New amplifier: my long journey...

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acalex

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OK, regarding the topic...I had my mistic crisis last few days but it is gone now! Was enough to put a bit louder Keith don't go from Neils Lofgren Acoustic Live to remind myself why I picked the Jadis.

From stone cold, using Squeezebox with no DAC and still with Monitor Audio RX6 was really magic...can't wait to finish my set-up and allow this beauty to sing freely...will be soon doing something about digital source. Will try to borrow the Rega DAC as a start to see how things change/improve (if...).
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
Yes, we should found a club in Brussels!

Cno you have to come meeting us soon or later. How is your back now?

I have the Brussels trip on my Bucket List.

Regarding my back.....I'm due for surgery in about 6 weeks, where I'll be getting a fusion of L3/L4. I'm told that I can expect to off work for 3 months. If all goes well, I would like nothing more than becoming an honorary member of the Brussels Massive for the weekend!
 

Thumpa

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acalex said:
CnoEvil said:
I've just got my timing a little wrong. The valves would have nicely offset the slight forwardness of the MA sound, but I have reservations about the suitability of them with that valve amp....which I'm happy for more technical folk to comment on. I also think the Kef Refs and the Cremonas, are both unsuitable to be driven with a Valve amp as well. They both have high sensitivity but nose-diving impedance. IMO The MAs are a bit on the brighter side of neutral, the Kefs a touch the other side of neutral and the SFs are a bit warmer....but this is subjective. For Valves look for speakers with a sensitivity of 90db +, and an impedance that doesn't drop too low. Audio Note were designed for the job and possibly the Proac D40R, which they say will work with amps from 10W (can't confirm though). I also think Renaud might be suitable: http://www.jm-reynaud.com/jmr/anglais/accueil_us.php The shop selling the Jadis must have a range of less current hungry speakers, that they could put forward. How did you find the presentation vs Plinius + Kefs? Maybe your technical friend can comment on Jadis + Kef/MA as a viable proposition.

Well Cno, to be completely honest with you, I think the Jadis was great with the Silver RX6. It really did not dissapoint me at all...

Then he switched to the PL200 and I was ALREADY expecting to hear a huge improvement...but my first istinctive reaction was that I preferred the first sound. Then I said to myself...it must be impossible...as they cost 6 times more...they have to be better. Was also influenced by the dealer who kept saying how clener and nicer the sound was...but my gut feeling was that one.

Unfortunately thies friend lives in Italy so can't really judge. I can ask him for an advice...but speaking about PL200 he said that he tried them once but didn't like as he found the sound too artificial at specific frequencies...and also he said the "s" were hissing...

What do you think of Focal? Or B&W?

EDIT: The Focal Electra 1038Be have a 93db sensitivity and a 40-400W reccomended amp.

acalex

Oh, dude!!??

Trust your own ears!!

If, to you, the Silver sounded better than the Platinum, then that is the truth. And eliminate your 'higher price / bettter performance' mentality -- a sure way to rip up cash which, in this case ... a measly 600+%.

*A Group Test - Floorstanding Loudspeakers £750-£2900 -- the MA Gold at 2,300GBP, the Epos at 750GBP

http://www.otest.co.uk/a/speaker/magazine/hi-fi-news-5-2012/323711.html

All best
 

CnoEvil

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Thumpa said:
acalex

Oh, dude!!??

Trust your own ears!!

If, to you, the Silver sounded better than the Platinum, then that is the truth. And eliminate your 'higher price / bettter performance' mentality -- a sure way to rip up cash which, in this case ... a measly 600+%.

*A Group Test - Floorstanding Loudspeakers £750-£2900 -- the MA Gold at 2,300GBP, the Epos at 750GBP

http://www.otest.co.uk/a/speaker/magazine/hi-fi-news-5-2012/323711.html

All best

I'm afraid you're 577 posts out of date! :)
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
Thumpa said:
acalex

Oh, dude!!??

Trust your own ears!!

If, to you, the Silver sounded better than the Platinum, then that is the truth. And eliminate your 'higher price / bettter performance' mentality -- a sure way to rip up cash which, in this case ... a measly 600+%.

*A Group Test - Floorstanding Loudspeakers £750-£2900 -- the MA Gold at 2,300GBP, the Epos at 750GBP

http://www.otest.co.uk/a/speaker/magazine/hi-fi-news-5-2012/323711.html

All best

I'm afraid you're 577 posts out of date! :)

:rofl:

But thanks anyway! You are indeed right...I can tell you now
 

tino

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Some interesting Jadis reviews for you Acalex .. for your next audition ;)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jadis-se300b-monoblock-amplifier

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jadis-eurythmie-ii-loudspeaker
 

acalex

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tino said:
Some interesting Jadis reviews for you Acalex .. for your next audition ;)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jadis-se300b-monoblock-amplifier

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jadis-eurythmie-ii-loudspeaker

Thanks...but actually the review says the monoblocks are not available anymore in 2012 and costed 13k $ in 1996 :dance:
 

acalex

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Actually got a response from Pathos regarding the Inpol2...it takes constantly 320W from the main

He also said that the Inpol 2 is designed in a way it's power outcome does not depend on the impedance...it is constantly 45W. Is that possible?!?

I also found out the Jadis can take impedance from 0 to 8 ohm...very very impressive...
 

iceman16

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Hi Alex.. Im in a search for a cdp. Can you please give me some idea how you describe the Pathos endorphin(in your recent demo).Others would say it's sounded too hifi and some says it lacks excitement and too smooth.I know you have demoed the endorphin with Inpol 2 if Im not mistaken?How do you compare it with other cdp(if you've heard)like Electrocompaniet emc 1 up and Plinius cd101? I won't be able to demo the Endorphin and the EMC 1UP.. Thanks Ice
 

oldric_naubhoff

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acalex said:
He also said that the Inpol 2 is designed in a way it's power outcome does not depend on the impedance...it is constantly 45W. Is that possible?!?

this is true and this is quite unwelcome. if you have speakers with wildly varying impedance, especially in the low impedance regions coupled to wildly varying electrical phase angle this can be quite a stress on the amp. therefore the amp has to produce more power as impedance drops in order to maintain constant volume level. the ideal is double power as impedance halves. however, most amps can't pull such a trick. and here's where you should help with the job for your amp by choosing appropriate speakers to match it.

Inpol amps should be mated to speakers with as high and as flat impedance curves as possible. that's where they will shine. I've read of great results when TT was mated to Audio Note AN-J or AN-K. I always recommend planar/ribbon speakers as they have completely flat impedance (they sound great too as a bonus). also consider Quad ESLs as they have very high impedance in bass and only dropping to about 4 Ohms in the treble. here's plot for ESL 2805 for reference:

66Quadfig01.jpg


AFAIK Pathos is using original Quad ESLs with TT in their demo room with great effect. and original ESLs were more difficult loads then current models.
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
Actually got a response from Pathos regarding the Inpol2...it takes constantly 320W from the main

He also said that the Inpol 2 is designed in a way it's power outcome does not depend on the impedance...it is constantly 45W. Is that possible?!?

I also found out the Jadis can take impedance from 0 to 8 ohm...very very impressive...

The 35i states 330W from the mains, but has been measured at 414W.....no wonder it sounds powerful!
 

WishTree

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CnoEvil said:
The 35i states 330W from the mains, but has been measured at 414W.....no wonder it sounds powerful!

Hi Cno.. How does one get to know such measurements. I am seeing the Harman Kardon HK990 Manual and it says 1000W Power consumption. Does it mean anything?
 

CnoEvil

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WishTree said:
CnoEvil said:
The 35i states 330W from the mains, but has been measured at 414W.....no wonder it sounds powerful!

Hi Cno.. How does one get to know such measurements. I am seeing the Harman Kardon HK990 Manual and it says 1000W Power consumption. Does it mean anything?

I believe that the HK990 has a standing current (on idle) of 180W, which shows it is biassed in Class A for the first few Watts. The 1000W must be it flat out.....which is like the power usage of 2 x 60" plasmas.

In comparison, the 500W MF (M6500i) has a max of 2000W (150W on idle), and the AMS 100 uses 1200W all the time.

So what it tells you is that it is powerful and can generate good power into dropping impedance, and is expensive to run, if you play it loud into speakers with a difficult load.
 

WishTree

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CnoEvil said:
I believe that the HK990 has a standing current (on idle) of 180W, which shows it is biassed in Class A for the first few Watts. The 1000W must be it flat out.....which is like the power usage of 2 x 65" plasmas.

In comparison, the 500W MF (M6500i) has a max of 2000W (150W on idle), and the AMS 100 uses 1200W all the time.

So what it tells you is that it is powerful and can generate good power into dropping impedance, and is expensive to run, if you play it loud into speakers with a difficult load.

180W on idle? Yeah.. I was reading on a review saying that firsr few watts are Class A. I am quite impressed by all the things that it can do so just ordered one to experience it first hand!

BTW, when you mentioned the M6500i, I went to MF website to see and it looks like there is a new M8 series and the M8pre weight 17kgs :shifty: I wonder what would a pre so heavy :?

I digress.. again.
 

CnoEvil

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WishTree said:
180W on idle? Yeah.. I was reading on a review saying that firsr few watts are Class A. I am quite impressed by all the things that it can do so just ordered one to experience it first hand!

Yup, for what it can do, and the power it can deliver, it has to be unbeatable VFM.
 

Covenanter

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Power consumption and power output are not directly related. An amp that burns 1000W would make a good central heating system as that's the same as a one bar electric fire. You would need to keep it well ventilated! Class A amps burn much more power than Class B amps. I looked up the Marantz PM 6004 and that burns 150W, the same as a big light bulb.

Chris
 

CnoEvil

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Covenanter said:
Power consumption and power output are not directly related. An amp that burns 1000W would make a good central heating system as that's the same as a one bar electric fire. You would need to keep it well ventilated! Class A amps burn much more power than Class B amps. I looked up the Marantz PM 6004 and that burns 150W, the same as a big light bulb.

Chris

You may be right, but in the SS amps I'm familiar with, the ones that have high power consumption are often able to double their output as impedance halves eg. 35i and HK 990, so if you combine them with a speaker with low impedance, they sound very powerful. My 35W amp sounds louder than it has any right to.
 

egoBen

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I miss this thread. Any news?

Myself, I got me a pair of Jadis JA30 mono's that I love! Listening to great music every free time I get. I am still looking around for the perfect speakers for me. Currently, I am using my Dynaudio Focus 160 and even though they don't have the "fastest" or most articulate bass around, especially with a low powered tube amp, the overall sound is so good it is hard to miss anything at all! I might try out Totem and Harbeth this weekend, will be very interesting as I have never heard those brands.
 

CnoEvil

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egoBen said:
I miss this thread. Any news?

Myself, I got me a pair of Jadis JA30 mono's that I love! Listening to great music every free time I get. I am still looking around for the perfect speakers for me. Currently, I am using my Dynaudio Focus 160 and even though they don't have the "fastest" or most articulate bass around, especially with a low powered tube amp, the overall sound is so good it is hard to miss anything at all! I might try out Totem and Harbeth this weekend, will be very interesting as I have never heard those brands.

Hi Ben, you might want to put Audio Note speakers on your radar.

BTW. Congratulations on your amp.

It's certainly time that "Bill and Ted" had another excellent adventure.
 

Macspur

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Yer, I miss the deadly duo too... most interesting threads by far!

Ben, Harbeths, a great match for tubes... not sure about Totems though.

Let us know your findings.

Mac
 

egoBen

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Yesterday me and my girlfriend went out for a walk, we were heading towards a hifi store that is located on the other side of the city where we live. I had never visited them before, but I could tell right away this was one of the those really serious hifi stores, that makes you feel good all of the time during the visit, and while we had to wait for the listening room to be ready we had nice chats with the owner and the guy who was going to help us out later on. They were especially glad that I happen to have a girlfriend that is interested in this aswell, even though she don't care at all about technical specs, reading magazines or anything like that, but she has a good ear and is very honest about what she likes. Anyway, I had made an arrangement with them that I wanted to hear three different speakers:

Harbeth ps3er

Totem Model-1 Signature

Totem Arro

The first two speaker are small monitors and the third is a very small floor stander. The goal for me is to find a speaker that plays with less deep bass than my current Dynaudio Focus 160, without losing in warmth and this really involving not bright yet enough detalied sound that I love so much. I happen to have a room that creates a boomy low bass no matter what amplifier I use, which actually can be pretty nice in some extent, but I have too much of it. Bass traps and things like that just won't happen. Eq:ing down the lowest bass works but I don't want to do that. At home I am using a class A tube amplfier with an output of 30 watts per channel with a tube pre amplifier (Jadis JA30 + Jadis JP15). I think this is some piece of equipment I would never get rid off in my life. I might use something else at some time, but I will always keep these, I am pretty sure of that. From morning until late at night, they create a sound that is so nice to listen to, with amazing separation, details and vocals just sound extremely real and close. I could go on but I won't.

Dynaudio, besides being known for being very hard to drive, are known for their big nice sound and very little brightness. And that I like a lot. So it will be really tough for any contender to outperform my current speakers. And I know I won't find speakers that are better just like that, it will take a lot of time and effort, especially as the looks are of very big importance aswell. Unfortunately, we didn't do the comparison with a tube amp but instead we where using an integrated from Roksan. This created a very different sound from what I am used to at home, but this listening session was about comparing these three speakers and the Roksan was a good tool for that. But I am well aware of that I would need to use my own amplifer (in my own room) to make a final decision. And I am actually glad I don't have an amp like this at home, it's it too sharp and analytical for me, I want to relax when I listen to music. And I can do that now, hearing even more details, but in smoother way. The listening room seemed to be very different from mine at home also, without any bass boom at all.

We were using three tracks from different cd's. "Hold on" by Tim O'Brien, a bluegrass/folk/country song with mostly acoustic instruments and male vocals. "Lovedust" by Luna, a well recorded pop/rock song with a couple of pretty rough electric guitars and some acoustic guitars aswell, mostly male vocals but some female aswell. "Political world" by Bob Dylan, with pretty punchy bass and an atmospheric sound from an album that I've been listening to for ages on every piece of music equipment I have ever owned that I can remember.

We started out with the Harbeth's. They were brand new and looked really nice, both me and my girlfriend were very impressed by this. Even though they are very small, they played with a decent low bass and I could clearly hear all of the bass notes, it was punchy, and the sound was full and nice to listen to aswell. Maybe a tiny bit boxed in sound but only very marginally and I'm not sure that's even the right words, but compared to what I hear at home, something was slightly different. The Harbeth's where very detailed, I could hear the instruments in the songs clearly and with very good stereo separatation too. Not as clearly as in my home but I suppose that's because of the difference in the amplifiers. The Harbeth's were not bright on any track. The vocals sounded very natural, very close but not overly so. We both liked these speakers, my girlfriend maye a little bit more than me.

I was very curious to hear the Totem Model-1's as I've read so much good about them lately. For instance, that they easily outperforms Dynaudio Focus. First I have to mention the size of these speakers, they are really tiny. Impressive when you start listening, because the bass is there, in my opinion, playing smooth yet punchy like the Harbeth's and the overall impression was that they where playing very neutral and filling the room with nice music very well, but the Dylan track could be a bit overly bright when playing loud, something I've never experience before on this track with equipment I have owned. At home, these speakers would probably sound very different, they are supposed to be hard to drive for any amplifier. The speakers are great but I couldn't not tell if they would be great in my home from this listening session.

Moving on to the floor standers, the Totem Arro, in shiny red! In the store, they told me that people actually bought these speakers without even listening to them. They look great and would suit many small room homes. With a 4,5 inch woofer, they are very slank. But also very unstable. On spikes, you can overturn them with a light push. Soundwise, they are floor standers after all and have a bigger internal size than the previous speakers. And you could tell right away, the bass was fuller sounding than what the Totem Model-1's we listened to some minutes earlier delivered. And overall, they actually performed very well compared to the first two speakers. The soundstage was very wide, playing with lots of deails and I didn't really miss anything, they didn't sound overly bright on any track either, just a joy to listen to. However, compared to the first speakers, the sound lacked the precision, the finest details, the clearness of especially the Model-1's. And from what I can remember, vocals maybe didn't come out in the same way either. But these are very minor complaints, I'm not even sure I remember that correctly. Very good speakers, for the size and money they cost! Too bad our two cats at home aren't insured for destroying speakers.

I will conclude this by saying I could not find a clear winner, I liked all of the speakers very much! And this was just a first step towards finding the perfect speakers. I don't know if I would like to listen to other speakers in other stores before taking some of these speakers home for a real test. I am interested in other speakers aswell, for instance the Dynaudio Excite X12 and Focus 110, as I already know I like the "house sound". Of the three speakers in the comparision, my girlfriend perfered the Harbeth's because they never sound bright and has a very nice finish, but she liked both of the Totem's aswell too. And the Arro's should be really easy to put in the home (with some glue or whatever) and enjoy for a long time, but I have a little itch telling me I would want something even better than that. Let's find out later if I bring the Harbeth's at home, and maybe one of the Totem's too. That would be very interesting. This was a great listening experience in one of the nicest hifi stores I've visitied. Hifi can be very fun, and it's not over. Thanks for reading!
 

CnoEvil

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egoBen said:
Yesterday me and my girlfriend went out for a walk, we were heading towards a hifi store that is located on the other side of the city where we live. I had never visited them before, but I could tell right away this was one of the those really serious hifi stores, that makes you feel good all of the time during the visit, and while we had to wait for the listening room to be ready we had nice chats with the owner and the guy who was going to help us out later on. They were especially glad that I happen to have a girlfriend that is interested in this aswell, even though she don't care at all about technical specs, reading magazines or anything like that, but she has a good ear and is very honest about what she likes. Anyway, I had made an arrangement with them that I wanted to hear three different speakers:

Harbeth ps3er

Totem Model-1 Signature

Totem Arro

I will conclude this by saying I could not find a clear winner, I liked all of the speakers very much! And this was just a first step towards finding the perfect speakers. I don't know if I would like to listen to other speakers in other stores before taking some of these speakers home for a real test. I am interested in other speakers aswell, for instance the Dynaudio Excite X12 and Focus 110, as I already know I like the "house sound". Of the three speakers in the comparision, my girlfriend perfered the Harbeth's because they never sound bright and has a very nice finish, but she liked both of the Totem's aswell too. And the Arro's should be really easy to put in the home (with some glue or whatever) and enjoy for a long time, but I have a little itch telling me I would want something even better than that. Let's find out later if I bring the Harbeth's at home, and maybe one of the Totem's too. That would be very interesting. This was a great listening experience in one of the nicest hifi stores I've visitied. Hifi can be very fun, and it's not over. Thanks for reading!

Ben, it's great to get your insight.

When your ear gets used to Valves/Class A, it is very hard, if not impossible, to settle with anything else.

You are right to acknowledge that you cannot really judge a speaker until its tied to your amp. I mentioned Audio Note above, which sound very like what you are looking for...and would also add Living Voice and JM Renaud.

These brands need a little more searching out, but your ownership of the Jadis proves you are well able to do this.

Cno
 

egoBen

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I have been looking around for Audio Note speakers since you first mentionen them quite long ago but none of the ordinary hifi stores here have them. I will keep my eyes and eventually ears open!
 

CnoEvil

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Here are their dealerships: http://www.audionote.co.uk/distributor/dist_home_01.shtml

Failing that, contact martin.grennall@audionote.co.uk (if he can help, he will).
 

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