Al ears said:
that's absolutely fair enough as well. If ellisdj wants to spend his money then I ain't gonna stop him
that's absolutely fair enough as well. If ellisdj wants to spend his money then I ain't gonna stop him
BenLaw
Well-known member
BenLaw
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Thanks for the sensible suggestions - ordered the ion hair dryer and am hoping it will help with my hair loss therapy.
I have reposted the above to try and bring some sense back to the thread. The snake oil brigade do really get on my mits - why bother posting stick to threads you are more interested in, that you can bring positive messages to.
BenLaw
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
The guy has 99.8% all time positive feedback on audiogon, why are you being so dismissive?
http://app.audiogon.com/users/geoffkait/feedbacks
No matter how strong the scientific argument and consensus among scientists there will always be people who reject the evidence. It happens on so many scientific topics, from climate change and vaccination to nuclear power and renewable energy. You only have to look at some of the comment threads on online articles: where scientists might agree with one position, it seems the majority of comment will stridently beg to differ. Well-established science is taken by many as just one of a range of possible viewpoints, no matter how credible – or incredible – those other viewpoints may be.
Source: http://schoolofthinking.org/2014/04/what-science-communicators-can-learn-from-listening-to-people/
Summary of tests carried out by various organisations here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
This foo thing is harmless really when compared to some of the other irrational beliefs that some people have. It's interesting though why some folk are more susceptible than others.
Source: http://schoolofthinking.org/2014/04/what-science-communicators-can-learn-from-listening-to-people/
Summary of tests carried out by various organisations here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
This foo thing is harmless really when compared to some of the other irrational beliefs that some people have. It's interesting though why some folk are more susceptible than others.
Covenanter
Well-known member
BenLaw said:
Wonderful, quite made my day.
Chris
PS If the building I was in was getting that sort of seismic twisting I'd be concerned about much more than my hifi.
Covenanter
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Personally I just can't bear to see nonsense being promulgated. Others can speak for themselves.
Chris
PS I had to Google "hard knee house curve". Wonderful stuff.
Covenanter said:
No Nonsense here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
Hard knee house curve is based on solid facts - humans dont hear bass in a linear fashion, all say they want a flat freq reponse but the reality is the deeper the bass the more volume is needed for it be audible at the same volume. A flat freq response is not actually flat in how you hear it.
Therefore a curved bass setup actually works better - and followinng the advice you set it up to your ears
The hard knee house curve addresses the issue of bloated bass caused by a standard house curve - once you have your system setup like this I doubt you could ever go back as you could hear where the bass is severly lacking.
I Googled "hifi isolation products". The results were a mix of links to places selling the same and would presumably give a better indication of what is on the market.
OK, now I'm more calibrated to your requirements, I'd recommend you try these:ellisdj said:
Car tyre inner tubes under whatever boards are supporting your equipment, inflated to about the right pressure. You can buy them for £7. I've seen and heard this approach used with a £12,000 vinyl source.
Sometimes commonly available alternatives are at least as good as more expensive dedicated items.
TrevC
Well-known member
lindsayt said:OK, now I'm more calibrated to your requirements, I'd recommend you try these:ellisdj said:
Car tyre inner tubes under whatever boards are supporting your equipment, inflated to about the right pressure. You can buy them for £7. I've seen and heard this approach used with a £12,000 vinyl source.
Sometimes commonly available alternatives are at least as good as more expensive dedicated items.
The weirdest thing is he doesn't seem to have anything that needs to be acoustically isolated at all. :? .
People dont read before writing - I am guilty of this as well but I have covered this several times
Read Bad Vibes in Stereophile - all products need isolating from themselves and other products.
Here we go again with the counter argument.....
Read Bad Vibes in Stereophile - all products need isolating from themselves and other products.
Here we go again with the counter argument.....
TrevC
Well-known member
TrevC, I have my solid state amps plonked on the floor and my CD players plonked on whatever surface or stand is convenient for putting the disks in and out. It all sounds fine. But there's really no harm in the original poster trying a few isolation possibilities to see what difference they make in his system, especially if they're relatively inexpensive, or he can sell them on or return them for about the same price he bought them for.
Covenanter
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
I did and no they don't. It's also worth noting that the article was written in 1995, way before computers were being used as playback devices and mp3 players were available (ie no moving parts playback systems), so to try and apply it to modern tech is folly.
Plus the article dares to say talk about studios when it's obvious the writer is just a hifi nut and doesn't have a clue about what goes on in a studio. Does he not think that after all these years, those professionals who create the music that he so badly wants to listen to in "high fidelity" wouldn't have tried such things and come to their own conclusions. Quite frankly the whole article smacks of sanctamonious bullcrap of the highest order with somebody who is sooooo obsessed with tweaking that they've lost sight of the plot.
-edited for posting wrong bit in wrong thread! doh! -
Bloody snake oil brigade
Lindsay T - just because you put your kit on the floor doesnt make it right - thats the worst place for it to be just to point out, even on a concrete floor although I am guessing yuo dont have an exposed concerete floor
I have done controlled blind testing based on isolation and that proved to me there and then and several others that it is important and does make a difference. In fact I didnt know isolation was being changed so there was no bias at all.
Secondly I have tested this myself and heard it with my own ears that isolating certain products improves sound quality. In my room there is a lot of bass - I like it this way - and it sound best for it - its necessary to have a lot of bass to support a full range sound.
There is energy moving into all my compnents I dare say - some more than others. Now this definately harmfil of delicate imaging cues for one and I have heard it with ym own ears make a significant difference to the transparency of bass I get from my sub.
There is no snake oil here a piece of polystyrene under the power supply feeding my audio pc. It makes a difference simple as that.
I have looked at the many different products been linked too - some are very very expensive, overly expensive but not all are.
Thanks for the input
Lindsay T - just because you put your kit on the floor doesnt make it right - thats the worst place for it to be just to point out, even on a concrete floor although I am guessing yuo dont have an exposed concerete floor
I have done controlled blind testing based on isolation and that proved to me there and then and several others that it is important and does make a difference. In fact I didnt know isolation was being changed so there was no bias at all.
Secondly I have tested this myself and heard it with my own ears that isolating certain products improves sound quality. In my room there is a lot of bass - I like it this way - and it sound best for it - its necessary to have a lot of bass to support a full range sound.
There is energy moving into all my compnents I dare say - some more than others. Now this definately harmfil of delicate imaging cues for one and I have heard it with ym own ears make a significant difference to the transparency of bass I get from my sub.
There is no snake oil here a piece of polystyrene under the power supply feeding my audio pc. It makes a difference simple as that.
I have looked at the many different products been linked too - some are very very expensive, overly expensive but not all are.
Thanks for the input
Covenanter said:
And to you - you clearly have not looked this up - if you did you would realise that I am 100% right.
In fact you can test it yourself - play a 90hz test tone - then play a 30hz test tone - I would wager all I own that the 30 hz tone will sound a lot quiter to you than the 90hz. You might noit have 30hz in your room or it will probably be modal so maybe try 35hz
If you also look at how Anthem Processors and the new receivers setup the sound its in a similar way - thats because of actual official studies that have been done that prove that this sounds best. Technically it makes sense as well.
You can write it off thinking you know best - but at the same time your missing out!
ellisdj said:
Bloody foo brigade :wave:
ellisdj said:
and I've tried it and found it made no difference whatsoever. So where does that leave us?
What about the fact that the article you were harping on about was written pre solid state playback devices? What if I linked to an article from 1966 that said that we all needed to wear tin foil hats to get rid of the radiation which is affecting the sound. Does that hold any weight today?
This is where I think the main divide of opinion comes - from me and others, I often disagree with people on here.
The environment where I did the blind testing was done was completely controlled acoustic treated room - that is also there best I have heard a hifi sound from an imaging point of view. It was possible to clearly make out all members of a band within their space and there was silence inbetween them which gave them their space. This playback was not perfect I know now but it opened my eyes to what is possible for audio playvback and what surprisingly makes a difference - is actually not snake oil at all
I have heard lots of different systems since - nothing gets close to that what I heard that day - why because the environment these systems are in is not as good and are killing the sound even £££££££££££££ worth of kit - sounding garbage.
After hearing the system that I became hell bent on getting that sound at home (as close as I can) - and looked to improve the acoustics of my room. This makes more of a difference than anything else you can spend your money on. Simple as that.
So here is my point - I see picture after picture after picture of peoples system in hollow rooms, wood floor all looking pretty but I know for a fact that any system in that room will sound hindered by a huge % as much as 100% by the room
So the acoustic environment people do their testing is killing the testing - because the person is hearing the room in the first place and not the kit.
Hard fact but a true fact.
So they say cables, isolation etc are all snake oil becuase in their room they heard no difference - fair enough but they are not factoring in the high % of influence their hearing of the room to start with and how much is being lost.
So for them to say categorically these products make no difference is a false recommendation.
Instead they should say - I heard no difference in my room - and nut shun peoples work as a con
The environment where I did the blind testing was done was completely controlled acoustic treated room - that is also there best I have heard a hifi sound from an imaging point of view. It was possible to clearly make out all members of a band within their space and there was silence inbetween them which gave them their space. This playback was not perfect I know now but it opened my eyes to what is possible for audio playvback and what surprisingly makes a difference - is actually not snake oil at all
I have heard lots of different systems since - nothing gets close to that what I heard that day - why because the environment these systems are in is not as good and are killing the sound even £££££££££££££ worth of kit - sounding garbage.
After hearing the system that I became hell bent on getting that sound at home (as close as I can) - and looked to improve the acoustics of my room. This makes more of a difference than anything else you can spend your money on. Simple as that.
So here is my point - I see picture after picture after picture of peoples system in hollow rooms, wood floor all looking pretty but I know for a fact that any system in that room will sound hindered by a huge % as much as 100% by the room
So the acoustic environment people do their testing is killing the testing - because the person is hearing the room in the first place and not the kit.
Hard fact but a true fact.
So they say cables, isolation etc are all snake oil becuase in their room they heard no difference - fair enough but they are not factoring in the high % of influence their hearing of the room to start with and how much is being lost.
So for them to say categorically these products make no difference is a false recommendation.
Instead they should say - I heard no difference in my room - and nut shun peoples work as a con
Cheese you must try the Acoustic Revive RR-77, LessLoss Blackbody and Intelligent Box before casting any premature judgments!
And please don't mock Machina Dynamica because they are an award winning business. Just click the first link on this list and see for yourself.
Carry on.
And please don't mock Machina Dynamica because they are an award winning business. Just click the first link on this list and see for yourself.
Carry on.
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