New amp and floorstanders for £1500

[Craig M.]

They also won't fill a 6 x 6m room (standmounts within budget).. Thats the point.

Of course they will. I have used them in similar conditions, also in schools, and at the NEC.

JC

Agreed. My room is about 8x5m and I sit about 5 metres from the speakers, my mates ADMs easily fill the space. I'd want a sub with them as I listen to a lot of bassy music, however the newer 9RSS model has noticeably more bass than my mates 9Ts and would probably be fine for most music - Goldfrapp, Fink and Nirvana all sounded good on them, at least. That was in a pretty big room, too - probably 6 or 7 metres long.

Just as an addition to the Actives don't sell comments, at least a part of that is down to reluctance on the part of dealers to sell them. One of my local shops don't sell them because "How would we sell someone an amp upgrade?". A shame really, given how good they can sound.

 

[relocated]

Its all a conspiracy.. Why don't you start your own shop just selling actives?

Do you think so? For me hifi is an enjoyment not a way of making a living.

 

[Frank Harvey]

David @ a hifidealer,

Ah yes, the chicken and egg explanation.

Thank god for forums, because otherwise I would never have been enlightened about MY hugely positive journey into actives. Little exposure in hifi magazines and blank faces, or worse, at every hifi dealer I have visited - including yours David.

It is a conundrum is it not? Stock and promote good actives on an equal basis and where does your DAC upgrade[for some actives],amp upgrade, cable upgrade, etc., etc., etc., go? Pretty much down the pipe to the sewage works [didn't use the word 'toilet' in case it is too rude] I would speculate.

So not the best way for traditional hifi dealerships probably? Since getting my AVI ADM 9Ts I haven't had the previously inevitable; if I just adjust this, or add that or get an even more ludicrously expensive cable of some sort feeling/need. 13 months of no add-ons or upgrades, the best period in my hifi life. But no add-on business for the hifi industry/dealers, so for ME there is certainly more than a little scepticism in the chicken and egg explanation.

Good of you to respond by the way. No histrionics either, jolly good.

I can only tell it from the point of view of how I see it. Personally, I've only had about four or five people ask me about active speakers in the 8 years I've been at Frank Harvey, and each time I will tell them that very few people ask about them and that they're just not that popular. You may have been one of them. If you were, you'll know that I don't speak negatively when I explain it.

Maybe we dont get asked for active speakers because it is a fairly new concept in the eyes of the consumer? Maybe it is because it is an unfamiliar concept in the eyes of the consumer? I don't know. But if it were your store, would you tie up thousands and thousands of pounds to offer a ranges of active speakers just because you feel it is the right way to go? History is littered with business failures because people thought they knew what people wanted.

Bear in mind that this active revolution that people are trying to initiate is niche at best. Lots of people may know about actives, but it is generally confined to forums, and specific forums at that. Hi-fi in general is a tiny minority of the UK population, and those that frequent forums is much smaller again. Those that know about actives are a fraction of those forum users. If actives were even half as popular as conventional speakers, it'd be worth considering keeping at least a range or two.

Some keep coming back to the upgrade thing. Upgrades don't keep us business, regardless of what anyone thinks. What keeps us in business is new customers, and happy new customers at that. Yes there are some people that are serial upgraders - they'll never change, but buying a bit here and there to upgrade doesn't keep a store open. This is why those nice little independent dealers who are out in the middle of nowhere have disappeared. They set up in nice small towns, or out on the coast. The population is small, and as mentioned. Those into buying a decent sound system are a small fraction of that. They reach saturation point, and unless they have a healthy online business going, they're only heading one way. Dealers situated inland, andfairly central have a larger catchment area and are more likely to survive. There's more to it than that, but that's a start. As I say, the next five years or so will define which direction this industry takes. But its all about new customers, not repeat customers. Not too many dealers realise that.

 

[chebby]

Maybe we dont get asked for active speakers because it is a fairly new concept in the eyes of the consumer? Maybe it is because it is an unfamiliar concept in the eyes of the consumer?

Nowadays there is almost a whole generation of people for whom seperates are the odd (or unfamiliar) concept because of the ubiquity of PC speakers and docks with integrated speakers/amplification.

To someone who has grown up with music from such devices it is natural that - when they upgrade - they expect to get bigger, better, more expensive versions of the PC speakers/docks they are used to.

A more expensive active/powered speaker, with amps built-in, would be assumed to be the norm. I have known many people (normal people rather than hi-fi anoraks) who have wondered what all the boxes 'do' (back when I owned seperates systems).

People with some knowledge of, familiarity with (and liking for), traditional hi-fi systems are going to get harder to find as they get older and the kids, teenagers and 20-somethings of today start to look for their high-quality systems of tomorrow.

I am not making any judgement of seperates/passive systems vs active systems in saying this. However - just as 1980s children grew up knowing only CDs and cassette Walkmans - 1990s and 2000s children have grown up with their music coming from computers with PC speakers and dock systems and MP3 players.

It is doubtful any significant portion of that generation will eventually 'convert' to seperates systems as hi-fis get ever more wireless and integrated.

Hi-fi dealerships will have to expect to deal more and more with their demands for less wires, less clutter and less boxes. Even Naim (the poster child of 1980s, flat-Earth, hi-fi purism) has recognised the direction things are going in. They have been very busy with integrated, one-box, wireless and networked products in the last few years. (Much to some of their traditional customer's disdain if you ever read their forums.)

The Linn Kiko (with it's active speakers and one box solution) is another example of what an early 2000s teen might be buying now if they want quality and exclusivity and they have a bit of cash.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hence hi-fi dealers now stock iPod docks, wireless speakers like those from Sonos and B&W, as well as PC speakers. Mini systems of all prices that stream music as well as take music from an iPod wirelessly. Small Sonos boxes that can be added to any hi-fi system to bring it up to date, as well as products with plug in modules, turning it into a streaming device as well as its primary function. And lets not forget virtually every AV receiver nowadays.

We appreciate that things are changing, and we're changing with it. But at the moment, conventional hi-fi systems (with or without a streamer) are still the majority.

We too doubt that many teenagers will grow up to buy a conventional hi-fi system. Who knows what they'll be buying. Whatever it is, it'll be something from a dealer that is changing to meet demands.

 

[lindsayt]

The answer to life, the universe and everything isn't 42. It's 9 or 40. For these are the model numbers used by AVI. Any hi-fi query and the answer's 9. Or 40. Doesn't matter what your room size is. Or your taste in music or hi-fi. The answer's always ADM9. Or 40. In the AVI universe anyway.

Unfortunately this is where paranoia takes you.

The answer to everything is not the AVI ADM 9RS/S or AVI ADM 40. But in many instances it is at least a consideration and as so few people are aware of the benefit of actives then owners of AVI ADMs put forward the suggestion. Not to wind you passive people up, because if you are as happy as I am then that is BRILLIANT. But because most of us[most=speculation] have years of 'not-quite-right' passive ownership that we have tinkered with to try and get the sound just right...

...I have to ask, what are you so scared about? The AVI ADMs won't eat your children, ravish your wife or constantly bleed your wallet dry. They were the answer to my 40 year journey, I was made aware of them via this forum and I am just passing on my experience so that others might not waste years and thousands £££££££££££ like I did.

Thank you for, hopefully, taking the time to read what I have said.

:cheer:

Paranoia?

Live? Don't talk to me about live music!

I'm not one of those passive people. I'm not so easily pigeon-holed when it comes to hi-fi. I'm listening to my actively bi-amped system now.

I have a couple of observations about the pro-AVI posts on these forums.

1. They never mention the drawbacks of active systems.

2. AVI speakers are recommended when they are a long way from being the optimum solution.

I am prepared to back up statement number 2 by offering to compare my speakers to a pair of AVI 9's or 40's in a large room. This large room can either be at my home in West Yorkshire or at the Scalford Hall hi-fi show in March 2013. The ADM 9's may well fill a large room. And fill it well enough for some people's tastes. My contention is that a decent pair of much larger speakers would fill such a room better.

 

[jcbrum]

Who knows what they'll be buying. Whatever it is, it'll be something from a dealer that is changing to meet demands.

Or direct from a factory outlet, and thereby avoiding the need to pay a very large dealer markup.

Lots of HiFi dealers are ceasing to trade because they can't compete in the developing marketplace.

JC

 

[jcbrum]

My contention is that a decent pair of much larger speakers would fill such a room better.

Many people just do not want large speakers, and racks of techy boxes, in their living space, and are glad to be rid of all the room-filling clutter of yesteryear HiFi.

JC

 

[moon]

My contention is that a decent pair of much larger speakers would fill such a room better.

Many people just do not want large speakers, and racks of techy boxes, in their living space, and are glad to be rid of all the room-filling clutter of yesteryear HiFi.

JC

true, but doesn't the OP want a pair of floorstanders and a techy box attached to them ?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Who knows what they'll be buying. Whatever it is, it'll be something from a dealer that is changing to meet demands.

Or direct from a factory outlet, and thereby avoiding the need to pay a very large dealer markup.

Lots of HiFi dealers are ceasing to trade because they can't compete in the developing marketplace.

JC

"Mark ups" aren't necessarily as large as many people think (especially the anti-dealer mob). Most people expect a discount nowadays, so that 5-15% gone straight away, and if you have to match another dealer, you could be talking more. Add credit card charges, or even worse, interest free charges, and there's not really that much left. It's not that dealers can't compete, it because some are giving away too much discount for others to keep up with.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Many people just do not want large speakers, and racks of techy boxes, in their living space, and are glad to be rid of all the room-filling clutter of yesteryear HiFi.

JC

That's all been changing for the last few years. Those with conventional systems are adding Sonos Connects and Squeezeboxes (if they're not adding on a full size streamer). Others are buying one box solutions like Naim Unitis and UnitiLites, right down to budget Denon CEOL systems - I'm guessing the next replacement for the Denon DM39 will stream too. As someone else mentioned, Naim are moving more toward the one box route (although they're continuing their conventional hi-fi as it is still in demand). More manufacturers are building DACs into their amplifiers, and more boxes can stream music nowadays, or at least have the option of a plug in streaming module, like Primare.

Having said that, I would still say that at least half of our customers are still using and wanting conventional multi-box systems, and last year we sold a record number of record decks (ranging from budget up to high end).

 

[lindsayt]

My contention is that a decent pair of much larger speakers would fill such a room better.

Many people just do not want large speakers, and racks of techy boxes, in their living space, and are glad to be rid of all the room-filling clutter of yesteryear HiFi.

JC

Many people don't have 6m x 6m listening rooms! The OP does!

How far are the front baffles of your AVI's from the rear wall of your listening room? How far are the inner side faces of your AVI's from the side walls of you listening room? Do you have any large objects placed between the rear or sides of your AVI's and your rear and side walls?

I'll get onto the racks of techy boxes in my next post...

 

[steve_1979]

I listen to all kinds of music but do like early 90's house music, with lots of piano sections and female vocals!

House music like all electronic dance music requires lots of deep bass to sound best. This means you'll want to use either big speakers on their own or small speakers with a subwoofer.

I suggest that you have a listen to the exellent Acoustic Energy ProSat and ProSub 2.1 system. clicky

Another option which is slightly over budget are these Event Opals on Ebay for £1512 plus £144 postage. Event Opals are fantastic sounding speakers that are capable of producing very good quality deep bass. You'll be hard pushed to find anything better than these for the money IMO. clicky

These are both active speaker systems so they'll need a pre-amp to control the volume. clicky

 

[the record spot]

Rather hope the OP goes with his first inclination and tries out the Q Acoustics 2050i. A big speaker, subterranean bass and with a good amp will be nicely controlled. Well under budget (Steve those Event Opals are nice enough, but the OP's budget is £1500, so your postage and the tin box volume controller adds another £200+ to the budget) and will sound excellent. I wouldn't be fooled by the price either, the Qs perform well above their asking price. Give 'em a spin I say!

 

[jcbrum]

. . . true, but doesn't the OP want a pair of floorstanders and a techy box attached to them ?

No, this is what he said in his opening post . . .

"am I right in thinking floorstanders will be needed for a room this size?"

He then asked for alternative suggestions. I don't think he was right in thinking floorstanders to be mandatory. The person who suggested AVI ADM9RSS speakers was right. They will do the job.

I attested that my personal experience confirmed that.

At the NEC, in one of the major halls, they produced an SPL of 100dB at a distance of 10m, (Ashley phoned me to confirm this today), and the tonal quality was superb, certainly much better than the large 5 foot tall Wilson Benesch floorstanders with which they were compared (probable cost in excess of 10k irrc).

It was a perfectly valid suggestion. imo.

JC

 

[BigColz]

Jesus christ this is boring.. Hifi shops have a mark up like every other shop on the highstreet.. They offer services, advise and 'try before you buy' and offer returns policy just like clothes shops, shoe shops and every other freaking shop! They have to pay rent, staff, utilities etc it's the basis of our whole retail sector and economy.. It's called supply andf demand! Which is why they don't stock actives as no one asks for them. Yes online sales are cheaper and sometimes the way too go but if we all shoped online there would be no shops.. They are often very competitive and match online prices anyway so whats your beef?? Actives are mainly in pro audio so go to a pro audio shop! Most people want the many advantages of traditional Hifi and in this example WANT floorstanders to comfortably fill his larger listing room.. Bye :wave:

 

[Paul.]

At the NEC, in one of the major halls, they produced an SPL of 100dB at a distance of 10m, (Ashley phoned me to confirm this today), and the tonal quality was superb, certainly much better than the large 5 foot tall Wilson Benesch floorstanders with which they were compared (probable cost in excess of 10k irrc).

It was a perfectly valid suggestion. imo.

see this is the sort of stuff which makes us suspicious. My position is that I don't doubt that the AVI sound great, but I am in no position to ever hear them as I like home cinema too much and wouldn't want to waste the dealers time and my deisel to demo them. BUT, how can a speaker which according to its specs cuts off at 60htz possibly sound better than a full range floor stander for many types of music? If that was the case, why would AVI make a floor stander?

My initial comment was flippant, and sorry to everyone if I accidently started this rubbish again, but I stand by my initial assessment. That is a funny looking floor stander! It later transpired that the OP likes 90s house music, but it is not un common that people like thumping bass (definitely more common than transparency) and if someone is asking about floor standers it's probably for good reason. Occam's razor and all that.

Finaly, Ashley is calling you? You got a landline in his building or something? :rofl:

 

[spiny norman]

(Ashley phoned me to confirm this today)

 

[hoopsontoast]

Direct line......

 

[jcbrum]

Finaly, Ashley is calling you? You got a landline in his building or something? :rofl:

Just a mobile phone, like most other people.

Ashley lives at the top of a steep hill in the Cotswolds. He was snowed in at home, and I assume he was passing the time by browsing the forums. He saw the post about ADM loudspeakers in big rooms and rang to confirm the SPL readings which AVI had measured at the NEC.

JC

 

[richardw42]

I think some people find it utterly bewildering that a manufacturer should have any other contact with customers other than taking their cash.

 

[Paul.]

I think some people find it utterly bewildering that a manufacturer should have any other contact with customers other than taking their cash.

Well I must admit, don't think I have ever had a manufacturer ring up for a natter! Jonny Ive, if your bored mate, give us a ring I have a slow day today...

 

[richardw42]

It's quite nice though.

Ashley personally delivered both pairs of my speakers and got them going.

 

[relocated]

Paul,

This is where part of the arguments stem from. Not properly reading the post or not recalling it properly or taking the title over the post.

The OP said, "am I right in thinking floorstanders will be needed for a room this size?" and also asked,"has anyone got any other suggestions or opinions?"

This is not a pop at you. All through this discussion a number of people have been arguing on a foundation of sand. The OP was asking if floorstanders were needed, not, that the OP exclusively wanted them and also asked for any other suggestions or opinions.

You [but I doubt it] and or others may consider this to be pedantic but it goes to the fundamental basis of this thread.

 

[Paul.]

Paul,

This is where part of the arguments stem from. Not properly reading the post or not recalling it properly or taking the title over the post.

The OP said, "am I right in thinking floorstanders will be needed for a room this size?" and also asked,"has anyone got any other suggestions or opinions?"

This is not a pop at you. All through this discussion a number of people have been arguing on a foundation of sand. The OP was asking if floorstanders were needed, not, that the OP exclusively wanted them and also asked for any other suggestions or opinions.

You [but I doubt it] and or others may consider this to be pedantic but it goes to the fundamental basis of this thread.

Its not that we ignored it, its just that we believe the answer to be a resounding yes. Yes, you probably do need floorstanders in that situation. This assumption was justified later in the thread when music taste revealed either a Sub or floorstanders were nessesary. Post number 14 out of 90 odd was

Wow, thanks for all the links. Some serious thinking to do.

I listen to all kinds of music but do like early 90's house music, with lots of piano sections and female vocals!

So, 75 posts ago you may have had a point.

The argument is not really about volume, but bass responce. Bass will suffer in a large space and that is not to do with volume.