Just won a second pair of Townshend Isolda Cable on Ebay!

[Thaiman]

Only if this forum have pm funtion! Then the debates could be done privately

I am give up with the cables thing.....I really am.

Why not have a read from the link below:

http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=103&Itemid=2

 

[Anonymous]

Ensuring your speaker cables are up to the job is probably one of the cheapest upgrades that can be made to a system. It's a pity that so many are trying to turn it into some sort of expensive black magic art.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Thaiman"]Only if this forum have pm funtion! Then the debates could be done privately

I am give up with the cables thing.....I really am.
[/quote]

All I wanted to do was tell the world of my Joy of getting a second pair of Isolda cables!

I didn't really expect to be cross examined by someone using rather dodgy science based on unfounded assumptions on the cable, why I biwire, my choice of other cables and whether I am biased towards branded cable, cable design parameters etc...

It is amazing that someone who has never heard/tested/measured a piece of equipment can have such a strong opinion. That he can also present this highly subjective (is it actually even subjective since he has such little actual information to be subjective with) opinion as if it was an absolute fact is almost laughable if it wasn't so profoundly sad.

Well from now on I think my replies to the individual in question ( if I can be bothered to) will be as flippant as I can make it.

 

[Anonymous]

Just been reading this thread and thought I would add my two peneth

One thing I noticed is that you are all talking about Inductance when the Isolda cables actually match Impedance!!!

Every other industry that deals with the transmission of an AC wave recognizes the importance of matching the Cable Impedance to the Load Impedance... If you do not you get standing wave reflections up and down the cable and this distorts the true waveform in fact if you get the cable length and the frequency just right (i.e. Wrong) this can be catastrophic.

Impedance(Z) is a product of the Inductance(L) minus the Capacitance(C) plus the Resistance(R) therefore increasing the Capacitance of the cable (by forming the cores into two long "Plates" with a thin dielectric between them will produce a cable with an inherent and controllable Impedance to match the speaker loading.

As has also been mentioned there is also a "Network" fitted to the ends of the cable to stop some amplifiers getting in a twist... I don't know but I would suggest that this is tuned to RF frequencies and is to stop Radio and Microwave energy being fed into the output stage of the Amp due to the Cable acting as a Dipole Ariel and damping at these V high frequencies aint going to effect your sound stage, in fact this sort of network already exists inside many amps.

Like I say, just my two peneth

Andy

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Kaptainkayll"]. I don't know but I would suggest that this is tuned to RF frequencies and is to stop Radio and Microwave energy being fed into the output stage of the Amp due to the Cable acting as a Dipole Ariel [/quote]

It's to stop the amp oscillating at a high frequency and blowing itself and the tweeters up.

They don't accurately match impedance anyway because the output impedance of an amplifier is around 0.2 ohms, so low that the only really important quality of a speaker cable is minimal losses caused by voltage drop. Curiously they don't seem to worry at all about impedance matching on their interconnects and as for that cryogenic stuff, well, it's laughable really.

I'd love to know the exact values of the components so I can copy them and get them manufactured in China.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]and as for that cryogenic stuff, well, it's laughable really.[/quote]

** Wikipedia Lies all Lies warning **

I remember coming across this somewhere quite a while ago, something to do with Peter "Blue Sellotape" Belt I think? Anyway, thing is for lots of stuff it's a serious technology (cryogenics, not blue sellotape) - people do treat stuff at super low temperatures to change their behaviour at normal temperatures (or even very high ones like brake pads experience). Whether or not this could ever have any seriously notable affect in an audio system I find extremely questionable, but as ever I'll not discount it any more than accept it without some evidence. Equally I'm highly unlikely to spend any money on anything to do with it...

And come on, admit it old chap, even you must have had moments of weakness where you've thought - well what harm would it really do to put a CD in the freezer overnight and then warm it up nice and slowly - what have I got to lose? And then gone - "NOOOOO! Rubbish, Poppycock, Balderdash!" (translates as: if any of my friends ever found out I just couldn't live with it.)

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="jimwall"]people do treat stuff at super low temperatures to change their behaviour at normal temperatures (or even very high ones like brake pads experience). Whether or not this could ever have any seriously notable affect in an audio system I find extremely questionable, but as ever I'll not discount it any more than accept it without some evidence.[/quote]

OK, lets assume it does do something. Let's assume that the wire becomes a better conductor. What would that do to the sound of an interconnect? Absolutely nothing, because the impedances are so high in comparison with the cable. You can stick a resistance of 100ohms in there and it won't affect the sound at all. How about a speaker lead? Well that's easily duplicated simply by using larger gauge wire.

[quote user="jimwall"] come on, admit it old chap, even you must have had moments of weakness where you've thought - well what harm would it really do to put a CD in the freezer overnight and then warm it up nice and slowly [/quote]

I can honestly say I have never considered it because its pointless. I've put one in the microwave and watched it sparkle though, equally pointless . :O)

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]OK, lets assume it does do something. Let's assume that the wire becomes a better conductor. What would that do to the sound of an interconnect? Absolutely nothing, because the impedances are so high in comparison with the cable. You can stick a resistance of 100ohms in there and it won't affect the sound at all. How about a speaker lead? Well that's easily duplicated simply by using larger gauge wire.[/quote]

Fair enough and completely consistent with your overall opinion of such things. For some reason this sounds insulting, but it's really not meant to be.

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]I can honestly say I have never considered it because its pointless. I've put one in the microwave and watched it sparkle though, equally pointless . :O)[/quote]

I've bought a few disks I've been tempted to do that to as well...

 

[Anton90125]

Its no point arguing with him. He has his blinkers on. Anything outside his field of view is non existent. Reality and physics be dammed.

Besides if he happy with his system the way its is - thats fine no one is forcing him to buy different cable anyway. I am quite happy to let him miss out on a greater sound experience.

I am also quite happy for him think smugly that we are deluding ourselves

I will enjoy what I have got and he can enjoy what he has got. Everyone's happy.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"]
Its no point arguing with him. He has his blinkers on. Anything outside his field of view is non existent. Reality and physics be dammed.

Besides if he happy with his system the way its is - thats fine no one is forcing him to buy different cable anyway. I am quite happy to let him miss out on a greater sound experience.

I am also quite happy for him think smugly that we are deluding ourselves

I will enjoy what I have got and he can enjoy what he has got. Everyone's happy.
[/quote]

The claims of your favoured Hi-fi manufacturer are mainly scientific sounding gobbledegook (physics be damned indeed) but you're quite right about me being happy. I am. Very.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]The claims of your favoured Hi-fi manufacturer are mainly scientific sounding gobbledegook [/quote]

Please explain in detail. I know that characteristic impedance although correct is not entirely relevant at audio frequencies. But the rest. you will need to explain (with reference to any scientific papers/ research from an accredited scientific body ie not random ranting on an obscure website) as to why it is gobbledegook.

I am afraid you simply stating that its gobbledegook doesn't cut it

Just because you think an effect is not true does not make it so.

As for favoured, well are you saying that I should go for equipment that imo doesn't sound good? Or is it that I favour it because of high resolution performance. If you have never actually auditioned the cable you are not actually qualified to comment on its performance or any comment you do make carries as much weight as a wild guess (which makes it pretty worthless).

Out of interest what do you consider are the good values for a speaker cable in terms of Capacitance (C) ,Inductance (I) and resistance (R)? Please don't down grade the values of C & I to negligible because they are not Zero.

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]physics be damned indeed[/quote]

Well you are very selective with the physics you accept and you dismiss things out of hand. I am now asking you to justify your statement (not with wild assumptions) .

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"]I know that characteristic impedance although correct is not entirely relevant at audio frequencies.[/quote]

Not at all relevant for 2 reasons. It's only important at radio frequencies above 100khz and the source, the amplifier, has a low output impedance, around 0.2 ohms, so accurate impedance matching to an 8 ohm load is neither possible or necessary anyway.

[quote user="Anton90125"]what do you consider are the good values for a speaker cable in terms of Capacitance (C) ,Inductance (I) and resistance (R)[/quote]

Capacitance and inductance should be as low as possible but aren't really an issue in speaker cables unless they are of unusual design.. The resistance should also be as low as possible obviously. Do you have the figures for Isolda? My guess is very high capacitance (unrolled capacitor) and inductance (caused by the choke made necessary by the high capacitance.). Interestingly they place great emphasis on the entirely irrelevant characteristic impedance of the cable but don't even mention the capacitance, inductance or the all important resistance.

The stuff about characteristic impedance is therefore technical sounding gobbledegook.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]Capacitance and inductance should be as low as possible[/quote]

So what are good/ acceptable values? You still have actually stated that.

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]The stuff about characteristic impedance is therefore technical sounding gobbledegook.[/quote]

It not gobbledegook! its a real physical property of the cable and is only dependent on the cable geometry and dielectric. I have already stated that its not entirely relevant at audio frequencies and I know it really applies to when cable lengths start approaching signal wavelengths. I am not going to argue that it value in impedance matching helps with the sound quality .

Now Mr Townshend states in no uncertain terms that the Isolda cable (which is inclusive of the network) has a characteristic impedance (Z0) of 8 Ohms. This is useful to calculate the inductance of the cable.

The formula for Z0 is SquareRoot( Inductance divided by capacitance) . We can use the Goertz cable capacitance figures (as this is probably the source of Mr Townshend's Isolda cables) of between 0.5nF/ft to 1.5nF/ft.

Since Mr Townshend also states that the network only contains an inductor and a resistor in parallel we can safely say there is no extra capacitance to consider.

As already correctly stated by another poster, the network as well as acting as a stabilizer (to stop certain amps oscillating) is also a RF filter (Also stated by Mr Townshend in his web page). I am not going to use this fact however.

This gives inductance figures 30nH/ft to 96nH/ft

Now most cable manufactures seem very reticent to publish their cable Inductance/Capacitance figures, I had to look quite hard on the internet.

The Belden Cable company seem to be one of the biggest manufactures. I got the following figures:

For 9718 12 AWG High-Conductivity Copper Speaker Cable Parallel Zip Cord : 0.2uH/ft or 200nH

Assuming the very worst figures of 96nH/ft then this is still less then the 200nH for the Belden cables.

No doubt you will correct me if I have made a calculation blunder

Now as Oldphrt has correctly stated (In another post) the capacitance although high is of little relevance to the sound quality of the cable as it is a parallel capacitance between one conductor and the return conductor.

 

[Anonymous]

You have to admire the likes of Mr. Townshend. Marketing genius.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]You have to admire the likes of Mr. Townshend. Marketing genius.[/quote]

His cables speak for them selves without the marketing. Just take a look at the Hifi Choice reviews over the last few years!

Or even better still why don't you make an informed view by first auditioning them? I can then take your comments more seriously without laughing too much. Or feeling sorry for you!

You favourite phrase is "Foolish is as foolish does". Well how foolish is it to make absolute comments about about items you have never heard?

To assume that you know the performance of something based solely on a caricature of physics you call your theory is laughable.

No scientist would ever be conceited enough to make such assumptions based on theory without first testing it.

And it is insulting to call someone an idiot on ANY grounds let alone the ones which contradict your own highly subjective views (subjective because they are based on untested/ proven assumptions ).

You are of course entitled to your own opinion provided you respect other peoples opinion. In my opinion there is no place in this forum for this type insulting behaviour.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"]even better still why don't you make an informed view by first auditioning them? [/quote]

They're a joke. The construction is a joke, the "science" quoted in the spec is a joke and the price is the biggest and most outrageous joke of all.

[quote user="Anton90125"]Just take a look at the Hifi Choice reviews over the last few years! [/quote]

Have they reviewed normal wire as a control?

 

[Andrew Everard]

You remind me of a friend of mine who's never tasted bananas because she knows she won't like them.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Andrew Everard"]
You remind me of a friend of mine who's never tasted bananas because she knows she won't like them.

[/quote]

I don't see a review of bog standard stranded 6mm (my cable) or Isolda in What Hi-fi so you hardly have room to talk.

Is Isolda too expensive even for you?

Merry Christmas.

 

[Andrew Everard]

The absence of a review in the magazine doesn't mean I haven't tried a large number of cables, including bellwire and various stranded and solid core types in the past. One of my first systems was hooked up with the old QED 79-strand, and I also tried 30A solid-core cooker cable when that had a brief period of being a fashionable DIY choice.

But hey, no-one's forcing anyone to buy anything here - the reviewers simply report what they hear, and rate products accordingly. If readers choose not to take the advice, or take a listen for themselves and can hear no improvement, then they won't buy the cable, simple as that.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]

They're a joke. The construction is a joke, the "science" quoted in the spec is a joke and the price is the biggest and most outrageous joke of all.[/quote]

Your must be a comedian! you are so funny with your nonsensical almost whimsical reply. Its wonderful how you completely dodge actually justifying any of your statements. I think Jeremy Paxman would have a hard time getting any actual information ( provided he could stop laughing to get his words out ! ).

I especially love the way you give your completely unsubstantiated view as a hard fact and wallow in the self satisfaction on not needing to lower yourself to our mundane level requiring some kind of proof / documentation /audition. You are so breathtaking in the way you disdain in providing actual research sources which conclusively show that any of the science quoted in the specs is questionable.

[quote user="Keith McAlpine"]Have they reviewed normal wire as a control?[/quote]

They probably have but thats something you will have to discuss with them. Maybe send them a few pointers on how to review equipment properly. I am sure they will benefit from your wise insightful knowledge. Maybe they can take a leaf from your book and not bother to get review samples but still write a review on the basis of how they think it ought to sound.

Mr McAlpine your are a hoot! and very welcome addition to the seasons jollities. I am already looking forwards your next round McAlpineisms. I better stop now as I have a stomach ache from laughing too much!

 

[Andrew Everard]

[quote user="Keith McAlpine"][quote user="Andrew Everard"]
You remind me of a friend of mine who's never tasted bananas because she knows she won't like them.

[/quote]

I don't see a review of bog standard stranded 6mm (my cable) or Isolda in What Hi-fi so you hardly have room to talk.

Is Isolda too expensive even for you?

Merry Christmas.[/quote]

That'll be an edit of your original post after I answered, then...

 

[Anonymous]