Is it worth buying a 2nd hand TT from auction ?

[sthomas048]

Hello,

Yes I have sold my cd player so I can buy a TT. Ive been hankering for a TT for years and I have all this old vinyl begging to be played. I have a Musical Fidelity B200 amp which apparently has quite a good phone stage. I only have £200 to spend out of my cd player earnings however.

So my question is, is it worth buying a TT second hand off that auction site ? Can I buy anything decent for £200 ? What sort of things should I consider when buying second hand ? Im a total newbie with TTs so I dont know where to start !

I know Rega TTs are worth searching for. There are two old vintage TTs on that auction site right now - a Goldring Lenco GL78 and a Micro Seiki MR-222.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Stephen

 

[altruistic.lemon]

You'd be better off with Thorens or AR (Acoustic Research). There's a couple on there know I'd buy like a shot, were I still interested in turntables. Which, as I'm reminded, I'm not.

 

[sthomas048]

I have to be honest, Ive never heard of AR. Thanks for that will do a search for that now.

 

[Big Chris]

There's a certain Pro-ject RPM4 currently going for peanuts on there.:rofl:

 

[MajorFubar]

Buying s/h off auction sites is of course always a risk but it's unlikely you'll buy a dog unless the pictures show that it's obviously abused and knackered. Watch out for vague listings which say "not tested", "sold as seen": these could be genuine, but sometimes such excuses are used by unscrupulous sellers to get rid of junk without comebacks.

At the worst you might have to buy a new cartridge or stylus because one person's idea of "hardly used" can be another person's idea of "completely worn out". Same thing goes for belts on belt-drive models.

 

[sthomas048]

Ooh, so there is ! I missed that. Many thanks Big Chris for pointing it out.

 

[chebby]

Buy from people who...

...have owned the item since new.

...provide good quality photos of the item.

...are honest enough to point out any marks/defects (and show photos of them) so you can decide if they matter.

...have kept the box and packaging and instructions, receipts, servicing documents, and other bits (set-up jigs, protractors, transit screws/clamps etc.) where applicable.

...have been regularly using the turntable up until the sale (don't want decks that have sat in a box for 25 years unless they have been serviced before the sale).

...have excellent feedback as a seller.

 

[sthomas048]

Buying s/h off auction sites is of course always a risk but it's unlikely you'll buy a dog unless the pictures show that it's obviously abused and knackered. Watch out for vague listings which say "not tested", "sold as seen": these could be genuine, but sometimes such excuses are used by unscrupulous sellers to get rid of junk without comebacks.

At the worst you might have to buy a new cartridge or stylus because one person's idea of "hardly used" can be another person's idea of "completely worn out". Same thing goes for belts on belt-drive models.

These are the things I was concerned about. Ive noticed a few bargains for sale, then noticed the vague description ala sold as seen and avoided it. Its all new to me as although Ive been into hifi for a long while, I havent owned a proper turntable - ever.

 

[sthomas048]

Grateful thanks Chebby. These are very good points and I will ask all those questions now before committing to a bid. You could be a lifesaver as I dont want to be lumbered with a major restoration project !

Buy from people who...

...have owned the item since new.

...provide good quality photos of the item.

...are honest enough to point out any marks/defects (and show photos of them) so you can decide if they matter.

...have kept the box and packaging and instructions, receipts, servicing documents, and other bits (set-up jigs, protractors, transit screws/clamps etc.) where applicable.

...have been regularly using the turntable up until the sale (don't want decks that have sat in a box for 25 years unless they have been serviced before the sale).

...have excellent feedback as a seller.

 

[MajorFubar]

I havent owned a proper turntable - ever.

Great pleasures await you

 

[matthewpiano]

You will get loads of pleasure from a good turntable and you'll feel like you are re-discovering some of your music again.

One point I'd like to emphasise is that so few people know how to pack a turntable properly. Not that long ago I bought a Pioneer PL12D from a seller who simply taped the platter down using brown parcel tape without removing it from the deck. Of course when the turntable arrived the bearings were ruined, the deck was in pieces and it was un-salvageable. Turntables should ALWAYS be shipped with the platter and counterweight removed and packed safely. Chebby's advice about really checking a listing out is spot-on.

Not sure what part of the country you are in, but if you are anywhere in the Sout-East, there is an excellent shop in Hastings called Steve's Hi-Fi. He sells 2nd hand hi-fi including turntables. He won't ship t/tables but if you are close enough for a visit it would be worth your while I think. If you google the shop name you'll find it easily enough. I've bought stuff from him before and had no problems.

Also worth keeping an eye on Green Home Electronics and their associated site. Not much there at present, but sometimes he has the odd gem and from experience I can tell you he knows how to pack a turntable properly.

Makes to look for?

AR, Thorens, Dual, Systemdek, and Rega. The Lencos are capable of excellent results but the original arms are iffy and I wouldn't recommend one to a vinyl newbie. The cheaper Linn models like the Basik/Axis are nothing to shout about and, even if you could afford one, you have to be very careful with older LP12s. At the lower end of your budget Pioneer PL12D and Sansui SR-222 can be very good value.

 

[sthomas048]

What a great reply. Thanks. Ive finally realised all the qualities Ive ever looked for in a system equate to vinyl ! It took me 20 years to work that out !

What you say is exactly why Im so apprehensive about buying a TT 2nd hand online. Im hoepeless with technical stuff - Im a true cd player person who wants to just plug in and play. As I dont drive this limits my options, as always. I do have a Audio T locally who sells new TTs like the Rega P1 etc;

I will add a Sansui SR-222 to my list then as well as the Pioneer PL12D. What are my options with stylus upgrades with these ? Particularly the Sansui ?

 

[matthewpiano]

Rather than a stylus upgrade you would be looking at a new cartridge for something like an SR-222 or PL12D and I wouldn't go too mad. Something like an Audio Technica AT95E should really be sufficient. If you really wanted to push the boat out then a Shure M97xE could work very well.

If you really just want to 'plug in and play' don't discount the Rega RP1. The standard version with the Ortofon OMB10 cartridge will get you started nicely and you'll always have the option to buy the Performance Pack (which includes a Rega Bias 2 cartridge) for £85 later on. It might actually suit you down to the ground and should be a pretty fool-proof way of getting into vinyl.

From experience (and possibly quite controversially) I'd suggest avoiding the budget Pro-ject decks. They are OK but nowhere near as well engineered as the Rega and I'd say many used decks will also beat the Pro-jects. You really need to go up to Xpression III level before Pro-ject come into their own.

 

[sthomas048]

Ha, that is what I meant, a new cartridge !

Total Newbie. Yeah I am seriously considering the RP1 as I can buy it locally and they might be kind enough to support me in installing future upgrades. Thanks again for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Maybe I will pop in to my local Audio T and ask questions about the Rega then.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Stephen. Whilst the Lenco decks are built like tanks, the arm bearings for vertical motion tend to disintegrate and cause problems, they can also suffer from motor noise (hum) breakthrough as well. From a dealer viewpoint you cannot go wrong with a good condition Rega Planar 2 or 3. They are very simple designs and all spares and servicing requirements can still be catered for. The arms fitted to these decks would be R200 on early versions, an 'S' shaped arm with detachable headshell, or RB300 on later 1980's onward, a straight black arm with one piece cast tube/headshell and dial tracking weight adjustment. You should be able to find a Planar 2 for about £200 or less. A decent starter cartridge would be an Audio Technica AT-95E at about £35. Good luck.

 

[sthomas048]

Thanks Andrew. Having owned Rega kit previously, they are my preferred TT of choice. Due to my budget I have considered true vintage models like the Lenco, but it seems they arent for the newbie ! Almost all the Rega Planar TTs I see for sale are in great condition with plenty of images to support this, so clearly they were loved and should be in good condition. I have contacted a few people about a Planar 2 and await an answer. Lots of great valuable info from you Andrew, so thanks again.

 

[lindsayt]

The trouble with the Rega Planar 2 and 3 is that they sound noticeably less dynamic than a Linn LP12.

For £200 you can buy a record player that sounds better than an LP12. So why buy one that sounds worse?

To say that Lenco's are not for newbies - depends what type of newbie we're talking about. If you want good sound quality for the money together with the ability to modify it into one of the worlds best sounding record players then the Lenco is a great choice. You can either replace the Lenco arm or buy some bearing blocks for about £15 if you want to keep the old arm to keep costs down.

Sansui SR-222? Right manufacturer. Wrong model. Look out for one of their top of the range direct drives - such as the Sansui SR929 - instead of one of their bottom of the range belt drives.

Look out for other good direct drive 1970's to 1980's turntables such as the Pioneer PL71.

There's a lot of joy in discovering some classic that's under the radar that offers great sound quality for the money. Every Japanese manufacturer had a statement turntable in the 1970's. Some of these crop up for amazingly affordable prices because they were never hyped in the UK when new, and have not been hyped on some hi-fi forum in the 21st Century.

Technics 1200's / 1210's are also good - especially of you swap the standard arm for something better. May stretch the £200 budget if you do swap arms.

I bought a record player off eBay that was advertised as "not working". Hadn't been used for 10 years. Didn't even have the arm fitted. No big deal. A new idler wheel, some oil, fitted the arm and a cart and off she went. Total of about 2 hours work - and most of that was spent looking at the owner's manual. Turntables are relatively simple devices. They're no more complicated than bicycles. Some of the biggest eBay bargains are items that need some basic repairs to get them fully working again. Or items that are cosmetically scruffy but in full working order.

 

[chebby]

There's a lot of joy in discovering some classic that's under the radar that offers great sound quality for the money. Every Japanese manufacturer had a statement turntable in the 1970's. Some of these crop up for amazingly affordable prices because they were never hyped in the UK...

That's because they weren't a blessed Linn.

Outside of the realm of the FBA/BFA and BADA (and 80 percent of the hifi magazine journos in the 1980s) there were plenty of good 'real-world' turntables getting sold that didn't require annual attendance at a 'Klinik' to get them 're-tuned' and didn't require a signed oath of fealty to King Ivor of Castlemilk to qualify for ownership!

 

[matthewpiano]

Hmmm... You obviously don't like Rega 'tables!

I've owned a Technics SL1210 Mk2 which I bought new and I never thought it was any better than OK to be honest. Beautifully built and faultlessly reliable but I wouldn't have another.

To be honest I've generally preferred the sound of belt driven decks to direct drive and idlers. I've owned a Lenco, one which had been built into a very nice plinth by someone who really knew what they were doing and, even re-furbished, the arm was a piece of garbage. Adapting the deck to work with a better arm isn't a particularly straight forward process either although there is plenty of info about on the internet.

As for the SR-222 and the PL-12D I only mentioned them as decent options at the lower end of the price range. They were perfectly good decks and are very straight forward although, as I've said, I think a new Rega RP1 would be a better buy in every sense.

As far as older turntables go, I think the classic Thorens models are about the best and have loads of potential although there are one or two higher-model Japanese decks by Kenwood/Trio, Sansui, Pioneer and Denon that are worthy of consideration too.

Ultimately, though, the new Rega decks are very competitively priced and well thought-out and engineered and I think their ultimate performance ceiling is rather higher than your post suggests.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Thing is, Chebby (and bear in mind it's 15 years since I heard one and it was in the southern hemisphere, therefore probably not relevant), Linn turntables really do sound good. They upped the ante at what was then a reasonable price, compared to the real high end decks still surviving. Yes, you can spend a fortune getting them tuned, tweaked etc., but they're a genuine quality item.

In many ways it's a pity about the bullsh*t that surrounds them.

 

[sthomas048]

Right. I need a quick reply to this one - hopefully !

Ive just got home from work and Ive had a reply from one of the fellas selling a Rega Planar 2. He says that this TT doesnt come with transit screws and that the glass platter is removed and placed in cardboard under the deck in its original box, the stylus has a protective cap over it and the tone arm a clip.

Is this okay ? A quick question to anyone who knows their Rega TTs !

 

[chebby]

Hmmm... You obviously don't like Rega 'tables!

What me?

I've had my share of them (four in almost 30 years and all bought new) and always found them excellent (if sited and supported properly).

On another thread I have expressed an interest in getting a 'classic' Thorens TD-160/166, but that is - frankly - partly aesthetic and partly a bit of nostalgia for something I aspired to as a young hifi consumer but couldn't easily afford at the time.*

(With a brand new Thorens TD 160HD costing £1700 or more sans cartridge, a it's still an aspiration )

*I used to dream of having a Quad 33/303/FM3/Rogers JR149/Thorens/SME system when a teenager. (Quite a fogey'ish system now but pretty stylish in the late 1970s.)

 

[matthewpiano]

Chebby, I didn't mean you. I was talking to lindsayt. After all this time I know you rate Rega.

 

[chebby]

Chebby, I didn't mean you. I was talking to lindsayt. After all this time I know you rate Rega.

Oops.

 

[chebby]

Right. I need a quick reply to this one - hopefully !

Ive just got home from work and Ive had a reply from one of the fellas selling a Rega Planar 2. He says that this TT doesnt come with transit screws and that the glass platter is removed and placed in cardboard under the deck in its original box, the stylus has a protective cap over it and the tone arm a clip.

Is this okay ? A quick question to anyone who knows their Rega TTs !

He needs to cut out a rectangle of thick card (with a V or wedge shape cut into it) to slide under the sub-platter. It seperates the bottom of the spindle from the ball bearing in transit.

He also needs to remove the counterweight and drive belt and pack them well.

The tonearm clip is not enough. Get him to use one of those wire and plastic rubbish bag 'ties' to secure the arm too.