My first Hi-Fi system doesnt sound quite right

[the record spot]

Yes, I read the review too, did you think I bought blind?

I tired them out in the shop (The Home Cinema Centre in Edinburgh) and since I've brought them home, they've been excellent. Put them out in a room, maybe a couple of feet from a wall and let them breathe and they'll do fine. I imagine not in a large room, but mine point across the narrow width of my room, either side of my TV.

What kind of bass are you expecting? Lean, none at all? You tell me what you think you mean by bass and I'll give you mine now, how's that? Reviews are but a guide and no replacement for hearing for yourself.

My reference recordings are The Yes Album (Starship Trooper), Genesis A Trick of the Tail, Julie Feeney's Pages album, which is voice and strings alone, as well as Zep's Celebration Day. See also Nouvelle Vague and the Mahler CBSO/Ratlle 14CD boxset from EMI. Pretty decent range of stuff no?

Bass is not wanting; deep, tuneful, articulate. If it was, I wouldn't have these speakers, as I don't like a "lean" sound. I trust that covers it off from my perspective well enough, I did my reading up alright thanks, I did plenty of listening too.

 

[Anonymous]

They have 4 inch drivers, it isn't possible to get deep bass from 4 inch drivers. I'm glad you like them, but they're bass light, it's physics!

 

[the record spot]

It's this fundamentally: please don't lecture me about something you've read off a website against what I've got in my living room just now and hear day in, day out. What works - or doesn't - in the WHF, or any other mag's - demo room doesn't pan out that it will be that way across the board in every room. Clearly, that's a fallacy and WHF don't suggest it does. I'm not going to get bogged down in the physics of it all, or the kind of "deep" bass you're talking about, but the bass the DC4 produces is more than enough and very believable.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not lecturing you. Your speakers may be very nice sounding, I don't know, I've not heard them. But they have 4 inch drivers, and thus, relative to other speakers, with bigger drivers, like the DC6's, will lack bass, as What Hi-Fi state.

Now perhaps you're not very experienced and haven't heard deep bass? If so you are lacking any kind of meaningful yardstick, and can be forgiven for thinking your speakers are giving you deep bass. I suspect that more experienced people will in turn find them lacking in bass, as they would all speakers with 4 inch drivers.

 

[the record spot]

I think you're a bit of a troll personally, but let's assume you're not and are just new.

Last system was a Sansui AU-717 with a pair of Mission 752s, many, many demos over the years including Tannoy Westminster Royals, since about 1979, heard and thought Q Acoustics 2050i speakers and think they're brilliant. Plus countless live gigs in various venues since 1976 and there isn't a speaker out there that does the kind of bass you get in the live environment.

What you forget is that I'm talking to you from experience, mine and a good 30-odd years of it to play with. I know what I'm talking about thanks.

Welcome to the forum by the way, but you clearly don't know everything and quoting what you think should happen and telling me I'm wrong when I hear what I hear every day doesn't make you i) right or ii) clever.

The simple answer is of course for you to have a pair of DC4s set up in a small room, with the right kit and find out for yourself. I imagine that won't be happening however.

 

[Anonymous]

4 Inch drivers cannot reproduce deep bass. It doesn't matter if you've been listening to Hi-Fi for 60 years, they still cannot reproduce deep bass. So you mustn't know what deep bass sounds like. I'm fairly confident that the What Hi-Fi reviewers do!

Goodnight and good luck to you sir.

 

[the record spot]

Plainly, you have an inability to read and/or are a troll. I suspect the latter.

 

[the record spot]

Plainly, you have an inability to read and/or are a troll. I suspect the latter.

I should apologise for the above post - this wasn't a discussion about bass in a speaker, it was about semantics. And neither of us will convince the other.

I know what deep bass sounds like so being lectured (sorry, you are) that I don't is a non-starter. Tannoy Westminster Royals kind of go pretty deep, so does a good PA (Turbosound springs to mind), but good standmounters aren't shy either. Obviously a smaller box won't deliver PA or Royals' levels, but I never claimed that the DC4 did or should. My point is that the bass is better than the WHF or Hi FI World reviews indicate. In a smaller room (mine are about 7 feet from me) and well positioned, in this case toed-in slightly, and sitting out from the wall (probably three feet in my case) the DC4 is very respectable. The Zep Celebration DVD is brilliant and I feel no need for a subwoofer.

Beyond that, there is no debate IMO. Anyone looking for such a speaker should absolutely shortlist them.

 

[shafesk]

Hi there, well I think the problem here is that you've matched up too many neutral-ish components together which has led to a clinical sound. I would be thinking of changing either the amp or the speakers but I think the Kandy is a fine amp. The dc6s while great, needs a warm or sympathetic amp. I would recommend something like the Dynaudio 2/6s or the 3/7s if you like floorstanders (although the 2/6s are better in my opinion and is enough for most rooms). Alternatively, if you are looking for an amp change then I think a Cayin a55t or a50t would be great with the tannoys.

 

[shafesk]

I'm not lecturing you. Your speakers may be very nice sounding, I don't know, I've not heard them. But they have 4 inch drivers, and thus, relative to other speakers, with bigger drivers, like the DC6's, will lack bass, as What Hi-Fi state.

Now perhaps you're not very experienced and haven't heard deep bass? If so you are lacking any kind of meaningful yardstick, and can be forgiven for thinking your speakers are giving you deep bass. I suspect that more experienced people will in turn find them lacking in bass, as they would all speakers with 4 inch drivers.

Well from what I can gather, you are new in the forum and possibly hi-fi. There are somethings that those new to hi-fi tend to rely on more than more experienced audiophiles and one of those things are specs. There are many things you are not considering when you are talking about a 4 inch driver, you are not taking into account the enclosure type and the type of ports they have employed. I have heard 8 inch drivers in sealed boxes that don't have deep bass to speak about. I have also heard 4 inch drivers that give you a good thumping in a medium sized room. Certainly not subwoofer type bass but speakers like Dynaudio 2/7s give out huge bass and is deep enough to let you know that you are not missing anything. Then again I've barely heard speakers which do as good a job as a great subwoofer when it comes to deep bass.

You have to remember here that most of the music doesn't extend to the whole range of the human hearing, most music doesn't really have very deep bass (unless its electronic) that would require the aid of a subwoofer to help the speakers reach lower frequencies.

 

[BigH]

[My reference recordings are The Yes Album (Starship Trooper), Genesis A Trick of the Tail, Julie Feeney's Pages album, which is voice and strings alone, as well as Zep's Celebration Day.]

I don't have any problems with the above (although I don't think Yes/Genesis will push a sytem much) but you may want to add a few more to test a system, when demoing my hifi I found that some recordings tripped parts of the system, for instance I heard some Wharfedale speakers (all these were in the budget to midrange price then about £200 in 1994), they sounded great on Van Morrison but when play Little Feat which has an opening bass guitar solo they went to jelly. Also Arcam cd player when playing some jazz did not sound right (double bass), switch to Marantz 63SE and its fine. I tried about 10 speakers at different times, Ruark, Castle, Mission, Wharfedale etc. Ended up withe the Missions in the end. I have a long list of cds I take, just odd parts of tracks to test the system and then when happy play whole tracks:

Little Feat: Last Record Album track 2. Bass guitar

Fleetwood Mac: Rumours, first few tracks cymbals

Mary Balck: No Frontiers - Columbus female vocals and natural sounding instruments

Shelley Manne: Blackhawk Vol 2 Track 2, double bass does not sound right on some cds players.

Graham Parker - Squeezing Out Sparks any track male vocals

Gatz Bartz - There goes the Neighborhood - Sart 1st track, complex modern jazz.

 

[the record spot]

Hi BigH,

those recordings work fine - the bass in Starship Trooper at the beginning of the track has a deep rolling sound on the pluck of Chris Squire's bass. All of A Trick of the Tail is a good test - the recording is somewhat bright, though I have Barry Diament's excellent mastering he did for Atco in the States. Julie Feeney as said is female vocal with strings and nothing else, so you get a good mix, violin, cello, etc. I've a few hundred CDs so can pick and choose - there's a nice recording I landed recently by the Curtis Counce group - a jazz outfit with a recording from the late 50s which is very good. The EMI boxset with Simon Rattle and the CBSO doing all of Mahler's Symphonies (14 CD set) is also worth a look. Bit long for a shop demo mind. 🙂

Thanks for the titles, I'll check a few out.

 

[BigH]

Interesting, I do have Trick of, never considered it bright but playing now I see what you mean. Not familar with that Yes album, only Close to the Edge, Fragile. I will check out Curtis Counce never heard of them.

I have a few others that I use like Altan - Harvest Storm - 1-2 tracks, lively Irish music. John Coltrane Love Supreme track 3 is quite challenging. Yarkin Ensemble - Trach 1- Turkish/World music, some great flutes on that.

The Mary Black is not the most exciting music to me but on a good system it really comes to life, although the reviews were not great i see on Steve Hoffman site it is sort after and is being remastered by Mobile Fidelity soon.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not lecturing you. Your speakers may be very nice sounding, I don't know, I've not heard them. But they have 4 inch drivers, and thus, relative to other speakers, with bigger drivers, like the DC6's, will lack bass, as What Hi-Fi state.

Now perhaps you're not very experienced and haven't heard deep bass? If so you are lacking any kind of meaningful yardstick, and can be forgiven for thinking your speakers are giving you deep bass. I suspect that more experienced people will in turn find them lacking in bass, as they would all speakers with 4 inch drivers.

Well from what I can gather, you are new in the forum and possibly hi-fi. There are somethings that those new to hi-fi tend to rely on more than more experienced audiophiles and one of those things are specs. There are many things you are not considering when you are talking about a 4 inch driver, you are not taking into account the enclosure type and the type of ports they have employed. I have heard 8 inch drivers in sealed boxes that don't have deep bass to speak about. I have also heard 4 inch drivers that give you a good thumping in a medium sized room. Certainly not subwoofer type bass but speakers like Dynaudio 2/7s give out huge bass and is deep enough to let you know that you are not missing anything. Then again I've barely heard speakers which do as good a job as a great subwoofer when it comes to deep bass.

You have to remember here that most of the music doesn't extend to the whole range of the human hearing, most music doesn't really have very deep bass (unless its electronic) that would require the aid of a subwoofer to help the speakers reach lower frequencies.

Hi, I'm not new to Hi-Fi. The rear ported Dynaudio's you mentioned certainly do reproduce deep bass for their size (they have a 6,5 inch driver BTW) , However in my experience and to my knowledge, no speakers containing one 4 inch driver can reproduce similar bass.

Specs don't always tell the whole story, no, but when it comes to bass reproduction, they will give a pretty good indication not of what you can get, but what you can't get, and with a single 4 inch driver in a diminuative enclosure, albeit rear ported, you will not get deep bass, contrary to what the other poster says, and tallying with the What HiFi review.

 

[the record spot]

The "other" poster did not claim that the DC4 bass waas going to be through the floor. I said that it does bass. And well at that. You seem to think that bass is beyond its capabilities. Plainly, you are either unwilling to see a different perspective from beyond the end of your nose or you're trolling after all. Simple as.

As stated previously, this isn't a discussion about bass. This is a discussion about semantics and one person who is unable or unwilling to recognise the points I have put to him.

 

[Overdose]

It could be the quality of the recordings themselves.

In fact, if some music sounds right, then I'm certain of it. The recordings are the only variables.

 

[Anonymous]

The "other" poster did not claim that the DC4 bass waas going to be through the floor. I said that it does bass. And well at that. You seem to think that bass is beyond its capabilities. Plainly, you are either unwilling to see a different perspective from beyond the end of your nose or you're trolling after all. Simple as.

As stated previously, this isn't a discussion about bass. This is a discussion about semantics and one person who is unable or unwilling to recognise the points I have put to him.

You said

The DC4, incidentally, does not lack bass. Far from it in fact.

And

they give good bass. Deep, tuneful and controlled.

I said that they can't do deep bass, and they can't, you can't get deep bass from tiny speakers with 4 inch drivers.

As I said, I'm glad you like them, but you're in a hole digging deeper if you're going to keep insisting that contrary to the laws of physics, they reproduce deep bass, it's silly.

 

[the record spot]

As stated previously, this isn't a discussion about bass,. This is a discussion about semantics and one person who is unwilling or unable to recognise the points I have put to him. Hint: context.

 

[Anonymous]

OK.

 

[the record spot]

So long as you're clear on that, it is.

 

[dumbledore]

Let me remake a point I made earlier.

DC4 lowest note is 68Hz.

Take a simple instrument like a piano. The lowest ten keys make notes below 68Hz with lowest arounf 27Hz. This means DC4 cannot actually reproduce these notes. This fact for some is unexaptable and therefore opt for larger speaker that can.

The good thing about piano it makes lots of harmonics and you will hear something but that will be harmonics the main note you will not here. So if somebody plays the piano on those keys DC4 will not go completelly silent it will just reproduce harmonics.

I am afraid if you want to get to those notes you will need a subwoofer of somesort to complement the DC4's. If you do that it will be advisable to acutally filter anything below 100Hz when driving the DC4's and let the subwoofer handle anything below 100Hz.

Ultimatelly what we suggest is that you can get better sound out of DC4's if you try.

 

[Anonymous]

So long as you're clear on that, it is.

Tut tut. Have to get in the last word, eh? I was letting it go even though you've insulted me several times needlessly and refuse to accept reality.

Please make a buffoon of yourself without me from here on in, you're doing a good enough job up to now. Deep bass :doh:

 

[altruistic.lemon]

They're right, a 4" bass driver can't reproduce low bass, but it will the harmonics, and from that our brains deduce the actual note, or close to. It's covered in some material on psychoacoustics.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

This bass argument is actually quite interesting

We need to define 'deep bass' - I have to say in my experience I have heard small drivers produce deep bass from smallish boxes, in fact my speakers have pretty small drivers ( the boxes measure 80x17x30 the bass cone being 6inches) and they produce bass you can feel rolling through the floor when ready.

Its everything to do with the power being fed to them and the quality of the bass being produced, loud distorted bass from large drivers give the the impression of 'deep bass' ( its that what the eyes see we assume thing). Although its usually just the volume and the air these drivers can shift,

Where as well controlled textured, tunefull bass from small speakers may not be percieved as deep bass, but close your eye's (remove the visuals and you may be suprised at the frequencies passing through your cloths and through your chest which when aided by a well dampened room will suprise most in a blind test.

I think this is a great 'Readers challenge' for the mag..

 

[the record spot]

Let me remake a point I made earlier.

DC4 lowest note is 68Hz.

Take a simple instrument like a piano. The lowest ten keys make notes below 68Hz with lowest arounf 27Hz. This means DC4 cannot actually reproduce these notes. This fact for some is unexaptable and therefore opt for larger speaker that can.

The good thing about piano it makes lots of harmonics and you will hear something but that will be harmonics the main note you will not here. So if somebody plays the piano on those keys DC4 will not go completelly silent it will just reproduce harmonics.

I am afraid if you want to get to those notes you will need a subwoofer of somesort to complement the DC4's. If you do that it will be advisable to acutally filter anything below 100Hz when driving the DC4's and let the subwoofer handle anything below 100Hz.

Ultimatelly what we suggest is that you can get better sound out of DC4's if you try.

Hi dumbledore, yes, indeed you could, though for my own needs that's not a requirement. For others who particularly enjoy solo piano music (or the like) then a sub would be very useful. My comments aren't about the DC4 being able to produce floor shaking bass, they never were, but the DC4 does deliver a better bass than I expected on the back of the reviews I'd read and do deeper than I'd expected. This is not a lean sounding speaker in my experience.

Of course, this is in the context of my room and the demo room when I bought them, and only compared against Epos M12s, Castle 1s, and two others that I can't remember now. They stacked up well against larger speakers though and also in my room (where they fire across the width of the room) where they perform admirably.

Those comments on this thread should have been read in that context (and as I'd made clear in others on this forum). They weren't.