Is it all Hype ?

[Andrewjvt]

I would like less Irony, off topic and jokes and better built factual standpoints. Especially from the "I hear incredible differences" party.

As far to busy typing up positive user reviews for what hifi 5 star product best buys

 

[Andrewjvt]

I would like less Irony, off topic and jokes and better built factual standpoints. Especially from the "I hear incredible differences" party.

As far to busy typing up positive user reviews for what hifi 5 star product best buys

 

[keeper of the quays]

I think off topic is interesting..this banter bout wine is cool...more jokes please..re factual standpoints? It seems we are all duped? All amps the same..cheap cables as good as exspensive ones! So what do we have left? My upgrade sounds brilliant! Cool..more jokes please...that joke bout the guy who went to doctor bout his wife being dead? Was very funny!

 

[Vladimir]

If I invested in a pricey and gorgeous looking Scandinavian made amplifier, and read the facts showing that sound quality has been perfected in amplification beyond human hearing abilities for decades, I would feel good having the best sound money can buy + quality build + looks + a story + a brand. Amplification depends on application to extract the best possible sound quality, not boutique parts. Application, application, application.

So, when someone with ten times more expensive amp tries to tell me how much higher sound quality he enjoys through his speakers based on the price tag + glory reviews + his hearing, I can wholeheartedly and calmly shove it up his a$$ together with the brochures.

This knowledge serves to empower you, my fellow non-yacht-club-members. But if you decided to go elitist at your modest budgets, then enjoy the other end of the shoving.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ive been ripped off as paying so much just for the looks when in all honesty it never looked that good anyway and the sound is so bad and distorted not to mentioned flavoured with the inaccurate house sound.

Im dumping it all for a denon dm40 so i can have realistic sound production and thanks for saving me 3grand on a set of atcs. Ill just get mission sx1

Cant believe ive been so stupid. Now i can have real accurate sound for just over £200.

One day if i win the lottery ill treat myself to a real good looking shitty sounding hi end piece of kit but i wont play it as ill hurt my ears. It will just be as an ornament. The denon shall be my reference kit.

I shall sit listening to it with a bottle of £3.99 red.

I got a dm40 for my living room and cannot for the life of me understand the rave reviews. It sounds exactly the same as every other mini/midi system I have heard, which is pretty pants.

Your dev 800 and rest of your high end kit (that 99% of us woupd die for)is just so bad sounding you cant appreciate the accurate sound of the denon - only joking and yes it is my time if month i think

 

[Gazzip]

The problem with this hobby is expectation. Any system that can produce music from a given media is already 95% of the way to perfection. Night and day differences ain't gonna happen when comparing kit that is that close to the goal. Sometimes it is as if people expect the fecking song to change between one piece of kit and another. The differences are subtle not game changing.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The problem with this hobby is expectation. Any system that can produce music from a given media is already 95% of the way to perfection. Night and day differences ain't gonna happen when comparing kit that is that close to the goal. Sometimes it is as if people expect the fecking song to change between one piece of kit and another. The differences are subtle not game changing.

Plus 1
But thise small differences feel large when missing though.

Then when you bring loud volume and demanding music etc into it the differences become larger as no one on earth listens to music with a fluke

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Ive been ripped off as paying so much just for the looks when in all honesty it never looked that good anyway and the sound is so bad and distorted not to mentioned flavoured with the inaccurate house sound.

Im dumping it all for a denon dm40 so i can have realistic sound production and thanks for saving me 3grand on a set of atcs. Ill just get mission sx1

Cant believe ive been so stupid. Now i can have real accurate sound for just over £200.

One day if i win the lottery ill treat myself to a real good looking shitty sounding hi end piece of kit but i wont play it as ill hurt my ears. It will just be as an ornament. The denon shall be my reference kit.

I shall sit listening to it with a bottle of £3.99 red.

I got a dm40 for my living room and cannot for the life of me understand the rave reviews. It sounds exactly the same as every other mini/midi system I have heard, which is pretty pants.

Your dev 800 and rest of your high end kit (that 99% of us woupd die for)is just so bad sounding you cant appreciate the accurate sound of the denon - only joking and yes it is my time if month i think

you got a very good amp the hegel what makes it stand out from lets say a £300 amp ? i belive you get what you pay for so you would understand why spending over £1000 is wouth it but i also think its a wast of money if you brought budget speaker and paired them with the hegel so what i am saying is that speakers are a big part in the sound that you want in the first place so your got to spend the same kind of money on speakers too to hear that diffreance both amp and speakers matter very much in getting good sound

 

[Vladimir]

You are completely missing the point and misinterpreting posts.

I'm sure Gazzip gets it. It's not like we are discussing anything new here.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I agree...with better kit the changes may be subtle but once heard? Its difficult to go back..almost changes the theme? Before different parts of the music came forward but now? Seems more holistic? Everything more even handed! Sorry im not explaining very well..

 

[Vladimir]

Smaller the difference, more expensive they get. Sort of reminds of homeopathy. Higher dilution = higher price.

No, not Formula 1 cars. They are transducers and affected by gravity, just like speakers and turntables. Electronics are not because electrons are effectively massless. Hearing electrons and molecules are homeopathy teritory.

 

[Andrewjvt]

You are completely missing the point and misinterpreting posts.?

I'm sure Gazzip gets it. It's not like we are discussing anything new here. 

Have i lost the plot?
Its my time of the month.
But i read these while working a long 70 hour week night shift being my last night so forgive me please

However i feel some are just 'thinking it to be saying it'

 

[Vladimir]

NHS supplier sells 'homeopathic owl' that promises to help treat insomnia. Get it? Insomnia - Owl. Silver cable - bright sound. *lol*

And the best one! *yahoo*

Homeopathic Cure for Drowning I understand that to produce a homeopathic remedy requires several steps:

1) Get some of the stuff that causes the illness
2) Dilute it 10:1 with water.
3) Succuss (shake) it .
4) Repeat #2
5) Repeat #3
6) Continue repeating 2 & 3 until you end up with what is well shaken water. Maybe 10 times.

So you find someone who just drowned. The offending agent will usually be whatever water they drowned in. There should be plenty nearby. Get maybe a cup or bottle full. Now you must dilute it with -- you guessed it -- water. Once more you will find plenty readily at hand. Now dilute that water with more water and shake it thoroughly. Take a small amount of the resulting liquid and dilute it with more water, again shaking (sorry, succussing) it vigorously. Repeat this process 10(?) times before administering a sufficient amount to the victim. Here's the rub: If the victim is not conscious, you should not try to get them to swallow the water or even place any water in his mouth. If the victim is conscious, he may not need this treatment, but if he is thirsty maybe you could let him have a few small sips.

WTF is going on in the UK???? *ROFL*

 

[Andrewjvt]

NHS supplier sells 'homeopathic owl' that promises to help treat insomnia. Get it? Insomnia - Owl. Silver cable - bright sound. *lol*

And the best one! *yahoo*

Homeopathic Cure for Drowning

?

I understand that to produce a homeopathic remedy requires several steps:

1) Get some of the stuff that causes the illness2) Dilute it 10:1 with water.3) Succuss (shake) it .4) Repeat #25) Repeat #36) Continue repeating 2 & 3 until you end up with what is well shaken water. Maybe 10 times.

So you find someone who just drowned. The offending agent will usually be whatever water they drowned in. There should be plenty nearby. Get maybe a cup or bottle full. Now you must dilute it with -- you guessed it -- water. Once more you will find plenty readily at hand. Now dilute that water with more water and shake it thoroughly. Take a small amount of the resulting liquid and dilute it with more water, again shaking (sorry, succussing) it vigorously. Repeat this process 10(?) times before administering a sufficient amount to the victim. Here's the rub: If the victim is not conscious, you should not try to get them to swallow the water or even place any water in his mouth. If the victim is conscious, he may not need this treatment, but if he is thirsty maybe you could let him have a few small sips.

WTF is going on in the UK???? *ROFL*

Yes i need that but maybe some of your wine the good stuff

 

[Vladimir]

Yes i need that but maybe some of your wine the good stuff

I'll dilute it 1.000.000 : 1 in water and sell you 1ml for £1500. It will taste better, trust me.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Yes i need that but maybe some of your wine the good stuff

I'll dilute it 1.000.000 : 1 in water and sell you 1ml for £1500. It will taste better, trust me.

The taste of distorted wine.

 

[Vladimir]

The taste of distorted wine.

In case you've missed this wise audiophile knowledge: 30W in Class A costing £3000 sound better than 300W in Class D costing £300.

Just like the principles of homeopathy ("Like cures like", dilution increases potency - Samuel Hahnemann), less watts are better watts. More distortion is less distortion. Less fidelity is more fidelity. Furnace hot Class A sounds warm and organic compared to cold running harsh, digital and artificial sounding Class D. Class A watts sound more powerfull than Class D watts. 50 Linn watts are better than 500 Onkyo watts. 80 Naim watts are better than 8000 Crown watts. 3 SET valve watts are better than 150W SEPP SS watts. Etc. etc. etc.

This is the contraversy this thread examines. Accuracy vs Immersion, Application vs Synergy, Objective vs Subjective, Rationality vs Imagination, Anecdotal vs Measured Evidence, How To Peel Eggs Properly On Tuesdays.

 

[Ajani]

I agree...with better kit the changes may be subtle but once heard? Its difficult to go back..almost changes the theme? Before different parts of the music came forward but now? Seems more holistic? Everything more even handed! Sorry im not explaining very well..

I don't have a problem with the idea that there may be very subtle differences, and I've argued before that audiophiles would be mocked far less if they stopped always making these night and day transformation claims (especially when talking about differencs that can't be measured and hence might not even exist).

However, there are challenges with the issue of subtle differences:

For example, how do you identify subtle differences, if you don't even rule out clear differences like volume, frequency response and distortion? A lot of HiFi products measure relatively poorly to begin with, so how do you determine whether that "extra air around instruments" or "fullness in the midrange" isn't just harmonic distortion?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I agree...with better kit the changes may be subtle but once heard? Its difficult to go back..almost changes the theme? Before different parts of the music came forward but now? Seems more holistic? Everything more even handed! Sorry im not explaining very well..

I don't have a problem with the idea that there may be very subtle differences, and I've argued before that audiophiles would be mocked far less if they stopped always making these night and day transformation claims (especially when talking about differencs that can't be measured and hence might not even exist).

However, there are challenges with the issue of subtle differences:

For example, how do you identify subtle differences, if you don't even rule out clear differences like volume, frequency response and distortion? A lot of HiFi products measure relatively poorly to begin with, so how do you determine whether that "extra air around instruments" or "fullness in the midrange" isn't just harmonic distortion?

i can hear the differences that's all i can do i have no way of testing what i have to prove it but to me there are differences between the amps i have owned from the marantz pm6005- pm8005 upgrading to what i have now just better bass control but going from the pm6005 to the pm8005 was a big difference in bass control and even more now with abe 2up in bass control as well as the extra air around instruments maybe this has more to do with the power supply with amps why we hear differences in sound

 

[Gazzip]

You are completely missing the point and misinterpreting posts.

I'm sure Gazzip gets it. It's not like we are discussing anything new here.

A properly engineered and specified amplifier within its given topology class (A, B, A/B etc.) will sound the same as another, I get that. That is my 95% benchmark. I guess you could call it true hifi. Nothing added and nothing taken away, just a true, amplified representation of the source signal. If that is what you are looking for then Vladimir is completely right, you have found your 100% and you can stop your amplifier search right there at the £200 Behringer A500 mark.

For me achieving that extra 5% above the true hifi experience is not about increased accuracy and transparency. This is not possible because absolute accuracy has already been achieved at 95%. I am much more interested in finding a sound that I really, really like and I am prepared to pay a lot of money to do that. That final 5% for me is all about how a manufacturer manages the signal degradation back down from "perfect" in a way which makes the music actually seem more "real" to a given individual than the true original did. More enjoyable. Achieving this at all SPL's and across multiple musical genres without ever revealing itself as a deception, a veil over the true signal, is where the extra cost of development is involved.

Paying more doesn't give greater insight, greater clarity or more of a Hifi experience, but it can bring you closer to the music in different ways.

 

[CnoEvil]

Paying more doesn't give greater insight, greater clarity or more of a Hifi experience, but it can bring you closer to the music in different ways.

I have found that paying more "can" give you exactly that, which for me, is what makes it more enjoyable.

I know it may be subjective, but some of the expensive amps that I've heard, gave me much more than a 5% improvement (in the areas mentioned above).

 

[Gazzip]

Paying more doesn't give greater insight, greater clarity or more of a Hifi experience, but it can bring you closer to the music in different ways.

I have found that paying more "can" give you exactly that, which for me, is what makes it more enjoyable.

I know it may be subjective, but some of the expensive amps that I've heard, gave me much more than a 5% improvement (in the areas mentioned above).

Yes but it is at the expense of something elsewhere in the signal that isn't as important to your listening experience. The best in the business at doing this in my opinion are Audio Research. Their now superseded Ref5SE pre-amp "seemed" to improve all of the areas mentioned, but what it actually does is to carefully hold back other areas in the musical composition to give that impression. The ability to deceive and make one believe that more of the recording is on display, and to present that deception in a musical and enjoyable way, for me is the marque of a truly great Hifi component.

Truthfully amplifing the original signal is I fear embarrassing simple.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes but it is at the expense of something elsewhere in the signal that isn't as important to your listening experience. The best in the business at doing this in my opinion are Audio Research. Their now superseded Ref5SE pre-amp "seemed" to improve all of the areas mentioned, but what it actually does is to carefully hold back other areas in the musical composition to give that impression. The ability to deceive and make one believe that more of the recording is on display, and to present that deception in a musical and enjoyable way, for me is the marque of a truly great Hifi component.

Truthfully amplifing the original signal is I fear embarrassing simple.

I have found, that removing "crossover distortion" can give a purity of signal that is hard to look past, in a SS amp......though there is a big penalty in terms of heat, power wastage and ultimate Watts.

 

[manicm]

Yet Justin Hayward of The Moody Blues got his sense of taste back through Homeopathy/Alternative healing after years of conventional medicine /operation. Explain that.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yet Justin Hayward of The Moody Blues got his sense of taste back through Homeopathy/Alternative healing after years of conventional medicine /operation. Explain that.

Placebo? *diablo*