mains cables

[Thaiman]

I don't think he has any hidden agenda here as nothing there to be gain at all. In other forums they are hundread or thoundsand people that think the way he is. Agree with him or not you can't deny his knowledge (if you really read what he saying in technical term and try to understand) lots of thing does make sense.

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="richardjlarby"]Have they put 'Rising Damp' back on BBC2?[/quote]

Yes, it's on just after Love Thy Neighbour and just before Mind Your Language

 

[Anonymous]

it's not his point that annoys others, it's the way he makes it.

Is there not a large section of this thread missing from last night? It was rather funny...

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="aarw"]

it's not his point that annoys others, it's the way he makes it.

Is there not a large section of this thread missing from last night? It was rather funny...
[/quote]
I think one of the mod delete the whole thread this morning, no complaint from me as now we know 99.9% of this forum members think cables is for real.

 

[Anonymous]

It's not the point if someone has an agenda or not,it's telling people what they should believe, and that the people,generally scientists, like to look down on people and tell them they are wrong,be it cables,or religion.All it is,is simply another opinion,they don't have all the answers just like religions don't have the answers,just like audiophiles don't.

In many cases we have to guess,because we don't know,science changes all the time,we are constantly learning new things,but we have to respect someones findings,hearings,and beliefs,to tell someone they are illusional,deluded,because it doesn't fit in with their personal belief system,is really arrogance of the highest order.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="silly"]It's not the point if someone has an agenda or not,it's telling people what they should believe, and that the people,generally scientists, like to look down on people and tell them they are wrong,be it cables,or religion.All it is,is simply another opinion,they don't have all the answers just like religions don't have the answers,just like audiophiles don't.

In many cases we have to guess,because we don't know,science changes all the time,we are constantly learning new things,but we have to respect someones findings,hearings,and beliefs,to tell someone they are illusional,deluded,because it doesn't fit in with their personal belief system,is really arrogance of the highest order.[/quote]
hmm... quite

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="oldphrt"]
Primary school teacher

[/quote]
And right when you least expect it, the reason for the ego becomes as clear as crystal.
Ever heard the expression 'those who can, do. Those who can't.....
Even if you're not the teacher, I guess talking to everyone like they're five year olds has rubbed off on you.

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="oldphrt"]

[quote user="silly"]Drum rollll.this months award for the biggest ego goes to oldphrt,I,m right and everyone else wrong, Prize?A free set of interconnects of your choice.[/quote]

..takes bow... I thank you Could I have Nordost ones please?

[/quote]

Don't get a Nordost oldphrt! they lift up trebles and roll off the bass!! have you try Chords company mega silver ones.... he he he
Well you did try mate, I am sure we had a cables debate before elsewhere and I thought then that your knowledge in this field is very good...a lot better than me. well at least you got an award for trying.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="oldphrt"]
[quote user="Damien Buckley"][quote user="oldphrt"]

Primary school teacher

[/quote]

Ever heard the expression 'those who can, do. Those who can't.....

[/quote]

Those who can't understand electronics buy rip off cables.

[/quote]
tug, tug, is that a chain I hear rattling, lol.

 

[Anonymous]

DON'T TOUCH THE CHAIN ANYONE!!!

oh - I think I just did.

Sorry.

 

[Anonymous]

Surely, all the spikes in the mains are filtered out before they get to the amp therefore having no effect what so ever on the audio output.

I wish now that I had started a business selling souped up mains cables!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="oldphrt"]
[quote user="Damien Buckley"]tug, tug, is that a chain I hear rattling, lol.[/quote]

It's more likely to be your ears deceiving you yet again.
[/quote]
chuckle, chuckle, you need some new material

 

[Anonymous]

Firstly - I've never tried mains cables other than standard ones, and neither have I listened to any mains conditioners.

But, I shall bless you with my thoughts anyway. I don't see how a mains cable can be any better or worse, so long as it's rating sufficiently for the equipment (and fuse!).

I can't see how shielding would make a significant help, because I would have thought most mains noise would be in the form of conducted EMI rather than radiated EMI.

Maybe not - in which case it might well help.

But then again, it's probably more significant how well the equipment performs with regards to EMC, as well as noise coming up the mains cable.

Mains filtering might well help though. I think Anton(some numbers) suggested using a variac to supply mains - being a large inductor it would filter out some hf interferance.

That might work.

But again, it depends how well the equipments PSU can reject noise.

Just my thoughts, to keep the ball rolling, like!

Cheers

Bloney

 

[hifikrazy]

[quote user="oldphrt"]
Precisely. Any perceived audble difference is an illusion based on the placebo effect. Placebos in hi-fi tend to be very expensive to buy.

[/quote]

God, this guy is getting stale.

 

[Gwyndy]

Breaking the habit of a lifetime here, I'm actually going to bother replying to a mains cable thread.
I'm no technical electrical expert, therefore I can't say why more expensive mains cables work or don't.
As far as I'm concerned they do, I have blind tested my system with mains cables (Supra and Merlin) and mains filtering equipment (Isotek and Isol-8) and in my system at least they did make a noticible difference, not only to myself, but also to my wife and the friend that changed cables for me so that I didn't know whether anything had been changed. The only thing I can suggest is; if someone wants to test them in a dealers, see if you can take a friend along to swop the cables without telling you which you are listening to. However, oldphrt is entirely entitled to his opinion and I'm not going to tell him he's wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure if this has been commented on before (couldn't be bothered to read through several pages of yes it does no it doesn't) I don't know if a good quality mains cable would or wouldn't make a difference, there are arguments as to why they would or wouldn't either way.

Has anyone ever tried a UPS (uninterruptible power supply) an online UPS (don't bother with a really cheap one, the output is designed for PC's only) gives COMPLETE isolation from the mains and a pure sinewave output (the power is converted from AC to DC and back again), also you can sit and listen/watch your favourite track/movie in the middle of a power cut.

I have one on my set up and if nothing else it means my system is isolted from any mains blips or spikes and I can carry on watching a film in the middle of a black out.

Could this be worth a test?

Let me know what you think.

http://www.aeceuro.co.uk/t3_series.asp

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="oldphrt"] So far nobody has tried to explain in technical terms how they could possibly make a difference. I've had plenty of abuse and insults though. Very telling. [/quote]

I've speculated on the effect of EMI and the ability of a PSU to reject it a few times, Oldphrt. Not saying it makes a difference or not - I don't know and not tried - but this is one area where a shielded/filtered cable might concievably make a difference.

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Guinness750"](couldn't be bothered to read through several pages of yes it does no it doesn't) [/quote]
I wish I did the same as you! 3 threads going live about main cables in the same forum!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="oldphrt"][quote user="bloney"]I've speculated on the effect of EMI and the ability of a PSU to reject it a few times, Oldphrt. Not saying it makes a difference or not - I don't know and not tried - but this is one area where a shielded/filtered cable might concievably make a difference. [/quote] Aye, so you did. What type of EMI do you mean? Coming from where and from what? How would it get into the electronics of an amp via the mains without being totally obliterated by all the previously mentioned capacitors, the mains transformer and those big electrolytics?[/quote]

Well conducted EMI down the mains as well radiated EMI picked up on the cable (and through the vents in the casework, but thats another kettle..!)... Erm, coming fom other electronic and electrical equipment, of course! The laptop I'm using now will probably be particularly badf in therms of emc. As I said a power supply won't 'totally obliterate' all the noise and rubbish, it only has finite capabilities. To be EMC compliant with regards to susceptability it only has to not fail too disasterously - it doesn't have to be utterly immune to it or have it's performance completely unaffected by it.

I'm not saying EMI WILL be a problem - it might well be small enough to not be a problem - I don't know - it's just a thought. But I do know it won't be completely obliterated though.

 

[Anonymous]

A ferrite ring is a bit of a sticky plater cure for emc - it'll only help a handful of dB, while a properly designed filter will offer an order of magnitude more protection. From memory figures like <10dB compared to 90+dB. So there is something to be said for properly designed filtered. But as you say - they might be already designed in. But as others have suggested they might not be on budget kit.

Or, as you say - it might not be a problem at all!

Yeah - I can't see the justification for the silly money cables. I saw one for over three grand on the web the other week!!! Funny that some things are amazingly cheap - I had a look inside a floppy disk drive once - the engineering is amazing and you can buy one for a tenner or so. And cheap cars, dunno how it's done when all the markups are taken into account. But some things - like esoteric audio stuff - is ridiculouslky prices - I guess mass production has a lot to do with it. Then there's the thing about a bottle of wine not selling at £2 but will sell loads at £20.

 

[Anonymous]

Having done extensive research into mains noise with a storage scope and analyser you would not believe the noise that is carried on the sine wave of the mains voltage. The top and bottom edges or the 50Hz sine are jagged with spikes over 600V (in the ms region). These spikes for example saturate the transformer in your equipment, this saturation stops the transformer working. All these pulses of on-off-on-off are of course put straight onto the secondary and straight into the delicate electronics effecting there performance.
I have tested mains spikes by placing a Gas surge arrestor across Live and Neutral after an RCD, these work by if the voltage raises above the value of the arrester the plasma gas inside conducts and creates a short from L-N squashing the spike.This of course trips the RCD. Fitting a 300V arrester gave some very worrying results, it constantly fired all day with lunch time being the worst 12pm to 1pm it fired 48 times. So thats 48 times the mains spiked over 300V, this is not very healthy for your equipment. A 600V arrester was tried the following day and it fired 7 times. These are very big short duration spikes. I then made my own passive filters using capacitors and transient diodes, this pulled the spikes down to below the 300V threshold on most cases and only fired the 300V gas arrester 3 times all day.
This may sound a bit techy to most people but I thought I would share my findings so people know what dirty mains we really have
Fitting filters removes a large chunk of the noise off the mains and squashes spikes down to a more acceptable level.
Hi quality mains leads are usually low impeadance low loss copper/silver. The better ones are the Kimber cables that have a RF rejecting weave.
Filters fitted into equipment (even expensive items) is quite poor, mainly because the components needed to do a proper job are fairly large and of course cost.

Brent

 

[Anonymous]

No it does not!!!!! I'm an audio engineer and can quite catagorically say it does not. A vdr and an inductor does not constitute proper mains filtering. Infact inline inductors used by lots of manufacturers adds impeadence to the mains which reduces the dynamic effect of the music,also the vdrs they fit do wear out overtime and therefore no longer work.
Yes well designed equipment has better voltage rails inside compared to cheaper equipment but these circuits are still bombarded by the same noisy mains coming in.

Brent

 

[Anonymous]

I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick here. All these spikes etc are milli seconds in duration and therefore very very quick. If they were huge like lightening strikes then yes most things would blow. With regard to the milli second spikes items such as light bulbs can absorb this type of spike. With regards to noise on the mains items such as motors light bulbs are not affected. Motors etc do however put spikes back down the line.
Transformers in cd players amps etc absorb these spikes but it creates a saturation effect where the transformer shuts of momentarily causing a pulsed secondary output. The noise on the sinewave of mains is transfered through to the secondaryand psu.
A dimmer is a variable resistor and small surges on overvoltage do not effect these, lots and lots of spikes do however shorten the life of a bulb. If you run just about any light bulb at 90% it will last approx 100% longer.
Noise on mains effects things where conversion is required, digital electronics is very delicate. Look at a good pc power supply or a server psu. It is full of mains spike protection so that these spikes do not interupt the cpu etc.
Remember we are talking about the effect noise and spikes have on audio
Brent

 

[Anonymous]

Don't bother! This old chap is continually asking for objective evidence and measurements and proof. The fact that you've actually tried to give him some is highly unlikely to actually have any influence whatsoever on his opinion.

Mind, it has to be said, I still reckon (without listening evidence I hasten to add) that a simple piece of wire, no matter what it's made of, even miraculem or unobtainium or whatever, isn't going to affect the sound UNLESS there are also some intentional filtering properties in there. If for no reason beyond the "thought experiment" of moving the system a socket closer to the distribution board instead since 100m of copper plus 1m of pure silver is still a poorer conductor that 95m of copper.

Are you say that the weave of the cable can produce such filtering results (and I don't mean shielding or noise rejection as per a twisted pair)?

A cable or main-block that actively filters the mains to remove spikes and noise does seem plausible to me, certainly given your results.

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="Sid Rumpo"]
If the mains was as bad as you say it is none of us would be able to use light dimmers and all the cheap stuff would be crackling and popping continuously or blowing up. It's hyperbole.

[/quote]

Why on earth do you bother coming back repeatedly?