insider9
Well-known member
It was big and dynamic sounding but not near as refined as some of the other rooms.
According to the chap from the other Karma AV room the power in the ML JBL room was considerably worse measured on the Torus Devices FWIW
According to the chap from the other Karma AV room the power in the ML JBL room was considerably worse measured on the Torus Devices FWIW
insider9
Well-known member
insider9
Well-known member
No I don't mean concerts. People don't usually go to concerts for good sound quality. It's rare. And I can tell you on stage the sound is usually even worse. I mean playing music in rehearsals, jamming in small clubs/pubs, etc. no PA for most part.ellisdj said:
The things you don't usually hear in recordings like feedback from an amp before you start, sound of drumsticks left on the snare before a *** break, knowing the call is coming before the phone rings as it's picked up by an amp, shouting and mishearing key changes when bass player shouts E and you hear D. That's what I mean, that's real music to me.
Going into a studio and adding a few more layers of guitar which you'll never play live or doubling vocals when your band mates don't sing is only an effort of making up for the fact the recording will hardly ever give away the atmosphere of how it feels to be around real instruments, real music.
ellisdj said:
Plenty of live performances involve no PA setup at all.
It is simply that the whole recording/playback system has long since stopped trying to emulate the levels and dynamic range of 'real music' and have instead given us other things to indulge in, such as detail resolution and soundstageing, neither of which are that obvious in live music.
I just wouldn’t want speakers like those jbls at home. They look like pa speakers at a concert.
Also who the hell, in the uk at least, has room for them. Doubt there are many. In addition who really wants the bass of such speakers in a normal listening environment. It would be really tiring listening to such bass all the time, you probably wouldn’t hear the rest of the track at modest levels, because bass would dominate, and I’d have a headache after 30 minutes. Much better to get a good quality smaller floorstander or stand mounter, that’s nuanced and refined, gives you adequately decent bass, is detailed and dynamic. Job done. And it’s cheaper!
Also who the hell, in the uk at least, has room for them. Doubt there are many. In addition who really wants the bass of such speakers in a normal listening environment. It would be really tiring listening to such bass all the time, you probably wouldn’t hear the rest of the track at modest levels, because bass would dominate, and I’d have a headache after 30 minutes. Much better to get a good quality smaller floorstander or stand mounter, that’s nuanced and refined, gives you adequately decent bass, is detailed and dynamic. Job done. And it’s cheaper!
QuestForThe13thNote said:
You are commenting on something that you clearly have no experience of and know nothing about.
Regular hi-fi systems of the type you own (and relentlessly promote) do not come remotely close to reproducing the sound of real, live music as I explained a post or two ago.
Part (though not all) of this is down to the playback system and speakers of the type under discussion are one of the few ways that we can get closer to the live sound, that it sounds nothing like your hi-fi is, to me, a very positive thing.
No.lpv said:
Size counts for a lot in cars and in speakers for the ultimate performance.
The W125 had a 5.6 litre engine!
The best performance speakers have large bass drivers.
Low moving mass counts for a lot in ultimate performance too.
The W125 weighed 750 kgs!
Compression drivers have much lower moving mass than 6" mid-bass cones.
As I keep saying it's horses for courses. If anyone wants speakers for the equivalent of commuting in London, that's fine. However please don't equate vintage high end professional speakers with Crossley 10 HP cars as that would be totally wide of the mark and displays a lack of understanding of audio and automotive history.
I have enough experience to form an opinion as good as yours thank you, and my enthusiasm for good hi Fi, maybe perceived as promoting it, but it’s above all, because I get real enjoyment from faithfully re-produced sound.
I see no point on setting out to recreate the sound of real live music in so far of a concert etc, because you don’t need to recreate that level of bass at home because it’s impossible. So the spec might as well be to create good bass but not concert hall bass. Also it’s quite possible to achieve the detail and dynamics of music, and other important qualities such as these, with more modest sized speakers. All you are basically trying to achieve with this type of speaker is a big sound with lots of bass, a big soundstage etc. But I don’t want a concert hall soundstage and bass at home. One it’s impossible due to room size etc, I see too no point of all that bass as I say, and also how do you control that bass it if I put those into a smallish living room, without all types of damping and room correction, and with on average ever reducing sizes of uk living space.
I see no point on setting out to recreate the sound of real live music in so far of a concert etc, because you don’t need to recreate that level of bass at home because it’s impossible. So the spec might as well be to create good bass but not concert hall bass. Also it’s quite possible to achieve the detail and dynamics of music, and other important qualities such as these, with more modest sized speakers. All you are basically trying to achieve with this type of speaker is a big sound with lots of bass, a big soundstage etc. But I don’t want a concert hall soundstage and bass at home. One it’s impossible due to room size etc, I see too no point of all that bass as I say, and also how do you control that bass it if I put those into a smallish living room, without all types of damping and room correction, and with on average ever reducing sizes of uk living space.
On the car analogy thing, we can play a little game of fantasy car buying - in which we are all billionaires.
If you wanted to travel from A to B as quckly as possible on the German Autobahn, which car would you buy?
Feel free to boast about the specs of your fantasy car, including its' max speed.
If you wanted to travel from A to B as quckly as possible on the German Autobahn, which car would you buy?
Feel free to boast about the specs of your fantasy car, including its' max speed.
iQ Speakers said:
Using your modules would make much more sense. Clean power and domestically acceptable packaging, unlike the Crown amps that JBL pushes under Harman's umbrella. Also one can build a system with Nord modules and DIY M2s for bedroom bookshelf Sonus Faber money. You can buy just the TOTL drivers (and the special horn) JBL uses in the M2. I see a lot of DIY M2s builds going on DIY Audio.com and the Lansing Heritage forums.
ellisdj said:
Big, alive and dynamic is the appeal. It's the West Coast sound (JBL, Altec, Klipsch). For more refinement you go with the innefficient, more neutral, a bit flat East Coast sound (AR, Advent, KLH).
davedotco said:
IMO the dynamic range of some really good hi Fi systems with decently sized floorstanders, is up there with the dynamic range of real music, sometimes better. Certainly if it isn’t technically (if you want to argue that), it’s not something to ever raise issue or complain about, or be disgruntled about or yearn for.
It may be that if the systems aren’t that good, Davedotcos point is the case. I think a lot of views comes down to your experience of what hi Fi you own and it’s quality. I doubt gazzip would be saying he isn’t satisfied with the dr of his system compared to best sq at a concert, given the system he owns.
Compression drivers, ribbons, cones, electrostats etc. all do at least one thing best compared to eachother in some aspect. Effortless lifelike dynamics is what compression drivers and horns do best.
insider9
Well-known member
Oh so hifi is now more dynamic then real music... How does this magic work?QuestForThe13thNote said:
insider9
Well-known member
QuestForThe13thNote said:
So you record music and then what's playing through hifi will be more dynamic than what you recorded?
Was thinking of concert music as picking up on davedotcos points referencing concert music.
In a concert it might not be as dynamic as on your stereo due to the way you are positioned and the effects of matching of sound and all instruments and the balance, plus the distortion you get of such powerful speakers. Some guitars might be lost etc, so on the whole I’d say you probably get better quality sound and more dynamic too, at home versus a concert.
Obviously music recorded live will be more dynamic than the actual cd etc of the same sound, due to losses in the chain.
In a concert it might not be as dynamic as on your stereo due to the way you are positioned and the effects of matching of sound and all instruments and the balance, plus the distortion you get of such powerful speakers. Some guitars might be lost etc, so on the whole I’d say you probably get better quality sound and more dynamic too, at home versus a concert.
Obviously music recorded live will be more dynamic than the actual cd etc of the same sound, due to losses in the chain.
It’s the way hi Fi gets to a note, sound or vocal. So the speed of getting to a drum beat and coming back down again (you could call it dynamic speed of attack), the accurate representation of volume levels in doing this, and the way the sound is dynamically seperated, so a bass guitar note for instance does not extend more than is real (the undynamic boy racer car stereo where it’s all joined up is the opposite).
It’s also to do with achieving the high and low volume parts of a track that is real eg in classical music, where it can go quiet and then loud again, but also applies to a vocal etc. If you heard a vocal and the high and low volume parts were closer together in volume terms and unrealistic through the hi Fi, the vocal would have less dynamics than one which was the opposite.
This is one area that seperates good hi Fi from poor hi Fi.
It’s also to do with achieving the high and low volume parts of a track that is real eg in classical music, where it can go quiet and then loud again, but also applies to a vocal etc. If you heard a vocal and the high and low volume parts were closer together in volume terms and unrealistic through the hi Fi, the vocal would have less dynamics than one which was the opposite.
This is one area that seperates good hi Fi from poor hi Fi.
QuestForThe13thNote said:
What complete drivel!
I think Quest needs re-aquainting himself with the "first law of holes".
Please explain why you think it’s drivel, picking up on earlier points I made if you wish. I note you didn’t respond.
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