2/3” roll surrounds either - I know the more a driver moves allows it to shift air more violently, but the further the cone travels, the more distortion it is producing, and the slower it will sound. Some argue against that, but it’s something that I agree with Ken on. I’m looking forward to hearing his new range later in the year.

I appreciate large drivers have their place, as they produce a different sound to smaller drivers - like everything else, it’s preference. 
On who manufacturers the drivers.
 

Diamond Joe

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2008
88
6
18,545
davidf said:
Electro said:
I have noticed recently that many bass players use cabs with multiple smaller bass drivers rather than one or two large ones .

It seems to make for a much tighter controled bass with better leading edges and less audible distortion but with no loss off power or depth .
Youkre Right Electro.

This was started by Mission’s 783 speaker back in the early 90s. Multiple smaller drivers to retain cone area and make up for having one larger one. This allowed a slimline cabinet (although it had to be deeper to retain cabinet volume). They were praised as some sort of hi-fi miracle, and whilst they will have their place in hi-fi history, they were cheap drivers, the same ones used in their sub £200 speakers - just in a nice solid cabinet. From then on most people wanted slimline cabinets which were perceived as more room friendly, and less likely to initiate divorce proceedings.

Subwoofers are similar. You’ll see some great big subs out there with 15” and 18” drivers, and they’ll be infamous for what they do and can achieve, but some take the route of smaller dual drivers which allows smaller cabinets, plus the fact you can play about with the design (isobaric/push-pull etc). Ken Kreisel is probably best known for this - most American sub manufacturers seem to want to go bigger and bigger, but Ken wanted to retain speed and agility, so always used dual drivers in his better subs. You won’t see a Ken Kreisel design using anything more than a 12” driver (and always sealed), and you won’t see any crazy 2/3” roll surrounds either - I know the more a driver moves allows it to shift air more violently, but the further the cone travels, the more distortion it is producing, and the slower it will sound. Some argue against that, but it’s something that I agree with Ken on. I’m looking forward to hearing his new range later in the year.

I appreciate large drivers have their place, as they produce a different sound to smaller drivers - like everything else, it’s preference.
I seem to remember that the 783's had a large driver on the side of the speaker to pick up the lower bass frequencies, like some of the more recent Rega speakers.
 
Electro said:
I have noticed recently that many bass players use cabs with multiple smaller bass drivers rather than one or two large ones .

It seems to make for a much tighter controled bass with better leading edges and less audible distortion but with no loss off power or depth .
Youkre Right Electro.

This was started by Mission’s 753 speaker back in the early 90s. Multiple smaller drivers to retain cone area and make up for having one larger one. This allowed a slimline cabinet (although it had to be deeper to retain cabinet volume). They were praised as some sort of hi-fi miracle, and whilst they will have their place in hi-fi history, they were cheap drivers, the same ones used in their sub £200 speakers - just in a nice solid cabinet. From then on most people wanted slimline cabinets which were perceived as more room friendly, and less likely to initiate divorce proceedings.

Subwoofers are similar. You’ll see some great big subs out there with 15” and 18” drivers, and they’ll be infamous for what they do and can achieve, but some take the route of smaller dual drivers which allows smaller cabinets, plus the fact you can play about with the design (isobaric/push-pull etc). Ken Kreisel is probably best known for this - most American sub manufacturers seem to want to go bigger and bigger, but Ken wanted to retain speed and agility, so always used dual drivers in his better subs. You won’t see a Ken Kreisel design using anything more than a 12” driver (and always sealed), and you won’t see any crazy 2/3” roll surrounds either - I know the more a driver moves allows it to shift air more violently, but the further the cone travels, the more distortion it is producing, and the slower it will sound. Some argue against that, but it’s something that I agree with Ken on. I’m looking forward to hearing his new range later in the year.

I appreciate large drivers have their place, as they produce a different sound to smaller drivers - like everything else, it’s preference.
 
Diamond Joe said:
I seem to remember that the 783's had a large driver on the side of the speaker to pick up the lower bass frequencies, like some of the more recent Rega speakers.
Apologies - I meant 753, from the early 90s. I think the 78 series were late 90s. I've amended my post in case anyone comes across it from a web search :)
 

Diamond Joe

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2008
88
6
18,545
davidf said:
Apologies - I meant 753, from the early 90s. I think the 78 series were late 90s. I've amended my post in case anyone comes across it from a web search :)
Ah the 753, I'd forgotten about them, that's a lot of drivers, I don't think I ever heard them.
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
nopiano said:
newlash09 said:
insider9 said:
I know PMC believe in ATL designs, but what happens when they want to design a £90k pair of speakers? 

Will they go with larger drivers and similar design, or will they go 8ft tall with even longer transmission line?

Surely two 8 - 8.5 inch drive units isobarically loaded could achieve the same bass depth and with less phase issues... in a far smaller box *scratch_one-s_head*

Or is this a point when you're spending £45k to have speakers of this size and complexity?
From my limited listening to other speakers, I have realised that PMC have a lean presentation to the sound . The bass goes real deep and real fast, but not thick. I don't know how to put it across.

The big 12 inch drivers I heard sound rich and thick. But dont have the pmc's speed :)
Yes, that’s the choice, newlash. They can get the radiating area equivalent by having several small drivers rather than one big one.  The smaller drivers are easier to start and stop, and cynics would say are cheaper too. ( Blacksabbath was asking something similar a while back )

They also play to the fashion for tall, deep and slim, as opposed to how classic Spendor, JBL and so on looked (wide and shallow).  The accepted wisdom is narrower cabinets have fewer diffraction issues, and a narrow baffle is stiffer.  But once you hear a big ‘un, rather like driving a V8 car, everything else pales somewhat!
After some other systems I've heard , I've realised that each does one thing better. The b&w's were awesome for vocals but the bass was all over the place. The Yamaha active speakers I heard had a rich sound but not the speed. So it is really surprising how everyone got their advise right in suggesting the PMC's. And I really dont have any complaints. I went for the parasound halo integrated because I wanted to add a Sub. But the PMC's are so fast, so deep and so agile. I really couldn't ask for more :)
 

spiny norman

New member
Jan 14, 2009
293
0
0
Is this where I'm supposed to join in with the general mood and say "I haven't seen or heard the new PMCs, but I know they're horrid and are going to sound awful"?

(Actually I have, and even the PMC people at the show were saying the room in which they were demonstrated was hardly ideal for them. Bbut then that's shows for you. FWIW I thought they showed promise, but I'll wait until I've heard them in a proper room, not a glorified conference room/clothing showroom lined with glass display cases, before making any firm judgements)
 

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