Mains Cable confusion?

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Anonymous

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Hi Monstrous - I am working on an answer to your question - however I have
kids and a lot on at the moment- I want to write with some clarity as the
earthing/ground, screen and drain thing is easy to get right - and it's also
easy to over look a ground loop as well - and it does make a difference.

What I will say to people who doubt the sensitivity of the ear to anything
above 20Khz and the importance of maintaining the integrity of the timing of
the audio within microseconds (millionths) is that there is a part of the brain
called the medial olivary nucleus - it's a nucleus that has a mess of nerves
with nodes at very small offset differences on them. It is understood that this
measures very precise time difference between the arrival of sound between the
left and right ear - the Interaural Time Difference (ITD - look it up). The measuring
the offset of the position of the nodes indicates sensitivity to full wave
lengths of time periods of 10 microseconds – that's 100 KHz.

That nucleus exists with several others- all working coherently but within
different realms and on different principles (The Interaural Phase Difference
(IPD) nucleus, pressure difference detection and many other interlinked neural 'coding'
systems for the brain to process). Bear with me on this it's worth it…

The experience of listening correlates with the various systems identified
in the brain. Maybe making an analogy with vision helps visualise (excuse pun) the mechanisms
at play. Our nervous systems
firstly identify light levels, then monochromatic imagery, then colour, and
finally depth of image. The clearer the view, the more information we
have and the higher the function is that comes into play and takes dominance.
The order of theses sensitivities correlates with the order they evolved (-
funny that - where did we come from?).

Aural sensitivity also seems to have a similar order of sensitisation - firstly we detect
vibration, then sound, then differences in pressure on each ear, bone and face
tissue, then phase differences (IPD) for
course directionality, and finally fine interaural time differences (ITD) for precise positional info.
All these systems work together to form our perception of space around us. We
need all the correct information for the brain to do the processing in a
complete way.

Back to the visual analogy. At the cinema we switch off our 3D judgement and enjoy a film
never the less, fooling ourselves that the action is really in front of us.
Totally enjoyable, but we 'know' that the picture is a 2D image- we just
suspend that sensitivity. 3D (albeit in its post primeval bog infancy) adds
something and brings depth. It does not reduce our experience of the excellence
and 'realism' of the 2D cinema or even monochromatic films of the past.

Audio is the similar- good reproduction with detailed timing thrown
away can and generally will sound good these days – It's a basic 2D image we
can get- sometimes with a bit of fundamental depth separation and a basic,
course 3D imagery. At this stage the interaural phase difference bit may be
dominant. With the detailed timing info lost or masked, either through poor
sampling, jitter or the addition of noise, the ITD nucleus simply has nothing
to work on and so our minds switch of that sensitivity – and we still enjoy the
music, listening to the dominant bass, the sweetness of the violins….whatever…but
with the timing maintained and reproduced faithfully (from well recorded and
mastered source material), then our brains ITD nucleus contributes to our
sensing and starts to be able to place the images in 3d as recorded. Simple
really.

What's interesting is that people with diminished hearing do not loose
their ability to locate the source of the sounds that they can hear – the IPD
and ITD measure is still active and sensitive to low frequencies. In fact in
blind people and people with diminished hearing range this ability seems to be
more dominant. My first hand and somewhat shock of an experience of this was
when I was knocked sideways when a guy walked into a room with hearing aids whistling
with feedback because they had so much gain, and he turned to me and asked why
I had changed the cable back (I had swapped cables back when he was out the
room without him knowing)…I know it defies common sense….but what do we know….I also used to work with Robbin Millar, a very talented producer. He went totally blind, but his sense of directionality with sound become incredable

When a record- replay chain has absolute timing integrity to the high frequencies,
instruments can be placed and there is a separation that then comes into being,
and things take the position they were recorded at...recording and microphone technique
allowing....

As mentioned earlier, its not only loss of timing info during the recordings,
but masking of the detail that counts. Noise and jitter being typical masks. That's
why, when you lower the noise floor the separation comes back to represent the recording
environment as the mics compounded together to captured it. Mains hum, switch mode
HF, unstable system zero volts plane and eddy currents all contribute as noise.
Perhaps that explains your experience.

How it is recorded is a different matter - ever wondered why orchestras and
classic 'greats' sound wonderful against some of the impeccably produced blandness
we have to put up with? Maybe it's something to do with the fact that the perennial
greats that keep popping up in remixes etc and most classical recordings are
done as a groups so that the mics pick up ambient information from all round
the room; - timing about the room and where the instruments are is captured.
The violin mic will pick up the clarinet microseconds later, and vice versa.
Good mic technique creates wonderful recordings. Pre 1985 pop recordings tended
to be done this way (Queen, The Who, The Beatles, Elvis). The basic tracks were
laid in one take, versus today's anodyne track by track layering. Food for
thought all you music lovers out there....

Finally, for whoever posted a pic of the Lochness monster, I
agree- there is a similarity between the two- the similarity between the ITD and
IPD nucleus research and the Lochness Monster is that they have both been
difficult to tie down and
analyse– the difference is that the aural nervous system is being researched and documented in
university hospital archives and in reputable medical journals such as the
Lancet. But what do I know….
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
maxflinn- oh dear- I understand your frustrations- I have sat through presentations
of the most wicked snake oils not knowing whether to shout 'Fraud', get angry,
or laugh. Usually I just smile and feel sorry for the people listening who
don't have the experience or training to dissect the info. Actually I think the
cable industry has bu....ered itself by too many 'I can too' companies marketing OK
ish cable with little real credibility to some of their claims and pseudo science
attached. Who was it that quoted ' quantum science is used in the production of
our cable' (I know who it was but I am not going to say...)

The relationship between copper and electricity is about as stable at the relationship
between a man and a woman- purely circumstantial. In copper it depends on the
form of the copper- its mass, surface area and a few other things. A simple
example of this is why lighting spikes are spiked shaped. How a cable conducts
an altering current depends absolutely on its form and the dielectric. And the
way this works is very much dependant on the range of frequencies it is to
operate with.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hi IDC - no blind tests on the new Studio Connections stuff, but if anyone there wants it to be the subject of tests I don't mind a bit. (Any mags out there want to give it a go?....).

As you might expect I was very nervous when first taking it out for listening tests, ( last October) - the worst that could happen in my world is that some says 'it OK' Sorry - years of bloody work gone into this! But it consistently performed well so I am happy.

The distributors who know their stuff all says it's very good stuff - interestingly you do hear its right straight away on a decent system with a record of good providence.

Unfortunately the Hi FI business is really a small world these days, so nobody is getting rich from this kind of thing as they may have done prior to the advent of instant gratification formats of the late eighties.

I actually have a day job- making this cable was a (very expensive) pet project spin off from all the hours I've spent in the pro and domestic business so I am not too attached to the market. I love audio stuff ( have done since I was six) and am lucky enough (though that's a matter of opinion) to scrape a living from it - but most of all I enjoy working stuff through - trying to make sense of what people claim to hear and not hear, and to try and understand where the differences emanate from. Luckily I have had the luxury of some good resources and worked in some interesting companies do carry out research and experiments

.
I really hope that some of what I have written makes sense to some people out there. I might not be 'right' about some stuff, and we all have our own opinions, but I do try and reason stuff through from a pragmatic basis and bring some coherence to the arguments that go around. I also believe that when people claim to hear something, or not to hear it, then that is real and investigation needs to be put into as to why the differences are there. Hearing is our most developed sense and is far more advanced and sensitive than most people realise.

It astonishes me that high end audio is still seems to be dipping into the state of black art. In the 60's I think audio was quite well understood, but it has become so smoked and mirrored that people don't know what to trust and many don't even trust their own ears becuase they don't know what they are being served. Many people in high end audio won't even voice their own beliefs now or admit they don't understand. ...I'd better stop there as I am not interested in the politics and I can feel a rant coming on.....

Any mags up for an ABX test?
 

BenLaw

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Nov 21, 2010
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Send me a couple of your top of the range cables for free and I'll ABX test for ya
emotion-5.gif


Edit: that made a bit more sense before the mod!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I know it made more sense before the Mods edits, but rules is rules. I'll try and put a bit if what was there in without overtly saying how I figured that the cable is good. (???) Hey ho...but I think the 'Do you also sell cocaine to kids' quote quite funny...
 
D

Deleted member 2457

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Too think i started too think Andrew might be Max a while back
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Clare Newsome

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Andrew Everard:
1. Please don't discuss moderation, all of you
2. There's more than one moderator, you know...
3. As ever, gel, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

emotion-21.gif
(x3)
 
D

Deleted member 2457

Guest
Andrew Everard:

1. Please don't discuss moderation, all of you
2. There's more than one moderator, you know...
3. As ever, gel, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Just the way you and Max started to interact about 5 months ago, got seriously strange
emotion-21.gif
 
A

Anonymous

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[EDITED BY MODS - WELCOME TO THE FORUMS, BUT PLEASE RE-READ HOUSE RULES. THANKS!]
 

Andrew Everard

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gel said:
Andrew Everard:

1. Please don't discuss moderation, all of you
2. There's more than one moderator, you know...
3. As ever, gel, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Just the way you and Max started to interact about 5 months ago, got seriously strange
emotion-21.gif
No, I leave the talking to myself to you, gel...
 
D

Deleted member 2457

Guest
Andrew Everard said:
gel said:
Andrew Everard:

1. Please don't discuss moderation, all of you
2. There's more than one moderator, you know...
3. As ever, gel, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Just the way you and Max started to interact about 5 months ago, got seriously strange
emotion-21.gif

No, I leave the talking to myself to you, gel...

It did get pretty surreal on here though :), which is what got me wondering.
 
D

Deleted member 2457

Guest
gel said:
Andrew Everard said:
gel said:
Andrew Everard:

1. Please don't discuss moderation, all of you
2. There's more than one moderator, you know...
3. As ever, gel, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Just the way you and Max started to interact about 5 months ago, got seriously strange
emotion-21.gif

No, I leave the talking to myself to you, gel...

It did get pretty surreal on here though :), which is what got me wondering.

Now i find it funny that thought crossed my mind back then.
smiley-smile.gif
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
HIFISCIENCE said:
[EDITED BY MODS - WELCOME TO THE FORUMS, BUT PLEASE RE-READ HOUSE RULES. THANKS!]

Nice of you to welcome me to the forum and then automatically ban me at the same time.

Whats that all about.

Explain.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I have read this thread with great interest, as I have been dogged with inconsistent performance from my hi-fi for some time now.

Yesterday, I was listening to a CD on my NaimUniti, and was enjoying the music.

Today? Well, something wasn't right, because a layer of clarity and prescence was missing. I was listening to the same CD, on the same system, and nothing in my house had changed at all. I use braided mains cables that were hand-made from e-bay, with ferrite beads, and a Tachima filter block (which I know had a positive effect from the moment I first used it).

I decided to do some research, and came to the conclusion that expensive mains cables were probably not worth the money, but that paying attention to the earth might have some performance benefits.

Anyway, at the rear of the Uniti, there is a switch that allows you to select the type of ground - either a floating ground inside the box, or an external earth, presumably through the third pin of the mains cable or through the RCA phono cables connected to it. I noticed that it was set to the external earth, and decided to switch over to the floating ground.

The music appears to be more correctly rendered, and can follow the music better. Timing is improved, as has the bass, which appears to be more tuneful and under better control.

I would welcome some comments on this.

Dave
 

KEV EDWARDS

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Hello, can i thank you for your full explanation of Hi Performance cables for Hi-Fi systems. I look at it this way, although i do agree with everything you explained so well, if you have spent a moderate amount of cash on a system then a couple of hundred quid on better cables wont hurt, if you have spent thousends of a true high end system then a couple of grand is not going to break the bank is it. In my opinion if you have spent a lot of time and effort choosing, setting up and listen attentivley and your happy to spend a fortune on cables and filters that make you feel that the sound quality from your system is better for it then who am i to criticise. If you spend 10% of the value of your system on cables then in my opinion that is about right.
 

KEV EDWARDS

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I had a 3 series Naim system a couple of years ago and found that the sound quality was at best "Iffy" during the day, bloody awful around 5pm to 8pm then improved to what i would consider "its best performance" around 9pm to midnight. In my opinion it is what everyone else is doing around you that causes the problems. Its all to do with mains noise, everytime someone in our house turned on a hair drier the three transformers in the two NAP 90s and the Flat Cap would hum so loud that the things vibrated. I put it down to a poor household earthing and sank a 5 foot copper rod in the back garden and earthed it direct to my system. Vast improvement. As was explained earlier on by someone in this thread, 'The only way to get rid of mains noise is to send it to earth' Try that, it may help in your Naim unit.
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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Ahem, KEV, this thread is over two years old, I'm not sure anyone's still listening.

We have another mains cable thread that's active at the moment, but I don't think they're actually talking about cables any more, it's difficult to tell sometimes...
 
R

rodthesod2012

Guest
My original realisation that mains cable DO make a difference was while in the RAF living in a barrack block. I made a stand for my National Panasonic Music Centre. in it I needed to have more sockets so I fitted four extra sockets. Connecting these was a single cable whiich because of a shortage of the desired size was made of very thick cable. The difference was pronounced. Why I have no idea. I have read many articles saying this is not possible and they are obviously very clever people. But I know there is a difference. Whether it is to do with RFI is not for me to say, all I know is it makes an audible difference.
 

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