my DREAM system. oh, maybe one day...

[bluebrazil]

AlmaataKZ:

bluebrazil:brilliant thread almaatakz, its great how you have progressed and how you have illustrated this, you own some beautiful pieces of kit there. i to have a chordette gem and from what i can follow you have had yours upgraded to apt x spec. did i understand this correctly and if so how did you do this? i am due a phone upgrade soon and would seriously consider an apt x phone if i can upgrade my gem. also tho you said you havent bought a dongle yet for streaming so i guess you havent heard if it makes a difference or not (is this still the case?) but all the reviews seem to be positive, any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, I did manage to upgrade my Gem to apt-x but Chord does not do these upgrades any more. I think I just slipped in before they stopped it. I still do not have a dongle and actually the Gem is now redundant as I struggle to find a use for it since I got the Benchmark and the Squeezbox Touch (I will use the money from the Gem to fund the receiver purchase). That is a real shame as the Gem sounds very very good (via USB). The improvement that the Gem brough has triggered this whole upgrade.

thanks for your reply, i agree the gem sounds a lot better using the usb input and i was hoping for something close to this via an apt x phone. i love the gem but i'd rather stream via bluetooth sometimes than have my computer switched on and the fan running. oh well, better see what the arcam dac offers i suppose

 

[AlmaataKZ]

After several days of listening, here are my impressions about the sound of the C4 sub.

Note this is comparative to Rel Q100E which is only a modest sub. I could not get comparison to any other subs in the C4 price range.

Definately better bass. Where there used to be loud smudges of bass I now hear details - a kick or a roulade of tones or both. Bass sounds separate into different ones. I think the Rel used to resonate and go too loud, lump things together, the harmonics used to mask the higher bands. With the C4 all is much better. There is no boom, no excitement into resonance, no masking of higher bands, the treble is definately forward. The depth extension is good, it improves the depth from just the 50s playing alone. Good improvement in extension, very subtle blend with the speakers. Soft, gentle, articulate. That is what I was looking for.

Good!

The only thing I did not try yet is movies, although I watched the Pavarotti Tribute Concert in Petra in DTS surround. The Sub worked beautifully on orchestral music (Although there are no LFE in this type of material and hardly any surround apart from apllaudes). So, I now need a good movie to test the sub...

the C4 settings that work best for me:

Low pass filter - 70Hz
Contour - Flat, phase +
Level - 2 clicks before max (I think becasue I use RCA output of the DAC to feed the sub, which is lower level than XLR that feeds the speakers, I have to set the sub level quite high to match the speakers level)

 

[AlmaataKZ]

As WHF reported today Humax has issued the firmware fix to enable multichannel sound output, so the freeview hd fox t2 is on order - 120 quid from Amazon.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

the thing arrived yesterday and was up and runnignwithin minutes. Note: HDMI cable is included, although desctription on Amazon does not say so.

Turned out the software was old so had to install the updated one.

My first experience of freeveiw HD and it is positive. Picture much better than SD and the other half agreed immediately. Good.

Multichannlel sound - did not explore fully yet but initially not really much impression.... disbalance between centre/rear/main or jsut particular programs broadcast in stereo? need to observe a bit more.

One compalint so far - sharp clicks from speakers when switching (HD only?) channels.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

What a nice suprise! It turns out my tv box turnes into a recorder in October!

http://whathifi.com/News/Humax-brings-USB-recording-to-HD-FOX-T2-Freeview-HD-box/

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed, very impressive ATC actives ! Great pics too. Interesting area where you live. Like the architecture , can I say nicely European ? Compared to the area where I live - very bland. Enjoy !

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Thanks, canuck2!

 

[Anonymous]

I see you went with ATC 50's. Good choice given your space. Yes there is such a thing as overkill and you can go too far and the 100's are IMHO not the kind of speaker you would want in a living room and dining room combined. They belong in studios or dedicated listening rooms mostly - like the 150's or 300's.

Interesting that the voicing is so close that really it was just a matter of a slight difference in bass (and of course overall SPL) that distinguished the two. Few companies voice speakers as closely as ATC. Most companies try to offer a "range of sound" with each model sounding and looking different in order to meet a variety of listeners preferences. It is odd that a company that makes nearly the same engineered boxy product with only minor design tweaks for over 25 years can still be so successful - in an audio business that is more like fashion clothing with new fall and spring models and a spectrum of colored sound that can suit everyone's taste. (you only need think of the most successful names in teh Audio industry to realize how this is so true).

So how about the C4 - did you decide to keep it? I think it very unfair to compare this sub to a mere modest level REL. You would need to look into some other professional type sub designs to make a fair comparison - such as Genelec or PMC or a high end consumer design like a JL Audio Fathom (which seems to have a big following in the US).

Anyway - great thread and great pics!

I'll only add that if you do decide to keep the sub and to use if for music (and not just HT) then have you considered getting some equipment to measure room modes and then to EQ the sub (notch filter) to ensure you get the flatest in room response?

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Shadorne -

Yes, I have decided to keep the sub and use it for music and movies (but I do not watch movies a lot). I switch it off most of the time when watching TV.

Yes, I was thinknig of looking at room response but did not really research yet what steps would need to be taken and what hardware/software is needed for measurements and for compensation. Can I do measurements with a software on a computer (mac or PC) and an inexpensive microphone? which software? ...

 

[Anonymous]

Yes. A laptop PC, a microphone (nothing fancy ECM 8000 from Behringer will do), a microphone stand, and an EMU 0202 or other equivalent audio interface is all you need (audio interface is to power the mike and handle D to A and A to D). If you use MAC then I'd suggest Fuzzmeasure - it uses sweeps which is the best way to go (you can do sweeps of several seconds and then average many of them to improve signal to noise). If you use PC then try Room Eq Wizard.

With this equipment you can measure both frequency response and the time domain response (waterfall plots) as well as the distortion as a function frequency/SPL level from your overall active amp and speakers. There are some examples on my virtual system page on Audiogon.

There is far too much focus in consumer hifi regarding frequency response. If you delve into professional audio you will realize this is just the first step in achieving good sound. Professionals spend a lot of time designing acoustic environments with the correct balance of reverberation - concert halls and studios spend millions of dollars to achieve that balance. Speakers like ATC are also carefully designed to have a desirable time domain and waterfall response (unlike many home hi-fi speakers). Your room has a lot to do with how your system sounds and an RT60 or a waterfall plot is extremely useful in understanding what acoustic treatments may help. After all - now that you have spent a small fortune on world class gear - the next largest performance improvement could be the room!

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Thanks, Shadorne.

so, how does it work? I get a software and a mic (+ an interface to conncet it). the software generates signals, ouputs them (via which output - digital or anlaog?) to the hifi, the sound gets into the mic, the software then analyses it and plots a graph? which graph(s)?

How do I use the output of the software? do I need the actual correction device at this point and play with its settings until I get 'good' graphs? si the software any use without the correction device?

 

[Anonymous]

My system's pretty close, but a couple of practical differences:

water cooled home made PC with RME AES32 card, running Foobar in ASIO mode, linked to a server in another room with FLAC encoded music library.

chord QBD76 - dual wire AES connection to RME, working as master clock via Chord Prodac BNC

Meridian G02 balanced pre-amp - Chord Indigo XLR cables

ATC SCM50SL AT's

I have tried to avoid pre-amps in the past, but they are really necessary to protect the speakers (even ATC's cam be damaged - or your ears, given the high output voltages of something like a QBD) and of course if you need another input (you should hear the Wii through this system).

Also if you want to watch a movie, cricket or whatever with this, then you can't use the RAM buffer to get over the timing errors, otherwise the video is out of sync with the sound. To get the best sound quality therefore, you need to use the DAC as the master clock (the QBD won't act as the slave) and something like the RME pro-audio soundcard lets you do this, USB doesn't. Finally, if you want the best out of the QBD (I can't speak for the Benchmark) then you want 176 kHz which means dual wire, and if you haven't got the Blu transport, there aren't many other ways of doing it.

I'm just waiting for the iPad to have APTX then the Bluetooth connection will be a neater way to manage the music.

If most of that sounds like gobbledegook, then you must choose whether or not to enter something of an audio twilight zone.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

jevs:
My system's pretty close, but a couple of practical differences:

water cooled home made PC with RME AES32 card, running Foobar in ASIO mode, linked to a server in another room with FLAC encoded music library.

chord QBD76 - dual wire AES connection to RME, working as master clock via Chord Prodac BNC

Meridian G02 balanced pre-amp - Chord Indigo XLR cables

ATC SCM50SL AT's

I have tried to avoid pre-amps in the past, but they are really necessary to protect the speakers (even ATC's cam be damaged - or your ears, given the high output voltages of something like a QBD) and of course if you need another input (you should hear the Wii through this system).

Also if you want to watch a movie, cricket or whatever with this, then you can't use the RAM buffer to get over the timing errors, otherwise the video is out of sync with the sound. To get the best sound quality therefore, you need to use the DAC as the master clock (the QBD won't act as the slave) and something like the RME pro-audio soundcard lets you do this, USB doesn't. Finally, if you want the best out of the QBD (I can't speak for the Benchmark) then you want 176 kHz which means dual wire, and if you haven't got the Blu transport, there aren't many other ways of doing it.

I'm just waiting for the iPad to have APTX then the Bluetooth connection will be a neater way to manage the music.

If most of that sounds like gobbledegook, then you must choose whether or not to enter something of an audio twilight zone.

Hi jevs

You've got some excellent components.

The QBD76 in particular is an superb source component for active SCM50's.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

AlmaataKZ:
Thanks, Shadorne.

so, how does it work? I get a software and a mic (+ an interface to conncet it). the software generates signals, ouputs them (via which output - digital or anlaog?) to the hifi, the sound gets into the mic, the software then analyses it and plots a graph? which graph(s)?

How do I use the output of the software? do I need the actual correction device at this point and play with its settings until I get 'good' graphs? si the software any use without the correction device?

You just hook the audio interface output to your preamp or speakers and then let the software drive the audio interface. At the same time as the interface drives your system it will digitize the input on the microphone. Once you have made measurements then you will see what you room is doing. You may even experiment by moving the speakers around or changing your listening position or simply by moving the sub around. Once you get the best response in the room you can start notch filtering the bass (you'll need a PEQ for this and you need to notch down the humps while ignoring the troughs and concentrating on frequencies of less than 120 HZ). Finally you can experiment with bass traps (corner traps are usually the most effective) and if you have some uneven RT60 times you can try to smooth these out by adding acoustic panels, rugs etc.

An even RT60 response is as important as a flat frequency response. Also excessive RT60 (too much reflections) or too low RT60 (too dead a room) can be a major detriment to sound quality. You'll need to do some reading on RT60 to know what is optimal for your room size and your music tastes. Large rooms can support higher RT60's and classical music tends towards higher RT60. Rock and Pop tends towards lower RT60s as do smaller spaces. A higher RT60 is also acceptable below 100 Hz but will ruin things if you have high RT60 over the midrange. The worst is a very uneven RT60 over the frequency range. Remember 40% to 50% of what you hear is reflected so room RT60 is very nearly as important as your main system.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

jevs:

I'm just waiting for the iPad to have APTX then the Bluetooth connection will be a neater way to manage the music.

native aptx on ipods and ipad woudl be really nice - why apple did not do it now?! I have seen somewhere that the new macmini does have native aptx...

but until then - an aptx dongle seems the only way.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Shadorne:AlmaataKZ:

Thanks, Shadorne.

so, how does it work? I get a software and a mic (+ an interface to conncet it). the software generates signals, ouputs them (via which output - digital or anlaog?) to the hifi, the sound gets into the mic, the software then analyses it and plots a graph? which graph(s)?

How do I use the output of the software? do I need the actual correction device at this point and play with its settings until I get 'good' graphs? si the software any use without the correction device?

You just hook the audio interface output to your preamp or speakers and then let the software drive the audio interface. At the same time as the interface drives your system it will digitize the input on the microphone. Once you have made measurements then you will see what you room is doing. You may even experiment by moving the speakers around or changing your listening position or simply by moving the sub around. Once you get the best response in the room you can start notch filtering the bass (you'll need a PEQ for this and you need to notch down the humps while ignoring the troughs and concentrating on frequencies of less than 120 HZ). Finally you can experiment with bass traps (corner traps are usually the most effective) and if you have some uneven RT60 times you can try to smooth these out by adding acoustic panels, rugs etc.

An even RT60 response is as important as a flat frequency response. Also excessive RT60 (too much reflections) or too low RT60 (too dead a room) can be a major detriment to sound quality. You'll need to do some reading on RT60 to know what is optimal for your room size and your music tastes. Large rooms can support higher RT60's and classical music tends towards higher RT60. Rock and Pop tends towards lower RT60s as do smaller spaces. A higher RT60 is also acceptable below 100 Hz but will ruin things if you have high RT60 over the midrange. The worst is a very uneven RT60 over the frequency range. Remember 40% to 50% of what you hear is reflected so room RT60 is very nearly as important as your main system.

thanks, Shadorne, very useful. I may have a go at this kind of tuning a bit later.

 

[Anonymous]

AlmaataKZ:
thanks, Shadorne, very useful. I may have a go at this kind of tuning a bit later.

The level of gear you now have means that your next big improvement in sound quality will likely be driven by your tuning, placement and room acoustics. This means that that it may be well worth your while investigating some of this - ultimately, selecting your next home may be driven by the room you can find in order to dedicate to music/HT. The room is at least half of the overall equation.

For example, I saw photos of your centre speaker on a TV rack. Firstly, the center was not at the same height as the L and R mains mid range and tweeter. Secondly, the rack will result in quite bad edge diffraction (this may ruin the imaging or collapse sounds to the centre speaker). Thirdly, I am not keen on centre speakers with two midranges (or any speaker with two mids) as this will cause some lobes (comb filtering) in the response. The ideal centre is an identical speaker - if you don't have that then "phantom" centre is, IMHO, the best compromise for most domestic settings. The ideal TV screen is an audio transparent screen with identical L R and C speakers placed behind it. SeymourAV and several other companies make audio transparent screens (down only a 1 db or so in the treble) that roll down. Given that the price of projectors has come down enormously in recent years it may be worth investigating.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Shadorne, all you say is true and thanks for advice again, but things like identical centre speaker, projector, acoustically transparent screen etc. are only in my dreams and not in any short-term plan in reality. My main interest is stereo music, so I do not plan to invest much time or money into multichannel kit. with stereo, the next thing to look at is positioning of sub and maybe room response analysis and tuning. although in rented flat there is only so much oyu can do...

 

[Anonymous]

"Dream system Yes, Oh Maybe one day..."

Of course, my comments were towards your dream - nobody gets there in a month or even a year... for many it may take as much as 25 years to get there - some never get there and end up stuck at an intermediate gear swapping merry-go-round that never ends (collecting gear becomes the hobby rather than great sound). You are well on your way though and my only point was that the room/placement plays such a big role that it will help now to keep these aspects in perspective rather than spinning your tires stuck in the merry-go-round of gear swapping minor tweaks (like so many poor addicted audiophiles tend to do....nirvana always being the next preamp or next DAC or next....and on and on and on)

When Nirvana is the next CD or Blu-Ray or album...not your next piece of hardware.....then you are there.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

very true...

re room correction for bass, what do you think of Antimode 8033. On paper it seems to offer level and phase(? or just take rt into account for additinal level correction?) equalisation and self calibrates... inexpensive, too...

do you have any expereicne of it? it seems to get good reveiws and I ahve seen one or tow positive user reports...

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry no experience with that. Though I see that Kalman Rubinson likes it. As far as I can tell Kal is a straight shooter and one of the few extremely knowledgeable reviewers in the industry. I think you can trust that this is great product for those who do not want to mess with the physics of designing filters and dialing them into a PEQ and spending days running tests to iterate towards a desired response - it seems that this product takes the science, effort and frustration out of the approach that I suggested and gets you most of the way there in one easy step.

Of course, it may not give you as much insight into your room and speaker placement as making your own complex set of measurements will, however, it will smooth your in room sub response in a matter of minutes. If you look my virtual system on Audiogon you'll see that in room raw response for an individual speaker can be interesting, ugly and quite revealing!

 

[AlmaataKZ]

I am checkng with the manufacturer of 8033 - the connection is far from straightforward in my case... it needs an 2 rca to 1 RCA mixer on the input and then two opposite phase RCA into one balanced XLR on teh out...

 

[shooter]

Shadorne: "phantom" centre is, IMHO, the best compromise for most domestic settings.

Excuse my ignorance Shadorne but how do we create a 'phantom' centre in a domestic setting.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

I know of one way - processors/receivers sometimes have a dsp mode where they create the effect of the sound coming from the middle while in fact being reproduced by L and R speakers, callled 'phantom centre' mode.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes as almaataKZ added, I mean "Phantom Centre" mode from a DSP. It simply takes the centre chanel info and adds it to the L&R channel as a mono signal.It works perfectly provided you are sitting perfectly centered. It will actually sound better than a centre speaker that is off axis (different height) from the L & R Mains. Three identical mains speaker L, R and C is optimal but the problem is the TV which is in the way. Hence the use of audio transparent screens being the best approach overall with identical front set of speakers - like they do at the cinema.