Kef Reference 205/2

frogfish

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I heard the above speakers last week-end and loved them on a variety of music (classical in particular) - Now I am not sure if my Sugden masterclass integrated amp would do them justice. Does anyone have any views/ experience with Kef Reference and Sugden ? It would be quite a stretch to get the Kef, and I don't want to change my amp in the near future.

Thanks !
 

CnoEvil

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Hi Frogfish, I may be able to help a little. I own 205/2s driven by a Class A Musical Fidelity AMS 35i and they sound stunning.

The thing about these speakers, is they will get better and better as as the quality of the amp improves. They are fairly efficient, but have an impedance that drops to 3.2 Ohms. This means that the amp must have big reserves of current....preferably doubling its power into 4 Ohms and even into 2 Ohms (if you're lucky).

What amp and source did you hear them with...and what source do you have at home?

Your question about whether the Sugden will drive them properly (do them justice) is a difficult one to answer, as it depends on your definition of "properly".....it also depends on what you're comparing it to.

What I will tell you, is that I haven't come across a 30-40W Class AB amp that would do them justice...but IMO. Class A is a different matter. What I can tell you, is that my 35W amp drives them better than any amp I've tried, up to a 300W Coda CSi. It won't of course go as loud (but loud enough in a large room with a high ceiling), but the transient response, bass punch, detail and realism, is better than anything I've heard under £10k.

I haven't heard them on the end of the IA-4 so please take my following comments in the light of this. I think the Sugden will drive them reasonably well, but it's certainly at the bottom end of what they should be powered with.

The IA-4 has 33W into 8 Ohms and 45W into 4 Ohms. Compare that to the AMS 35i which has 35W into 8 Ohms, 70W into 4 Ohms and nearly 140W into 2 Ohms. Don't get me wrong, the Sugden is a fantastic amp, which I would own if I hadn't thought the MF was worth the extra.

FWIW I think you should try it out and see what you think, and I think it will sound good....but further down the road, to do these speakers justice, you will need to look further up the Masterclass ladder, which is an expensive business (LA-4 Pre + MPA-4 Monos!!).

If there is anything else I can help with.....ask away.

Cno
 

CnoEvil

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Thinking about this a little more, you should not rule out the Kef R Series (probably R900). It would be a much easier load and might even sound better as a result.....this is food for thought, and something that should be tried before committing the amount of cash required.

One thing I can tell you....if you do get the 205/2s, there will always be temptation lurking around the corner, which you will end up giving in to, if you ever hear what these transducers are really capable of.......this shouldn't happen with the R Series to anything like the same extent.
 

frogfish

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Thanks for the feedback Cno, really appreciate - The source and amp they were NAD, not sure which models. Personally I use a Weiss DAC hooked to a mac mini as a source, which I really like.

I guess that I will have to bring my IA4 to the dealer, and see what happens... The Sugden monos are way out of my league, at least at the moment (but who knows in a few years ???)
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
Thanks for the feedback Cno, really appreciate - The source and amp they were NAD, not sure which models. Personally I use a Weiss DAC hooked to a mac mini as a source, which I really like.

I guess that I will have to bring my IA4 to the dealer, and see what happens... The Sugden monos are way out of my league, at least at the moment (but who knows in a few years ???)

This is the only sensible course of action. As well as Kef, you should also consider PMC Twenty Series and Proac (a known match for Sugden).

If you haven't read this, you might find it interesting:
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/driving-proac-d38s

I would be very interested in how you get on, so don't be a stranger when you have done your demo.

Cno
 

frogfish

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CnoEvil said:
This is the only sensible course of action. As well as Kef, you should also consider PMC Twenty Series and Proac (a known match for Sugden). If you haven't read this, you might find it interesting: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/driving-proac-d38s

I would be very interested in how you get on, so don't be a stranger when you have done your demo. Cno

I'll check those as well - Seems that proac D38 has now been replaced by D40 - Seems not much info on these available on the web; Never heard about the PMC Twenty series, so will investigate.

Not sure when I will have time to demo, but will post once done
smiley-wink.gif
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
I'll check those as well - Seems that proac D38 has now been replaced by D40 - Seems not much info on these available on the web; Never heard about the PMC Twenty series, so will investigate.

Not sure when I will have time to demo, but will post once done
smiley-wink.gif

Another thread that might be of interest to you (post No.4):
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/kef-r-series-range-vs-reference-range?page=2
 

Thaiman

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frogfish said:
Thanks for the feedback Cno, really appreciate - The source and amp they were NAD, not sure which models. Personally I use a Weiss DAC hooked to a mac mini as a source, which I really like.

I guess that I will have to bring my IA4 to the dealer, and see what happens... The Sugden monos are way out of my league, at least at the moment (but who knows in a few years ???)

Which Weiss?
 

Frank Harvey

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frogfish said:
I heard the above speakers last week-end and loved them on a variety of music (classical in particular) - Now I am not sure if my Sugden masterclass integrated amp would do them justice. Does anyone have any views/ experience with Kef Reference and Sugden ? It would be quite a stretch to get the Kef, and I don't want to change my amp in the near future. Thanks !

If you can take along your Masterclass amp for a demo with the 205/2's, that should give you all the info you need to know. The pairing should sound wonderful together once the IA4 has warmed up properly, and as long as you're not after club levels, I think you'd be happy with the combo. The 205/2's are one of my favourite floor standing loudspeakers, regardless of price.

If you can do that and report back, we can advise alternatives if for any reason the IA4/205 combo doesn't work out for you.
 

frogfish

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So did it today: brought my Sugden masterclass to a couple of shops and listened for a couple of hours to the 205/2 with the Sugdden on a variety of music classical piano, symphonic orchestral pieces, some more modern stuff (Nirvana, Radiohead, Pink Floyd and some soul music) and a bit of Opera and folk. I then moved to an other shop and did the same with Proac D40s.

So what can I say ? First that it is difficult to judge with a source you are not familar with, in a room that is very different from your lounge... Then I was not very convinced by the D40s: yes they are nice competent speakers, but I felt that they were quite similar to my Spendors, just better (at twice the price I guess it's normal...), but fairly similar presentation.

So back to the 205s: I actually really liked them, although I thought they sounded at times a little bright (but that may be due to the source, some NAD universal player), or maybe the cabling (Nordost); but generally assured, very detailed and musical at the same time. The Sugden could drive them to fairly high levels (more than my normal listening volume) and I thought piano was really beautiful as well as voices; rock was more of a mixed bag, some fantastic (Pink Floyd the Wall), some a little bit messy (Nirvana) - So summary I am quite tempted...

The dealer her in Singapore is offering Sing$ 12k, i.e. about 6k GBP. Is that a fair price ?
 

CnoEvil

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Glad you got to hear them, and thank you for reporting in.

I think you may have put your finger on the reason for what you heard. The Refs are very revealing of source and cabling. IMO You need a source more in line with the quality of amp + speakers.

Nordost cable is not to my taste, as I don't really get on with its rather lean presentation (though it's detailed and fast)....much preferring Cardas, which I think is much more musical.

Which finish has he quoted for....here are prices over here (£6k Satin; £8k Gloss):
http://www.hifix.co.uk/hi-fi-speakers/kef/205-2.html
 

frogfish

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Thanks for the link to the pricing, looks similar to what I get here.

Source wise, I use a Weiss DAC 202 which I am very happy with.

Guess I'll have to decide in the next few days... Unfortunately can't see any second hand offer for the speakers at the moment...
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
Source wise, I use a Weiss DAC 202 which I am very happy with.

Guess I'll have to decide in the next few days... Unfortunately can't see any second hand offer for the speakers at the moment...

The Weiss is fantastic, and should make a big difference.

Keep an eye out for Cardas cables ex-dem or 2nd Hand - just be aware there is counterfeit stuff out there (ask for the certificate of authenticity).

Most people buying Refs, hold onto them!

Let us know what you decide.

Cno
 

frogfish

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The dealer called today and told me that he just got a pair of 207/2 that are 6 months old, which he would sell at the price of new 205/2... Any thoughts ? Do you think it is worth considering/ demoing ?
 

frogfish

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I am not too worried about size - My room is 7m x 14m, but the lounge part where the speakers would be is roughly 7m x 7m, the other half being the dining room.
 
Hi frogfish

Looking at this from a different perspective i'll recommend that also looking a ATC's SCM50ASL, SCM100ASL or SCM150ASL active monitors. Ideally use the Weiss DAC202 as the pre amp directly into the ATC's or if you prefer the tonal presentation of Sugden then in the first instance you can use the L-A4 as a pre and then/or change to an LA-4.

This route can simplify your system and the quality of reproduction from the these big active monitors should be an eyeopener.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
I am not too worried about size - My room is 7m x 14m, but the lounge part where the speakers would be is roughly 7m x 7m, the other half being the dining room.

Well you certainly seem to have the space for them, and if you don't mind the "brooding looks", you should certainly give them a listen.

I have heard these speakers, and they are very impressive indeed. They have 2x10" woofers which produce wonderfully deep bass, which extends down to 26Hz (-6db). They have a 91db sensitivity, but an impedance that drops to 3 Ohms. They stand 4ft high and are 2ft 3ins deep.

Long term, these babies are crying out for some serious amplification (why not try some out of interest).

Please let me know how you get on.

Cno
 

frogfish

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CnoEvil said:
Well you certainly seem to have the space for them, and if you don't mind the "brooding looks", you should certainly give them a listen.

I have heard these speakers, and they are very impressive indeed. They have 2x10" woofers which produce wonderfully deep bass, which extends down to 26Hz (-6db). They have a 91db sensitivity, but an impedance that drops to 3 Ohms. They stand 4ft high and are 2ft 3ins deep.

Long term, these babies are crying out for some serious amplification (why not try some out of interest).

Please let me know how you get on.

Cno

Yes I am lucky space wise, much better than when I was living in Europe :) I agree with you that if I get them I would have to look at amplification in the future, but certainly not immediately - So the question is really whether I would enjoy them with my current config... 2 feet 3 inch deep, wow ! they will certainly stand out if I get them !

If I get you right, they need more power than the 205 ?
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
If I get you right, they need more power than the 205 ?

Ideally yes (but only a little),.......and if I was in your position, I would try them with the Sugden (this time with a better source), and provided they sounded OK, live with them until I could get the amp sorted out.

The potential (head room) they have is simply enormous, so you really need to hear what they're capable of.... and then you will realize what you're buying. Can your dealer set this up for you ie. both with the Sugden and then something compatible....what brands of source and amps do they stock?
 

Frank Harvey

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The Masterclass should drive the 207's (91dB), but don't expect to be able to reach earth shattering levels!

As Cno mentions, the 207's take up a lot more space than the 205's, and do need quite a large room in order to work well. Proximity to room boundaries isn't really an issue, it's just room size.

There's not the difference betwen the 205's and 207's that you'd think - they're basically the same, but the 207's do things more effortlessly as they have far more headroom. Of course, these need better amplification. I find the 205's sound wonderful with a Bryston 4Bsst2, whereas the 207's ideally need the monoblock versions, the 7Bsst2's.
 

CnoEvil

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Here is a good review from HiFi+, in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.cms1.se/userfiles/digitalbild/File/hifi+x205xii.pdf
 

frogfish

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After listening to the 207/2 for a couple of hours, couldn't resist... I am typing this as they just got installed, and they are indeed massive. But the music just flows ! Some would probably say that they need more current, but for the time I find my Sugden a very nice partner :)
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
After listening to the 207/2 for a couple of hours, couldn't resist... I am typing this as they just got installed, and they are indeed massive. But the music just flows ! Some would probably say that they need more current, but for the time I find my Sugden a very nice partner :)

Wow!

Well that's your speakers sorted for life! I bet they sound better with the Weiss as a source.

If you ever get the itch to upgrade, you should try the MF 35i, which sounds wonderful with the 205/2s and has more current than the Sugden.....but that's for another day.

Once it settles in, let us know how it sounds...I'm intrigued by what tipped the balance in favour of the 207s, though they will be brilliant in the size of room you have.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Cno
 

CnoEvil

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frogfish said:
The dealer called today and told me that he just got a pair of 207/2 that are 6 months old, which he would sell at the price of new 205/2... Any thoughts ? Do you think it is worth considering/ demoing ?

I will answer more in the evening, as I'm off to work now.

These are BIG imposing speakers, which are very deep (as in measurement, front to back). They need a large room room or they will over power for it.......fantastic speakers that should at least be tried.

Maybe David could give a view, especially on how the Sugden would manage.

Cno
 

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