Longterm streaming source: upgrade potential and such Naim etc

mattmeer

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Hi,

I am looking for a streaming source that will pull music files from a NAS network drive, attached by LAN wire (not wifi).

Two products I could afford right now and are interested in, are the Naim UnitiQute and Musical Fidelity M1 Clic. It is very important the DAC in the streamer is very good and can handle amplifier upgrades over time.

The Naim is basically an all-in-one, which is a streamer, DAC and integrated amplifier (although 30W). But you can upgrade it with their seperate Naim DAC, Naim amplifiers, seperate power supply etc.

The Musical Fidelity is just a DAC and pre-amp. But can be connected to a seperate power amplifier.

Speakers are PMC DB1i.

I already figure the 30W of the Naim UnitiQute will not be sufficient for the PMC's (not in the longterm), so I have a feeling I might be overpaying for alot of functions in the Naim UnitiQute I will not use in a few years. I like that the Musical Fidelity is just a DAC and pre-amp, and needs to be connected to a seperate power-amplifier, which will give my PMC's enough power. I suspect the MF does a good job at being a DAC and pre-amp, and therefor can put more money towards a good power amplifier.

But the Naim-all-in-one, I just wonder if the DAC inside the Naim UnitiQute can "keep up" if I upgrade everything else of the Naim? I like how the Musical Fidelity is just a DAC and pre-amp. If I add a seperate Naim amplifier to the Naim UnitiQute, will the DAC of the Naim still be very good? In the longterm, it would be unhandy to have to add a seperate Naim DAC, seperate Naim amplifier etc to the Qute, and would be very pricey.

So which one would be the better DAC in the longterm, keeping in mind the upgrade of a seperate amplifier which will come..?
 
A

Anonymous

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Hi mattmeer,

Personnaly, I'm not sure there is an easy answer to your question. The set up and budget (actual and future) you are talking about can take many different directions and at the end it's what you hear that will answer you.

The best I could answer is sharing my personnal view on my set up. My "new" second hand Qute will for sure handle my need for long time as for DAC point of view considering that I'm not going to build a specific dedicated listening room and overall budget I'm limiting myself for audio gear. (I did heard other DAC, and I would need spend a way too much money for me to enjoy a real step in sound upgrade. All that for a 3 or 4% sound upgrade...?)

If at some point my room get bigger I'll get a power amplifier.

If in a few years I totaly change my mind, I can easily put the Qute in another room like bed room or kitchen. The Qute is so small and easy to connect. And worst case I can always easily sell it for another setup (Second hand Naim don't stay long time on the market in my area
smiley-smile.gif
(Montreal)).

This is only my very personnal taste and point of view. I hope some how it can help you make up your mind. Let's not forget that building a setup is also very exiting! So enjoy!
smiley-wink.gif
 

kevinJ

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The new magazine has a group test of streamers made by Cambridge Audio, Marantz, Denon and NAD. Maybe it's worth taking a look at those too?
 

tino

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Yamaha NPS2000 ... was over £1400 a couple of months back ... now £699.

Good reviews, impressive build quality, good DAC and balanced analogue outputs, but limited to 24 bit / 96 kHz resolution.

Lots of new products sprouting up everywhere in the streamer world e.g. Cambridge Stream Magic 6, Pioneer N-30 and N-50 etc. etc. etc.
 

Dan Turner

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Mattmeer - I think you should decide on your future budget as well as your current one and come up with a plan to get you to where you ultimately want to be so that you don't end up wasting money in the short term.

You don't say whether you already have the PMCs or have just decided to buy them, and whether you have an existing system already.

If you already have the PMCs and any kind of amp then i'd say that you should buy a pure source component even if that means saving for longer to get the one that you want and then concentrate on an amp upgrade later.

If you don't already have an amp then I would advise you to continue saving until you can afford to buy both the streamer and the amp that you are going to be happy with long term - if you go for a all-in-one just because that's what you can afford now, but ultimately aspire to something better then I think it will be a recipe for 'upgradeitis' and result in you spending more money in the long run.

That said you should try the Unitiqute - 30w might not sound like much on paper, but unless you've got a very large room (which I doubt given that you're going for fairly small speakers) then I'm sure it will be more than you'll ever need, and more than enough for the DB1is
 

mattmeer

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Well I already have the speakers, source is Squeezebox and cheap Rega amplifier. The speakers are the latest addition, the other 2 are things I already had for a few years. I can continue with this, but I feel the Squeezebox is just temporary and rega might not be the best combination with PMC. No worries, I can sell those :shifty:

PMC+Naim seems to be a good match, I know about Bryston but don't like them as much. I have heard Naim amplifiers and CD players alot with friends and I like them.

I know I want a good streaming source+DAC, but I also know if I go the Naim route, I will want a 2nd hand Naim power amp (NAP155 or NAP200). The UnitiQute can take the preamp output to the NAP. But if the NAP200 is overkill for the DAC inside the Unitiqute...

Musical Fidelity seems to be more polite sonically, but maybe I am wrong
 

Dan Turner

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Matt - buy once and buy right I say. The logitech is a very well regarded streamer so I would be inclined to change your amp first and then save again for a top notch streamer.

If you like the Naim sound then you could look at the Nait XS (which would be a great match for your speakers I'm sure) or maybe a second hand pre/power combo.

Naim streamer in the 'XS' range is the ND5XS which is about £2k I think.
 

CnoEvil

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Generally speaking, if you like the Naim sound, nothing else seems to quite fit the bill....but saying that, I suggest you also get a listen to the Linn Sneaky before parting with any money (has a competent 20W built in amp).

The Yamaha is definitely worth a look (as suggested), given its price...but may be too laid back after the Naim.
 

mattmeer

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The ND5 NS still requires an integrated amp or pre+power amplifier, it seems a bit pricey for what it is. (Same with NDX etc). I could connect it to my current amplifier, but for this price I could buy the unitiqute aswell.

The uniti or unitiqute however, can still act as a pre-amplifier when connecting it to a mighty power amplifier.

I think it is clear I prefer a good amplifier especially a power amplifier. And not to many boxes.

If I stick with the squeezebox, I would have to buy an integrated amp or pre and power. But this would eventually lead to a Naim streaming source over the years anyway, to complete the picture.

So 1)stick with squeezebox, upgrade amplifier, and buy naim streaming source later.

2) Replace squeezebox with unitiqute or uniti and later add a seperate amplifier.This would be just 2 boxes.

3) Buy Musical Fidelity M1 Clic and connect to current amp, replace amp later with the M1 power amp. Cheaper and also 2 boxes.

Well just to get back to topic, would there be a huge difference in DAC between the different Naim streamers (Uniti, UnitiQute, NDX, ND5 NS)? If not, why should I not settle for a Naim Uniti/UnitiQute and have only 1 upgrade left in the future, the power amp?
 

paradiziac

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mattmeer said:
So 1)stick with squeezebox, upgrade amplifier, and buy naim streaming source later.

2) Replace squeezebox with unitiqute or uniti and later add a seperate amplifier.This would be just 2 boxes.

3) Buy Musical Fidelity M1 Clic and connect to current amp, replace amp later with the M1 power amp. Cheaper and also 2 boxes.

To add even more confusion how about:

4) Upgrade Squeezebox to Squeezebox touch (if not already), buy M-DAC and shortly a good power amp.

Oops, that's 3 boxes (and 4 if you use an iThingy to control it all).

Looking at the price of the Unitiqute, you could prolly do it all in one hit (that's if the Unitiqute by itself wouldn't do the job...)
 
T

the record spot

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No surprises from me here, but give the Onkyo I use a spin. Don't scoff at the price before trying, this is one of the most flexible amps out there just now, but it doesn't skimp on sound quality either. Best thing I've owned and I've had a fair bit over the years.
 

noogle

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The DACs in the more expensive Naim kit are asynchronous so they eliminate jitter. Don't underestimate the output power of the Qute - it is more punchy than you'd expect.
 

mitch65

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noogle said:
The DACs in the more expensive Naim kit are asynchronous so they eliminate jitter. Don't underestimate the output power of the Qute - it is more punchy than you'd expect.

I agree noogle, 30w doesn't seem much and comparing it with the Uniti's 50w I hardly noticed the difference. Even though the Qute is an all-in-one that does't stop anyone from adding to it in the future as funds allow (NAP155xs/200 for example and then you could go mad and add a naim DAC into the mix), in fact you could end up with the Qute being a source only. Worth noting that the DAC in the Qute is a good one - do Naim use a bad one? - The major plus here is the rock hard residuals on Naim gear........oh, and let's face it, they are a class act.
 

mattmeer

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If i decide to go with naim as a longterm streaming source, its either the unitiqute or uniti. I suspect the seperate naim dac will be nearly as good as the internal dac inside the uniti and unitiqute. The uniti can however be upgraded with a seperate power supply and the unitiqute cannot. I know a dac can really benefit from a power supply upgrade, even naim, so i am inclined to go with the naim uniti and not the qute as a longterm streaming source. Then the first upgrade would be the power supply, which will lift the dac inside the uniti to even further heights, and a 2nd upgrade i might, if it is really needed, connect a power amplifier if i feel the 50watts of the uniti are not enough, but according to several comments that will probably not be the case. The unitiqute doesnt allow a seperate power supply, so the internal dac cannot be improved. It can have an external naim dac though, but that is a bit pointless if i could go for the uniti now.

so uniti->power supply sounds good right as a longterm streaming source?
 

noogle

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The stand-alone Naim DAC is streets ahead of the DAC in the Uniti. I'd start off with the Naim DAC and commodity streamer rather than Uniti and external PSU.
 

mattmeer

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Hmm did some more thinking about that noogle.

so it could be:

1) Naim DAC, later a Naim UnitiQute as the source for the DAC.

2) Naim NDX as top notch source+dac combined (and can even handle a PSU)

both are similar in price, possibly the first choice is cheaper since there are already some Naim DAC's on the 2nd hand market. The WHF review of the NDX states upgrading the internal dac makes only sense if replaced by for example the Naim DAC. But I like the thought of the streamer+dac combined in one box. The NDX seems to be very good at timing, and fluid dynamics. The Naim DAC might be a bit more dynamic and bolder from what I have read, but less fluid. I must say I am more impressed with what I have read about the NDX.

Convince me why the DAC inside the NDX would not be good enough for a longterm source?

From another site: You should probably regard adding the Naim DAC as an icing-on-the-cake move, because the integral DAC in the NDX is based on the same technology and its performance does not lag too far behind. It uses the same innovative, SHARC DSP-based buffering with fixed clocks, along with Naim's proprietary 16 times oversampling and low generated noise, digital filtering algorithms, for example, uses very similar RAM buffer and master-clock jitter-removal techniques as the 'big' Naim DAC.
 

mitch65

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mattmeer said:
Hmm did some more thinking about that noogle.

so it could be:

1) Naim DAC, later a Naim UnitiQute as the source for the DAC.

2) Naim NDX as top notch source+dac combined (and can even handle a PSU)

both are similar in price, possibly the first choice is cheaper since there are already some Naim DAC's on the 2nd hand market. The WHF review of the NDX states upgrading the internal dac makes only sense if replaced by for example the Naim DAC. But I like the thought of the streamer+dac combined in one box. The NDX seems to be very good at timing, and fluid dynamics. The Naim DAC might be a bit more dynamic and bolder from what I have read, but less fluid. I must say I am more impressed with what I have read about the NDX.

Convince me why the DAC inside the NDX would not be good enough for a longterm source?

From another site: You should probably regard adding the Naim DAC as an icing-on-the-cake move, because the integral DAC in the NDX is based on the same technology and its performance does not lag too far behind. It uses the same innovative, SHARC DSP-based buffering with fixed clocks, along with Naim's proprietary 16 times oversampling and low generated noise, digital filtering algorithms, for example, uses very similar RAM buffer and master-clock jitter-removal techniques as the 'big' Naim DAC.

Interesting choice - I am following your first one at the moment with the UnitiQute followed by a NAP200 followed by the Naim DAC then I will decide if I want to dump the UnitiQute for a dedicated Naim Streamer..........decisions, decisions :)

The great thing is that the Qute is an excellent product on it's own so i am in no hurry to spend loads of cash........just yet.
 

mattmeer

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mitch65 said:
Interesting choice - I am following your first one at the moment with the UnitiQute followed by a NAP200 followed by the Naim DAC then I will decide if I want to dump the UnitiQute for a dedicated Naim Streamer..........decisions, decisions :)

The great thing is that the Qute is an excellent product on it's own so i am in no hurry to spend loads of cash........just yet.

How is the pre-amp section of the UnitiQute? Did you experience a big improvement when you connected the NAP200 to the pre-out of the UnitiQute? What kind of change?

Thank you
 

noogle

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The DAC in the NDX is excellent and largely similar to the Naim DAC (e.g. they share common firmware). I just have a problem with paying a lot of money for the digital streamer in the NDX when you can do this just as well with other products for a lot less money. Does have a convenience/"lifestyle" benefit though. I also have doubts as to the wisdom of having an electrically noisy digital streamer in the same box as the DAC, although Naim are obsessive about isolating digital noise.

I started with a Uniti then added a NAP250 power amp. The 250 made a huge change to the presentation, e.g. dynamics and greatly improved bass.

I was happily using the Uniti as a pre-amp but then made the mistake of trying out a Naim pre-amp, which provided another huge boost
 

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