My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

[Anonymous]

OK.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Room interaction can't make the bass lower than the speaker can produce. It can sound full, controlled, boomy etc, but it can't be lower that the driver can produce. It's that that is the problem - my speakers don't do real low bass, but the bass sounds more than sufficient in my room.

 

[CnoEvil]

Room interaction can't make the bass lower than the speaker can produce. It can sound full, controlled, boomy etc, but it can't be lower that the driver can produce. It's that that is the problem - my speakers don't do real low bass, but the bass sounds more than sufficient in my room.

Audio Note AN/E go as low as 18 Hz (at -6 dB), which I don't think is possible without room interaction...but I'm no expert.

 

[the record spot]

I didn't say it could AL, but I don't want a boomy speaker, so I needed one that delivers well controlled bass, that is tight, gives a good impression of a bassline without the flab and sits well in the lounge at home.

So, when I hear Chris Squire's bass string at the beginning of Starship Trooper, I want to hear the "thrumm" of the string vibrating as he's hit it. I want to hear a realistic (to my ears) thump in a tom-tom when it's been struck and the DC4 manages this. Sure a 4" driver won't give you PA levels, but it can do a good facsimile up to a point. The TNT Audio review brings this out more as it's a longer review.

Apologies to the OP, who has probably left the building by now, that your thread was completely derailed by an argument over an adjective, however, the point is that it's best to make your own mind up. Opinions, as shown, vary!

 

[chebby]

Room interaction can't make the bass lower than the speaker can produce. It can sound full, controlled, boomy etc, but it can't be lower that the driver can produce. It's that that is the problem - my speakers don't do real low bass, but the bass sounds more than sufficient in my room.

Audio Note AN/E go as low as 18 Hz (at -6 dB), which I don't think is possible without room interaction...but I'm no expert.

Yes, but with an 8" bass driver in a large(ish) cabinet of 31" (Height) x 14" (Width) x 10.5" (Depth) with a wide baffle compared to most modern loudspeaker designs (the cabinets are wider than they are deep).

That, and it's 95dB efficiency, would ensure significantly deeper bass than a 4" driver (with some 'piston' area already lost to a concentric tweeter - as opposed to a dust-cap - in the case of the Tannoys) in a much smaller and thinner cabinet with hardly any baffle area to interact with compared to that of the AN-Es.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes, but with an 8" bass driver.

My Kef Refs have 2 x 8" drivers, but with their inert cabinet can only manage 35 Hz ((@ -6 dB):

http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/reference_series/fact_sheet/Floorstanding/205.2/index.html:

 

[CnoEvil]

That, and it's 95dB efficiency, would ensure significantly deeper bass than a 4" driver (with some 'piston' area already lost to a concentric tweeter - as opposed to a dust-cap - in the case of the Tannoys) in a much smaller and thinner cabinet with hardly any baffle area to interact with compared to that of the AN-Es.

The only point I'm trying to make, is that the room can add to the bass, especially if the cabinet is designed that way.

 

[Anonymous]

It's my understanding that What Hi-Fi test small speakers in similar sized rooms to those they're likely to be used in.

 

[the record spot]

They probably do, but rooms are furnished differently, and laid out differently. Mine has the speakers out by around three feet from the back wall, facing my sofa, there's a window with heavy curtains to my right and a big armchair to the left that sits opposite the windows and looks out to the sea. The room is also carpeted and the seats all have heavy throws and cushions. The speakers themselves are about six or seven feet apart.

My room isnt acoustically treated (it's a home), nor is it bereft of furnishings and if anything, the area where the stereo is sited is more like room 3 (the other half being given over to the dining table and the sideboard) than room 1. http://www.whathifi.com/how-we-test

 

[BenLaw]

These minituare Tannoy's have 4 inch drivers and only go down to 67 Hz apparently, they cannot reproduce deep bass, they just won't move enough air.

thats the thing, your talking about 'shifting air' thats volume, its not frequency range

From any other poster, this level of ignorance would be staggering.

 

[dumbledore]

Another worrying aspect of the DC4s that can be even more detrimental then lack of bass is that the reviewers suggest that when driven hard they can sound bad. This is quite possible as the 4 inch speaker can be easily overwhelmed at high volumes. The cone movement needs to be significant to reproduce bass notes so the speaker will run out of movent with a bit of power and low frequencies. However, the speaker still needs to reproduce the delicates mids while doing this. Now imagine if the speker has reached maximum excursion then at that point the speaker will start distort. All those delicate midrange frequencies will be blurred causing the speker to sound stressed. Is because of this reason I suggested to go and get a subwoofer and stop driving the DC4's with any frequencies below 80-100Hz. This will stop the cone have excessive movements when driven hard and allowing it to go louder without sounding stressed. Thinking about this, in fact any small speakers that are mated with a subwoofer should have some sort of filter to stop low frequencies getting to them as they cannot be reproduced anyway and affect the rest of the sound negativelly if allowed to get though.

 

[the record spot]

I imagine most people wouldn't drive them hard, to that extent, but in my experience, they can go to a decent level when partnered with a decent powered amp. However, I draw your attention to the TNT Audio review again which comments on volume levels of a kind I likely don't go to. In the interests of some balance here:-

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/tannoy_dc4_e.html

 

[the record spot]

OK.

Excellent. Missed this first time around. Glad that's sorted out now. Cheers Max.

 

[Anonymous]

Tariqv

I'd be inclined to change your speakers if you're still not satisfied after repositioning them. I'm a firm believer in building a system outwards, thus you can change the last component in the chain to 'balance' any extremes or coldness/warmness the previous separate had. The M-DAC is a quality product and handles flac files very well. The Roksan Kandy K2 once again is an excellent amp with the ability to handle many different genres of music as well as being easy to partner.

I'd trial some warmer speakers, that are more dynamic and alive, ones that are also known for creating a wider soundstage. Obviously your room/furniture will be affecting the acoustics.

Also, don't forget, the Tannoy Dual Concentric design also means that the tweeters don't quite fill the room and create as wide soundstage as standard dome shaped tweeters, thus the speakers overall will have a tighter, more directional sweetspot (as you've found by repositioning them).

I'd be very interested to hear your views if you do audition any other speakers as I was also looking at the Roksan Kandy K2 amplifier.

Note to the other lads - let's try and discuss without name calling? We can all differ in our views and argue our points respectfully, whether we agree with each other or not!

 

[CnoEvil]

Also, don't forget, the Tannoy Dual Concentric design also means that the tweeters don't quite fill the room and create as wide soundstage as standard dome shaped tweeters, thus the speakers overall will have a tighter, more directional sweetspot (as you've found by repositioning them).

It is my understanding that Tannoy's Dual Concentric and Kef's Uni-Q drivers in fact do the opposite. Since the sound comes from the same "point source", it is "time aligned" in all directions, thus giving more coherent off-axis listening and so a bigger sweetspot.

I agree about trying warmer speakers, and suggested some at the start of the thread.

 

[the record spot]

Very true Cno, the soundstage is wide, and far from narrowly defined. I'm often surprised at how wide sounds can be dispersed, especially for TV or movies. Not the first time I've jumped hearing at sound that appears to be coming from the far left of the room! I imagine that the DC6T would do the same.

 

[Anonymous]

CnoEvil and The Record Spot - interesting you both say that, and it could be true. I'm just going on a review (which is just one person's interpretation of course, albeit a very experienced reviewer of loudspeakers):

HiFi Choice:

One key characteristic of the DC driver’s horn-loaded tweeter is that the treble is focused into a 90-degree cone, rather than the much wider dispersion shown by most speakers with conventional dome tweeters. This is neither ‘right’ nor ‘wrong’, but it is ‘different’; sharpening the image precision and focus, but diluting the illusion that musicians are in the listening room.

Also, please note, I wasn't talking about the overall soundstage - just the tweeter...I should have written: thus the tweeters will have a tighter, more directional sweetspot.

 

[CnoEvil]

CnoEvil and The Record Spot - interesting you both say that, and it could be true. I'm just going on a review (which is just one person's interpretation of course, albeit a very experienced reviewer of loudspeakers):

HiFi Choice:

One key characteristic of the DC driver’s horn-loaded tweeter is that the treble is focused into a 90-degree cone, rather than the much wider dispersion shown by most speakers with conventional dome tweeters. This is neither ‘right’ nor ‘wrong’, but it is ‘different’; sharpening the image precision and focus, but diluting the illusion that musicians are in the listening room.

Also, please note, I wasn't talking about the overall soundstage - just the tweeter...I should have written: thus the tweeters will have a tighter, more directional sweetspot.

We are probably biassed, as he owns Tannoy and I own Kef. :shifty:

If you want to read Kef's take on it, read this: http://www.kef.com/html/gb/innovation/uni-q/index.html

Here is a reviewer discussing Tannoy's Dual Concentric: http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/tannoy-concentric_e.html

The Tannoy's tweeter is Horn-Loaded, which seems to be responsible for the reviewer's observations, so I see your point.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

These minituare Tannoy's have 4 inch drivers and only go down to 67 Hz apparently, they cannot reproduce deep bass, they just won't move enough air.

thats the thing, your talking about 'shifting air' thats volume, its not frequency range

From any other poster, this level of ignorance would be staggering.

Ben Law if you're gonna quote me, then make the assumption I'm ignorant, pls be man enuff to correct me, enlighten me with your wisdom - clarify my ignorants.........c'mon.

 

[BenLaw]

Driver size is absolutely related to the frequency that it can produce. By your rationale a 1" driver could go as low as an 18" driver, just it would be quieter. That is what I was describing as ignorance.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Driver size is absolutely related to the frequency that it can produce. By your rationale a 1" driver could go as low as an 18" driver, just it would be quieter. That is what I was describing as ignorance.

Then why stop at suggesting i'm more ignorant than anybody else, would it kill you to have added that or just said that?

Driver size is relavent to frequency - yes, but deep 'bass' - have you heard one of those Pure portable radios well placed in a room playing at a normal level? with its 2inch driver or heard a decent pair of earphones with their 1inch drivers?

at low volume or even normal volume most of the deepest frequencys are not heard try running a sweep test on your speakers, in fact at higher volumes they are felt more than heard - deep bass is an interesting concept and is open to interpritation - most people see deep bass as loud bass, probably distorted being pumped out via 12inch+ woofers

in the context of this thread there is nothing ignorant in what I've said.

 

[Tariqv]

If I may get back to the topic Id like to post the result I have achieved by micro adjusting the speakers and pointing them exactly - as per suggestions from Tannoy manual - towards the listener, i.e myself. I must say although I can hear the music much better than before there still is no feel of the music, it does not feel as if the system is a dedicated hifi for music, does not excite and fill the room.

Do you beleive it is a problem of system matching or must there be something basic that I may be doing?

Thanks.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Look at speaker change.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol..... just wondered if that troll had replied....sorry for dragging this thread off at a tangent

Anyhow, its your source - what bit rate are you storeing your music, I'm not familiar with DACs and the like as I still prefer hard media. But the Roksan amp can drive speakers, when I auditioned a bunch of mid priced amps it was the only one that you could feel the bass with. ( only its design, the lack of tone controls & no 2nd pair of speaker outs put me off it)

See if you can get your hands on a CD player and see how it sounds - you'll be getting the full resoloution of the music so could compare. Or it could be that the refined sound of 'hifi' is not your cup of tea - it takes a while to get use to.

 

[Tariqv]

After trying many different types of music, Unfortunately I am still unsatisfied with my system. Since I have the full 5.0 speakers from Tannoy ( the sub is a jbl), I do not want to change the speakers; besides I read in a review that the Tannoy floorstanders convey the characteristics of the amp which is connected to it so I wonder if the Naim nait XS would solve my problems; i.e. lack of snap and sparkle ( do forgive my description but I hope you get the idea) when the instruments hit and the lack of richness in sound (analytical and unexciting).

I do not have the opportunity to audition the XS with my Tannoys so any opinion would be highly appreciated.