Trefor Patten
Well-known member
Great post there from Robbiekins regarding the eternal aim of listening to MUSIC and not the equipment. Now here's my ten penn'orth... ÿI do not know why the last metre of cable can make such a difference, I only know that I can hear the difference it CAN make. I say 'can' because there is plenty of snakeoil out there; plenty of 'if it is a different, unusual colour, and has a fancy plug on the end we can charge more for it' charlatan products for sale.
However, Russ Andrews has sold me some of his cheaper mains cables (Yello) which boosted the ageing Denon one-box system (hardly the highest of fi, I know) into something inherently more musical, not just to my ears but to all my friends ears as well. Including one who owns £4,000 of Cyrus gear who could not believe that a single box of 'Jap rubbish" (his words, not mine) could possibly sound as involving and musical.
The upshot of all this is, for me, if a £30-£100 lead makes the entire collection of my £15k+ worth of CDs all sound more enjoyable, then it is money well spent, whatever physics, cynicism, double-blind testing, etc, etc suggests. ÿI can personally guarantee that a good mains lead, in my case costing less than four good CDs has increased my listening pleasure on all my music ÿfor several years, so much so, that I am on the lookout for an even better lead for my 'proper' Primare system. The only reason I do not have one yet, is that I am in the process of choosing the model which gives the best price/performance ratio.
Having said all that, if you genuinely can't hear a difference, sell the lead, or if, as in the case of several such reputable manufacturers, send the item back for a refund, spend the cash on your favourite tipple and smugly sit back and enjoy your music.
Happy Listeningÿ
ÿ
ÿ
However, Russ Andrews has sold me some of his cheaper mains cables (Yello) which boosted the ageing Denon one-box system (hardly the highest of fi, I know) into something inherently more musical, not just to my ears but to all my friends ears as well. Including one who owns £4,000 of Cyrus gear who could not believe that a single box of 'Jap rubbish" (his words, not mine) could possibly sound as involving and musical.
The upshot of all this is, for me, if a £30-£100 lead makes the entire collection of my £15k+ worth of CDs all sound more enjoyable, then it is money well spent, whatever physics, cynicism, double-blind testing, etc, etc suggests. ÿI can personally guarantee that a good mains lead, in my case costing less than four good CDs has increased my listening pleasure on all my music ÿfor several years, so much so, that I am on the lookout for an even better lead for my 'proper' Primare system. The only reason I do not have one yet, is that I am in the process of choosing the model which gives the best price/performance ratio.
Having said all that, if you genuinely can't hear a difference, sell the lead, or if, as in the case of several such reputable manufacturers, send the item back for a refund, spend the cash on your favourite tipple and smugly sit back and enjoy your music.
Happy Listeningÿ
ÿ
ÿ
robbiekins:
I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue. Rather, my main problem is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music! Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music. However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
These comments not withstanding, I will freely admit to being interested in the differences that can be detected between changed components. Having some vague and exceptionally amateurish experience in recording studios I can definitely vouch for the notion that incremental changes in signal paths can make audible differences.
However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
More or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Or at least, I err on that side of things.
It's nice to read a well thought out point of view, and I do agree with your point of "it's not the sound that interests me so much as music"
I too listen to music, not hi-fi and the more natural the performance the better for me.
On your points about Mains cables I guess it is the view that many people have who haven't tried them, and yes it does seem a awful lot of money for something that you find hard to see how it can work.
However let me say (in my experience) the difference it makes to the clarity, detail of music is not slight, it is very noticeable and enjoyable. In fact with AV amps (where they have 7x outputs) with really big power supplies inside them the noise floor is loud!
The effect this has on music is not pleasant.
With a really clean Mains supply the musical clarity achieved is on par with a amp with a separate PSX unit! To get to this stage however takes a lot more than buying a Mains lead.
If you are happy with your music on your system that's great. But if you ever feel that you want to upgrade things have a listen to a Mains lead on a sale or return basis before going out and buying new equipment, you never know it might make you think twice.
I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue. Rather, my main problem is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music! Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music. However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
These comments not withstanding, I will freely admit to being interested in the differences that can be detected between changed components. Having some vague and exceptionally amateurish experience in recording studios I can definitely vouch for the notion that incremental changes in signal paths can make audible differences.
However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
More or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Or at least, I err on that side of things.
It's nice to read a well thought out point of view, and I do agree with your point of "it's not the sound that interests me so much as music"
I too listen to music, not hi-fi and the more natural the performance the better for me.
On your points about Mains cables I guess it is the view that many people have who haven't tried them, and yes it does seem a awful lot of money for something that you find hard to see how it can work.
However let me say (in my experience) the difference it makes to the clarity, detail of music is not slight, it is very noticeable and enjoyable. In fact with AV amps (where they have 7x outputs) with really big power supplies inside them the noise floor is loud!
The effect this has on music is not pleasant.
With a really clean Mains supply the musical clarity achieved is on par with a amp with a separate PSX unit! To get to this stage however takes a lot more than buying a Mains lead.
If you are happy with your music on your system that's great. But if you ever feel that you want to upgrade things have a listen to a Mains lead on a sale or return basis before going out and buying new equipment, you never know it might make you think twice.
Unfortunately, there is no east way of testing a mains supply to see whether is is clean or not, which means the only choice is to go for those 60 day trial offers, of wich I am profoundy mistrustful. The only reason I have non-standard interconnects is through guilt - the dealer leant me 8 or 10 to try over a couple of weeks, and I felt morally obliged to buy something. I'd also not in passing that many of these sites also offer services such as burning-in and cyrogenically freezing cable. I can find no excuse for these.
Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc, or am I misunderstanding your point? I assume that this isn't the case with stereo gear, or less so anyway?
Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc, or am I misunderstanding your point? I assume that this isn't the case with stereo gear, or less so anyway?
trevor79:robbiekins:
I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue. Rather, my main problem is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music! Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music. However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
These comments not withstanding, I will freely admit to being interested in the differences that can be detected between changed components. Having some vague and exceptionally amateurish experience in recording studios I can definitely vouch for the notion that incremental changes in signal paths can make audible differences.
However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
More or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Or at least, I err on that side of things.
It's nice to read a well thought out point of view, and I do agree with your point of "it's not the sound that interests me so much as music"
I too listen to music, not hi-fi and the more natural the performance the better for me.
On your points about Mains cables I guess it is the view that many people have who haven't tried them, and yes it does seem a awful lot of money for something that you find hard to see how it can work.
However let me say (in my experience) the difference it makes to the clarity, detail of music is not slight, it is very noticeable and enjoyable. In fact with AV amps (where they have 7x outputs) with really big power supplies inside them the noise floor is loud!
The effect this has on music is not pleasant.
With a really clean Mains supply the musical clarity achieved is on par with a amp with a separate PSX unit! To get to this stage however takes a lot more than buying a Mains lead.
If you are happy with your music on your system that's great. But if you ever feel that you want to upgrade things have a listen to a Mains lead on a sale or return basis before going out and buying new equipment, you never know it might make you think twice.
Absolutely, Trevor - but just to clarify, my fear is that I would have no way of knowing whether it was better or not without having two identical systems to do switch tests on. Of course, this I am never going to have. If you or anyone else could assure me that the difference was so noticeable that I could tell simply by plugging and unplugging - e.g. like the difference between vinyl and a cassette reproduction of that source - then I'm afraid I would probably never make the investment. And of course, neither you nor anyone else could ever provide such reassurance because you have no way of knowing how good my ears (or, more accurately, my memory) is. In the absence of this I have to think carefully about where the hard earned and sadly not that plentiful ackers go - and new music is probably always going to win.
I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue. Rather, my main problem is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music! Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music. However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
These comments not withstanding, I will freely admit to being interested in the differences that can be detected between changed components. Having some vague and exceptionally amateurish experience in recording studios I can definitely vouch for the notion that incremental changes in signal paths can make audible differences.
However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
More or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Or at least, I err on that side of things.
It's nice to read a well thought out point of view, and I do agree with your point of "it's not the sound that interests me so much as music"
I too listen to music, not hi-fi and the more natural the performance the better for me.
On your points about Mains cables I guess it is the view that many people have who haven't tried them, and yes it does seem a awful lot of money for something that you find hard to see how it can work.
However let me say (in my experience) the difference it makes to the clarity, detail of music is not slight, it is very noticeable and enjoyable. In fact with AV amps (where they have 7x outputs) with really big power supplies inside them the noise floor is loud!
The effect this has on music is not pleasant.
With a really clean Mains supply the musical clarity achieved is on par with a amp with a separate PSX unit! To get to this stage however takes a lot more than buying a Mains lead.
If you are happy with your music on your system that's great. But if you ever feel that you want to upgrade things have a listen to a Mains lead on a sale or return basis before going out and buying new equipment, you never know it might make you think twice.
Absolutely, Trevor - but just to clarify, my fear is that I would have no way of knowing whether it was better or not without having two identical systems to do switch tests on. Of course, this I am never going to have. If you or anyone else could assure me that the difference was so noticeable that I could tell simply by plugging and unplugging - e.g. like the difference between vinyl and a cassette reproduction of that source - then I'm afraid I would probably never make the investment. And of course, neither you nor anyone else could ever provide such reassurance because you have no way of knowing how good my ears (or, more accurately, my memory) is. In the absence of this I have to think carefully about where the hard earned and sadly not that plentiful ackers go - and new music is probably always going to win.
idc
Well-known member
robbiekins: I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue. Rather, my main problem is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music! Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music. However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
Hi robbiekins. Everyone who participates in this forum is very likely to be a lover of music. One of the differences between cable sceptics and non-sceptics is that the non-sceptics are wanting to get the best quality to their sound and will listen to the sound as well as the music. I personally will and have foregone a few CDs in exchange for better sound. It is also that my experience of the sceptics is that they just don't believe, but very few have tried different cables themselves. Furthermore, my experience of sceptics is that they give the very expensive cables as examples of the apparent madness. But many cables are, as someone has said, the price of a few CDs and many other recommended hifi tweeks are items from Maplins or other non hifi sources such as blue tac! As a cable sceptic do you bother with other sound improvements such as speaker placement, the quality of your kit and the synergy between your kit?
robbiekins: However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
More or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Or at least, I err on that side of things.
With regards to this point, it is easily overcome by having specific tester tracks for auditioning. Joel earlier mentioned listening to Mezzanine and 'Angel' is one of my tester tracks, along with music by Ash, Pink Floyd, Gomez and The Fun Lovin' Criminals. These are tracks I know really well and there are specific parts, bass lines, timing etc that I listen for. I could audition a system or cable upgrade with these tracks easily without worrying about my memory of the music.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
Hi robbiekins. Everyone who participates in this forum is very likely to be a lover of music. One of the differences between cable sceptics and non-sceptics is that the non-sceptics are wanting to get the best quality to their sound and will listen to the sound as well as the music. I personally will and have foregone a few CDs in exchange for better sound. It is also that my experience of the sceptics is that they just don't believe, but very few have tried different cables themselves. Furthermore, my experience of sceptics is that they give the very expensive cables as examples of the apparent madness. But many cables are, as someone has said, the price of a few CDs and many other recommended hifi tweeks are items from Maplins or other non hifi sources such as blue tac! As a cable sceptic do you bother with other sound improvements such as speaker placement, the quality of your kit and the synergy between your kit?
robbiekins: However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
More or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Or at least, I err on that side of things.
With regards to this point, it is easily overcome by having specific tester tracks for auditioning. Joel earlier mentioned listening to Mezzanine and 'Angel' is one of my tester tracks, along with music by Ash, Pink Floyd, Gomez and The Fun Lovin' Criminals. These are tracks I know really well and there are specific parts, bass lines, timing etc that I listen for. I could audition a system or cable upgrade with these tracks easily without worrying about my memory of the music.
chebby
Well-known member
Tarquinh:Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc,
Forgive my lack of knowledge about these matters but isn't a metal
box - surrounding the electronics on all six sides - a 'shield'? (Faraday cage)
Of course if critical components within the same 'box' are not shielded from each other when they should be.... but then a shielded mains lead would make no difference in that situation anyway.
My position on all this is that I bought an IsoTek premium (£58) mains cable for the Solo-Mini when it was new just to remove any doubt. I did not even bother switching them around. The Arcam lead has never been used. If the whole idea is a load of rubbish then it makes no difference, and if there is something in it then why use the Arcam supplied lead?
Life is too short to compare mains leads! If you believe it makes a difference get one that is appropriate in price to your system and be happy and if you don't believe in it then use the standard item and be happy too. The worst case situation is that there will be no difference in sound quality so no-one actually loses. (Unless it IS a load of of rubbish and you have spent a fortune
)
Forgive my lack of knowledge about these matters but isn't a metal
box - surrounding the electronics on all six sides - a 'shield'? (Faraday cage)
Of course if critical components within the same 'box' are not shielded from each other when they should be.... but then a shielded mains lead would make no difference in that situation anyway.
My position on all this is that I bought an IsoTek premium (£58) mains cable for the Solo-Mini when it was new just to remove any doubt. I did not even bother switching them around. The Arcam lead has never been used. If the whole idea is a load of rubbish then it makes no difference, and if there is something in it then why use the Arcam supplied lead?
Life is too short to compare mains leads! If you believe it makes a difference get one that is appropriate in price to your system and be happy and if you don't believe in it then use the standard item and be happy too. The worst case situation is that there will be no difference in sound quality so no-one actually loses. (Unless it IS a load of of rubbish and you have spent a fortune
Chebby, my point exactly.
On your other point, I'm one of the lucky ones, since I don't have to spend a fortune chasing ephemera. And yes, there are far more important things in life. It's the sorcery side of things that angers me. I just took my speaker cables out of the freezer having run 240 volts through them for the last six months, and they sounded exactly as they did before.
Saved £30, though.
On your other point, I'm one of the lucky ones, since I don't have to spend a fortune chasing ephemera. And yes, there are far more important things in life. It's the sorcery side of things that angers me. I just took my speaker cables out of the freezer having run 240 volts through them for the last six months, and they sounded exactly as they did before.
Saved £30, though.
idc:Hi robbiekins. Everyone who participates in this
forum is very likely to be a lover of music. One of the differences
between cable sceptics and non-sceptics is that the non-sceptics are
wanting to get the best quality to their sound and will listen to the
sound as well as the music. I personally will and have foregone a few
CDs in exchange for better sound. It is also that my experience of the
sceptics is that they just don't believe, but very few have tried
different cables themselves. Furthermore, my experience of sceptics is
that they give the very expensive cables as examples of the apparent
madness. But many cables are, as someone has said, the price of a few
CDs and many other recommended hifi tweeks are items from Maplins or
other non hifi sources such as blue tac! As a cable sceptic do you
bother with other sound improvements such as speaker placement, the
quality of your kit and the synergy between your kit?
I am
sadly unable to switch cables on my Rotel as the lead is built-in, so
yes - I am guilty of not trying. However, I have guitar amplifiers that
have ye fabled kettle lead style thingy and over the years I have
amassed a high number of these in varying hues and conditions and see
no good reason why I couldn't at least begin to familiarise my ears
with the differences they create. So that I will readily do once the
opportunity arises.
As for you final question, I have to admit that I do not generally
tweak or tamper - although I wish I was in an environment where I
could. E.g. my speakers are taken off their terrible ikea "tables"
after use and stashed on top of a book case where the kids can no
longer break the driver domes off. This and other context-specific
limitations do place constraints on the number and type of low-cost
upgrades I can undertake.
You also noted this in relation to my testing problem:
idc:With regards to this point, it is easily overcome by
having specific tester tracks for auditioning. Joel earlier mentioned
listening to Mezzanine and 'Angel' is one of my tester tracks, along
with music by Ash, Pink Floyd, Gomez and The Fun Lovin' Criminals.
These are tracks I know really well and there are specific parts, bass
lines, timing etc that I listen for. I could audition a system or cable
upgrade with these tracks easily without worrying about my memory of
the music.
That's a great idea -
however, it is debatable whether I know any one piece of music
sufficiently well. Or even if I would ever want to! I'm a fickle sort,
getting a quick thrill out of songs and moving on before I can get too
familiar and experience the dissipation of whatever magic made them
great on those first few listens. Then again, I do also love to listen
"analytically" and suss out what, precisely, makes them work. However,
this is usually in relation to the music rather than the sound and/or
production. Such as how a bass line plays against a few chords, or the
way in which a vocal melody counterpoints with a piano part, etc. etc.
forum is very likely to be a lover of music. One of the differences
between cable sceptics and non-sceptics is that the non-sceptics are
wanting to get the best quality to their sound and will listen to the
sound as well as the music. I personally will and have foregone a few
CDs in exchange for better sound. It is also that my experience of the
sceptics is that they just don't believe, but very few have tried
different cables themselves. Furthermore, my experience of sceptics is
that they give the very expensive cables as examples of the apparent
madness. But many cables are, as someone has said, the price of a few
CDs and many other recommended hifi tweeks are items from Maplins or
other non hifi sources such as blue tac! As a cable sceptic do you
bother with other sound improvements such as speaker placement, the
quality of your kit and the synergy between your kit?
I am
sadly unable to switch cables on my Rotel as the lead is built-in, so
yes - I am guilty of not trying. However, I have guitar amplifiers that
have ye fabled kettle lead style thingy and over the years I have
amassed a high number of these in varying hues and conditions and see
no good reason why I couldn't at least begin to familiarise my ears
with the differences they create. So that I will readily do once the
opportunity arises.
As for you final question, I have to admit that I do not generally
tweak or tamper - although I wish I was in an environment where I
could. E.g. my speakers are taken off their terrible ikea "tables"
after use and stashed on top of a book case where the kids can no
longer break the driver domes off. This and other context-specific
limitations do place constraints on the number and type of low-cost
upgrades I can undertake.
You also noted this in relation to my testing problem:
idc:With regards to this point, it is easily overcome by
having specific tester tracks for auditioning. Joel earlier mentioned
listening to Mezzanine and 'Angel' is one of my tester tracks, along
with music by Ash, Pink Floyd, Gomez and The Fun Lovin' Criminals.
These are tracks I know really well and there are specific parts, bass
lines, timing etc that I listen for. I could audition a system or cable
upgrade with these tracks easily without worrying about my memory of
the music.
That's a great idea -
however, it is debatable whether I know any one piece of music
sufficiently well. Or even if I would ever want to! I'm a fickle sort,
getting a quick thrill out of songs and moving on before I can get too
familiar and experience the dissipation of whatever magic made them
great on those first few listens. Then again, I do also love to listen
"analytically" and suss out what, precisely, makes them work. However,
this is usually in relation to the music rather than the sound and/or
production. Such as how a bass line plays against a few chords, or the
way in which a vocal melody counterpoints with a piano part, etc. etc.
Tarquinh:
Unfortunately, there is no east way of testing a mains supply to see whether is is clean or not, which means the only choice is to go for those 60 day trial offers, of wich I am profoundy mistrustful. The only reason I have non-standard interconnects is through guilt - the dealer leant me 8 or 10 to try over a couple of weeks, and I felt morally obliged to buy something. I'd also not in passing that many of these sites also offer services such as burning-in and cyrogenically freezing cable. I can find no excuse for these.
Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc, or am I misunderstanding your point? I assume that this isn't the case with stereo gear, or less so anyway?
Any equipment that has a transformer inside it benefits, and the bigger the power supply the greater potential for a high noise floor feeding into the Pre-amp sections. That's why several manufacturers house the power supplies in separate units on there better equipment.
It is not a question of 'adequate shielding' the subject is far more complexed than that.
AV amps are not as musical as stereo amps as they have much more work to do inside the box.
In my Onkyo 875 that's 7x200wpc = 1400w in total! Being a class A design it weighs 56lbs, most of which is in the alloy heat sinks and iron transformer.
However fed with a pure and stable supply the noise floor disappears along with the previous corruption on the signal path transforming everything that is processed by it.
The bigger the problem the bigger the improvement when you get rid of it, but also the more revealing the system is the more unforgiving it is to bad sources and recordings. So worthwhile improvements can be had across a wide range of stuff from 'High End' down to cheap and cheerfull.
What is your system by the way? It is not shown in your details.
Unfortunately, there is no east way of testing a mains supply to see whether is is clean or not, which means the only choice is to go for those 60 day trial offers, of wich I am profoundy mistrustful. The only reason I have non-standard interconnects is through guilt - the dealer leant me 8 or 10 to try over a couple of weeks, and I felt morally obliged to buy something. I'd also not in passing that many of these sites also offer services such as burning-in and cyrogenically freezing cable. I can find no excuse for these.
Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc, or am I misunderstanding your point? I assume that this isn't the case with stereo gear, or less so anyway?
Any equipment that has a transformer inside it benefits, and the bigger the power supply the greater potential for a high noise floor feeding into the Pre-amp sections. That's why several manufacturers house the power supplies in separate units on there better equipment.
It is not a question of 'adequate shielding' the subject is far more complexed than that.
AV amps are not as musical as stereo amps as they have much more work to do inside the box.
In my Onkyo 875 that's 7x200wpc = 1400w in total! Being a class A design it weighs 56lbs, most of which is in the alloy heat sinks and iron transformer.
However fed with a pure and stable supply the noise floor disappears along with the previous corruption on the signal path transforming everything that is processed by it.
The bigger the problem the bigger the improvement when you get rid of it, but also the more revealing the system is the more unforgiving it is to bad sources and recordings. So worthwhile improvements can be had across a wide range of stuff from 'High End' down to cheap and cheerfull.
What is your system by the way? It is not shown in your details.
chebby
Well-known member
Tarquinh:I just took my speaker cables out of the freezer having run 240 volts through them for the last six months, and they sounded exactly as they did before.Saved £30, though.
You should have used liquid nitrogen not the freezer.
Of course if you can contrive to have them jacketed in a flow of liquid nitrogen whilst in normal use (that may take a fair bit of expenditure) then they will superconduct. Worth trying out for a laugh. If nothing else you can show off to friends by levitating magnets over your mains lead.
You should have used liquid nitrogen not the freezer.
Of course if you can contrive to have them jacketed in a flow of liquid nitrogen whilst in normal use (that may take a fair bit of expenditure) then they will superconduct. Worth trying out for a laugh. If nothing else you can show off to friends by levitating magnets over your mains lead.
idc
Well-known member
Tarquinh: .................. I'm one of the lucky ones, since I don't have to spend a fortune chasing ephemera. And yes, there are far more important things in life. It's the sorcery side of things that angers me. I just took my speaker cables out of the freezer having run 240 volts through them for the last six months, and they sounded exactly as they did before...........
I'm one of the lucky ones as well, just like Joel I get a thrill from getting a new cable and listening to the changes it makes (can't wait for my new PSU from Russ Andrews to arrive!). There are more important things in life. The sorcery side is sales talk and there are companies who have got into trouble with unproven claims and going OTT. I didn't feel the need to freeze my cables, though I may try in the furture, but I have found that over time sound continues to improve, sometimes, not always.
Maybe you have clean mains, a set up with a synergy that changing cables does not make a difference or, as I find my wife notices changes even more than I do, plain old different ears!
I'm one of the lucky ones as well, just like Joel I get a thrill from getting a new cable and listening to the changes it makes (can't wait for my new PSU from Russ Andrews to arrive!). There are more important things in life. The sorcery side is sales talk and there are companies who have got into trouble with unproven claims and going OTT. I didn't feel the need to freeze my cables, though I may try in the furture, but I have found that over time sound continues to improve, sometimes, not always.
Maybe you have clean mains, a set up with a synergy that changing cables does not make a difference or, as I find my wife notices changes even more than I do, plain old different ears!
i am not too interested in the why cables work really only that as i like to upgrade and squeeze more from my system i am open to trying things
now when i added a tacima conditioner there was a definate improvement in clarity, also when i changed speaker cable sideways in value (QED SA XT to Chord Silverscreen) and then upgrade to Chord EPIC there were noticeable changes
however i have tried loads of interconnects from chord chameleon to VDH First and a £200 Piccolo and got no noticeable benefit from any against the VDH Name - why others get a huge benefit i cannot explain but it wasnt worth me spending here
i think often this can be down the the system you have - some things work better than others - i am going to get a clearer audio copperline power cable and try it because i genuinely want to see if i can get something from it
now when i added a tacima conditioner there was a definate improvement in clarity, also when i changed speaker cable sideways in value (QED SA XT to Chord Silverscreen) and then upgrade to Chord EPIC there were noticeable changes
however i have tried loads of interconnects from chord chameleon to VDH First and a £200 Piccolo and got no noticeable benefit from any against the VDH Name - why others get a huge benefit i cannot explain but it wasnt worth me spending here
i think often this can be down the the system you have - some things work better than others - i am going to get a clearer audio copperline power cable and try it because i genuinely want to see if i can get something from it
eternaloptimist:
Hi JoelSim,
Can I be facetious.... and suggest a good sturdy kettle lead?
I cannot believe that the laws of physics can be defied and any difference be heard when only the last 1 m of mains supply is shielded / coated in diamonds etc. compared to the rest of the lines all the way back to the power station... You should hear my electrical engineer (and audiophile) father on the subject... Snake oil exists in the 21st century and it has a name: "audiophile" mains cables.
I would be very open to any blinded testing study that shows any audible difference above chance between a good sturdy kettle lead and any of the above "audiophile" leads. This stuff gives genuine audiophile developments a bad name.
Not so optimistic tonight.
D
There has been such a test, a rather good one, where some leads were disguised and posted around various people to test in their own systems in their own time. Naturally the result was a triumph for those laws of physics. [edited by mods - yes, you can add links, but keep them according to house rules] you'll have to google it.
Hi JoelSim,
Can I be facetious.... and suggest a good sturdy kettle lead?
I cannot believe that the laws of physics can be defied and any difference be heard when only the last 1 m of mains supply is shielded / coated in diamonds etc. compared to the rest of the lines all the way back to the power station... You should hear my electrical engineer (and audiophile) father on the subject... Snake oil exists in the 21st century and it has a name: "audiophile" mains cables.
I would be very open to any blinded testing study that shows any audible difference above chance between a good sturdy kettle lead and any of the above "audiophile" leads. This stuff gives genuine audiophile developments a bad name.
Not so optimistic tonight.
D
There has been such a test, a rather good one, where some leads were disguised and posted around various people to test in their own systems in their own time. Naturally the result was a triumph for those laws of physics. [edited by mods - yes, you can add links, but keep them according to house rules] you'll have to google it.
idc
Well-known member
chebby: Of course if you can contrive to have them jacketed in a flow of liquid nitrogen whilst in normal use (that may take a fair bit of expenditure) then they will superconduct. Worth trying out for a laugh. If nothing else you can show off to friends by levitating magnets over your mains lead.
I want one of those cables now, levitating magnets, wow! I am not ashamed to admit I like the idea alone of owning such a thing, whether it works or not!
I want one of those cables now, levitating magnets, wow! I am not ashamed to admit I like the idea alone of owning such a thing, whether it works or not!
idc
Well-known member
Cyril Mason:There has been such a test, a rather good one, where some leads were disguised and posted around various people to test in their own systems in their own time. Naturally the result was a triumph for those laws of physics. Posting links isn't allowed on here for some bizarre reason (paranoia?) so you'll have to google it.
Post the link Cyril, so long as it does not end up linking to offensive stuff or nudie pictures I am sure that you will be OK!
Post the link Cyril, so long as it does not end up linking to offensive stuff or nudie pictures I am sure that you will be OK!
trevor79:Tarquinh:
Unfortunately, there is no east way of testing a mains supply to see whether is is clean or not, which means the only choice is to go for those 60 day trial offers, of wich I am profoundy mistrustful. The only reason I have non-standard interconnects is through guilt - the dealer leant me 8 or 10 to try over a couple of weeks, and I felt morally obliged to buy something. I'd also not in passing that many of these sites also offer services such as burning-in and cyrogenically freezing cable. I can find no excuse for these.
Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc, or am I misunderstanding your point? I assume that this isn't the case with stereo gear, or less so anyway?
Any equipment that has a transformer inside it benefits, and the bigger the power supply the greater potential for a high noise floor feeding into the Pre-amp sections. That's why several manufacturers house the power supplies in separate units on there better equipment.
It is not a question of 'adequate shielding' the subject is far more complexed than that.
AV amps are not as musical as stereo amps as they have much more work to do inside the box.
In my Onkyo 875 that's 7x200wpc = 1400w in total! Being a class A design it weighs 56lbs, most of which is in the alloy heat sinks and iron transformer.
However fed with a pure and stable supply the noise floor disappears along with the previous corruption on the signal path transforming everything that is processed by it.
The bigger the problem the bigger the improvement when you get rid of it, but also the more revealing the system is the more unforgiving it is to bad sources and recordings. So worthwhile improvements can be had across a wide range of stuff from 'High End' down to cheap and cheerfull.
What is your system by the way? It is not shown in your details.
Trevor, wrote you a long and exquisitely detailed reply which proved brilliantly why I was right and you were wrong, from which you are fortunately spared since, for the nth time this morning, clicking the post button put my browser into an infinite loop!
My system consists of a NAD C320BEE, Sonus Faber Minimas and an MF v-dac.
Unfortunately, there is no east way of testing a mains supply to see whether is is clean or not, which means the only choice is to go for those 60 day trial offers, of wich I am profoundy mistrustful. The only reason I have non-standard interconnects is through guilt - the dealer leant me 8 or 10 to try over a couple of weeks, and I felt morally obliged to buy something. I'd also not in passing that many of these sites also offer services such as burning-in and cyrogenically freezing cable. I can find no excuse for these.
Trevor, do I infer from what you're saying it's the AV amps which will benefit most, because apparently they're so complex that manufacturers don't put the money into adequate shielding etc, or am I misunderstanding your point? I assume that this isn't the case with stereo gear, or less so anyway?
Any equipment that has a transformer inside it benefits, and the bigger the power supply the greater potential for a high noise floor feeding into the Pre-amp sections. That's why several manufacturers house the power supplies in separate units on there better equipment.
It is not a question of 'adequate shielding' the subject is far more complexed than that.
AV amps are not as musical as stereo amps as they have much more work to do inside the box.
In my Onkyo 875 that's 7x200wpc = 1400w in total! Being a class A design it weighs 56lbs, most of which is in the alloy heat sinks and iron transformer.
However fed with a pure and stable supply the noise floor disappears along with the previous corruption on the signal path transforming everything that is processed by it.
The bigger the problem the bigger the improvement when you get rid of it, but also the more revealing the system is the more unforgiving it is to bad sources and recordings. So worthwhile improvements can be had across a wide range of stuff from 'High End' down to cheap and cheerfull.
What is your system by the way? It is not shown in your details.
Trevor, wrote you a long and exquisitely detailed reply which proved brilliantly why I was right and you were wrong, from which you are fortunately spared since, for the nth time this morning, clicking the post button put my browser into an infinite loop!
My system consists of a NAD C320BEE, Sonus Faber Minimas and an MF v-dac.
professorhat
Well-known member
Tarquinh:Unfortunately, there is no east way of testing a mains supply to see whether is is clean or not, which means the only choice is to go for those 60 day trial offers, of wich I am profoundy mistrustful.
No need to be mistrustful of the Clearer Audio trial, I got their Silver-line cable for my Onkyo 905 amp and, although I think it did improve the sound, it certainly wasn't worth the 200 odd notes it set me back. Sent it back and got a full refund, including the postage. I'm now a happy owner of the Copper-line Alpha which is much more in line with the system I have - clearly the Silver-line is designed for higher end systems than mine.
In fact, the evidence of the improvement is clearly laid out in this very forum whereby I noted I preferred the Stereo mode for music listening on this amp before the mains lead upgrade from the free one. However, some months later, after swapping the cable, I inadvertantly changed the mode to Pure and found this is a distinct improvement over the Stereo mode. Someone then pointed out (I think it was Trevor79) that the mains upgrade was more than likely the reason for this change.
No need to be mistrustful of the Clearer Audio trial, I got their Silver-line cable for my Onkyo 905 amp and, although I think it did improve the sound, it certainly wasn't worth the 200 odd notes it set me back. Sent it back and got a full refund, including the postage. I'm now a happy owner of the Copper-line Alpha which is much more in line with the system I have - clearly the Silver-line is designed for higher end systems than mine.
In fact, the evidence of the improvement is clearly laid out in this very forum whereby I noted I preferred the Stereo mode for music listening on this amp before the mains lead upgrade from the free one. However, some months later, after swapping the cable, I inadvertantly changed the mode to Pure and found this is a distinct improvement over the Stereo mode. Someone then pointed out (I think it was Trevor79) that the mains upgrade was more than likely the reason for this change.
idc
Well-known member
Tarquinh:My system consists of a NAD C320BEE, Sonus Faber Minimas and an MF v-dac.
What are your thoughts on the MF v dac as it is favourite at the moment as my my next purchase to link PC to amp.
What are your thoughts on the MF v dac as it is favourite at the moment as my my next purchase to link PC to amp.
I find on my own 875 that there is now no noise floor in any of the various settings. The musicality and detail of music is the same on the Direct, Pure, Stereo, and PL2 modes.
In the main I have a preference for the PL2 as the sound stage is more open on this setting through all 5 speakers. No difference at all between Direct and Pure modes now. The Burr Brown DAC's are on top of the job processing a pure signal.
I also spent over many months fine tuning on the equaliser settings to achieve the balance of weight and tone, particularly with the integration of the MA RSW12 to handle more of the bass rather than the RS8's/875, which leaves the Amp able to use its greater reserves on transient responses in the music.
There has been quite a bit of bedding in as my upgrades have been done over a period of time, not all at once, the adjustability available on AV Amps is so extensive you can get things perfect for the room and your tastes.
In the main I have a preference for the PL2 as the sound stage is more open on this setting through all 5 speakers. No difference at all between Direct and Pure modes now. The Burr Brown DAC's are on top of the job processing a pure signal.
I also spent over many months fine tuning on the equaliser settings to achieve the balance of weight and tone, particularly with the integration of the MA RSW12 to handle more of the bass rather than the RS8's/875, which leaves the Amp able to use its greater reserves on transient responses in the music.
There has been quite a bit of bedding in as my upgrades have been done over a period of time, not all at once, the adjustability available on AV Amps is so extensive you can get things perfect for the room and your tastes.
robbiekins:
I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue.ÿ Rather, my mainÿ problemÿ is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music!ÿ Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music.ÿ However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
These comments not withstanding, I will freely admit to being interested in the differences that can be detected between changed components. Having some vague and exceptionally amateurish experience in recording studios I can definitely vouch for the notion that incremental changes in signal paths can make audible differences.
However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
ÿMore or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Orÿ at least, I err on that side of things.
ÿ
ÿ
ÿ
An A/B test is easy if you are very familiar with particular music. As soon as you put it on you can tell if it sounds better, or not.
ÿ
I've been thinking about this - because the cost of these leads does seem ridiculous - or, at least, the very existence of a market for them strikes me as somewhat preposterous. I personally would never spend on them - but not simply because I am skeptical of the net benefits to sound that such an investment would accrue.ÿ Rather, my mainÿ problemÿ is that I can always find something better to buy. Such as - new music!ÿ Or if not "new" precisely, then different and new-to-me music.ÿ However I will admit to having an insatiable appetite for music and although I do love to revisit stuff I've owned for years my preference is for discovering music I haven't heard before.
In light of this I regard myself as first and foremost a lover of music rather than sound. And for this reason I will always find it very difficult to suppress a sneer at those who would invest so much in so little. Especially when there's music to be buying.
These comments not withstanding, I will freely admit to being interested in the differences that can be detected between changed components. Having some vague and exceptionally amateurish experience in recording studios I can definitely vouch for the notion that incremental changes in signal paths can make audible differences.
However - and this is an important point for me - in the absence of a clear means of comparative A/B listening I can say with confidence that I would be unable to detect the difference that a power lead would make in a signal chain. A before-and-after kind of test would prove useless to me as I'm simply unable to recall (even after several seconds) the exact nature of a given sound. What I need is an A/B test that switches between sources simultaneously, as it were. Such a test is - at least in the domestic setting - most easy to do when comparing speakers. It being possible to wire up to sets and switch between them on some amps.
ÿMore or less every other test involves unplugging, futzing with and generally faffing around - by which time my memory has failed to retain those microscopic nuances that differentiate two signal paths / sources etc. Consequently I'm often a little skeptical of those who claim to be able to "remember" such differences. But then, and as I said, it's not "sound" that interests me so much as music. I listen to my records - not the stuff that's playing them. Orÿ at least, I err on that side of things.
ÿ
ÿ
ÿ
An A/B test is easy if you are very familiar with particular music. As soon as you put it on you can tell if it sounds better, or not.
ÿ
Perhaps so. However, and as I said, I don't think I could ever be sufficiently familiar with a piece of music to discern whether it was better or worse as a consequence of a slightly better power lead. Indeed, I'm not sure I would *want* that level of familiarity - it would seem to require such repeated and close listening that I for one would be heartily sick of it before I ever got there.
To repeat, I'm able to discern quite small differences in switched tests but not in what I call faff tests.
To repeat, I'm able to discern quite small differences in switched tests but not in what I call faff tests.
idc:
Tarquinh:My system consists of a NAD C320BEE, Sonus Faber Minimas and an MF v-dac.
What are your thoughts on the MF v dac as it is favourite at the moment as my my next purchase to link PC to amp.
In my system, and with the music I play which tends towards the classical/jazz/thirties/souk and Nirvana, it's excellent. Voicing, dynamics, soundstage are all top notch. The but that I've read is that it misses out on slam and isn't as forward as its rivals, which suits me fine.
Tarquinh:My system consists of a NAD C320BEE, Sonus Faber Minimas and an MF v-dac.
What are your thoughts on the MF v dac as it is favourite at the moment as my my next purchase to link PC to amp.
In my system, and with the music I play which tends towards the classical/jazz/thirties/souk and Nirvana, it's excellent. Voicing, dynamics, soundstage are all top notch. The but that I've read is that it misses out on slam and isn't as forward as its rivals, which suits me fine.
I would go for mains regenerating before the power cords, I have just installed a mains regenerator from a Japanese brand CSE, the effect was quite remarkable, more so than any power cord, my system plays extremely loudly and it stays very composed, it sounds vivid and has a bass kick that is simply superb.
With the power cords, the plugs I find are just as important as the cable, something like Oyaide are good, sometimes these changes don't bowl you over straight away, but the higher the resolution of a system the more effect they have or should I say you may notice, sometimes people set their expectation too high due to flowery language used in advertising and reviews and expect too much, power cords are expensive, that's why I always think you should DIY them and terminate them in the best plugs you can. i.e Oyaide.
With the power cords, the plugs I find are just as important as the cable, something like Oyaide are good, sometimes these changes don't bowl you over straight away, but the higher the resolution of a system the more effect they have or should I say you may notice, sometimes people set their expectation too high due to flowery language used in advertising and reviews and expect too much, power cords are expensive, that's why I always think you should DIY them and terminate them in the best plugs you can. i.e Oyaide.
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