Is it all Hype ?

[Al ears]

Without a doubt, there would be an easily discernible difference between a Stradivarius and a much cheaper violin. The same with other acoustic instruments too. Classical guitars etc. Different types of wood, the bracing, When these instruments are heard live - easy to hear a difference. And crucially a talented player.

tonky

And yet again a thread gets effectively sidetracked. Read the origial post folks before adding your self-centred rubbish.

Say it as it is why don't you - keeper of the thread tracker - somebody used cheaper vs expensive violins as an analogy regarding amplifiers. I didn't think it was a good analogy for the reasons I gave. Why so serious - it's a thread - varied opinions - different analogies. Problem?

tonky

It's just common courtesy really, of you want to discuss cables rather than amplifiers then start a new post rather than hijack someone else's thread.

Simpless...

Just a good job this isn't the Naim forum.

 

[tonky]

Everything I have posted on this thread has been in response to something that had already been posted on this thread - so I didn't feel I was hijacking - I was responding on thread. Try not to worry so much - plenty of self-centred rubbish around - I wouldn't be so discourteous to point it out. Everyone and anyone can (and does ) have an opinion. You're allowed - I'm allowed.

tonky

 

[keeper of the quays]

I think most forums sometimes get a little heated? Its a passion thing..we all love music..and i think we all think we may have the best system? Be it pricey or budget! Lol...but im sure if we met in the street, pub..etc..we would all get on very well...you might say i got really nice hifi and i use inexpsenive cables..i might say 'yeah right' then come round to yours have a listen? Then realise your right! Grrr...drink your whisky then go home and wonder why i have a interconnect that cost morethan my speakers between power and pre? Great hobby..sometimes?

 

[Vladimir]

IIRC there was a reward of $10,000 for telling apart amps in a DBT?

If we ignore the fact that relatively speaking a $10,000 wager is a very small amount if the better is so absolutely sure we would fail, I assume it has an asterisk after it with some pretty hefty terms and conditions. Otherwise I'm going out to find the cheapest naffest amp I can find, then proving beyond all doubt it sounds different to my modded C2+PSX, and claiming my $10k

I found it.

Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge

Carver Challenge. Bob Carver made a decent well performing SS amp not to be linear, tonally incorect and with weak damping factor in order to simulate an expensive Conrad-Johnson valve amp. And in the Richard Clark challenge they just used an EQ.

Next, here is the famed Peter Walker 1978 interview about how Quad amps are made.

TAA: How do you rate the merits of listening tests to instrument tests?

PW: We designed our valve (tube) amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, "Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it." However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they are for specific things. We listen to the differential distortion - does a certain thing matter? You've got to have a listening test to sort out whether it matters. You've got to do tests to sort out whether rumble is likely to overload pickup inputs, or whether very high frequency stuff coming out of the pickup due to record scratch is going to disturb the control unit. But we aren't sitting down listening to Beethoven's Fifth and saying, "That amplifier sounds better, let's change a resistor or two. Oh yes, that's now better still." We never sit down and listen to a music record through an amplifier in the design stage. We listen to funny noises, funny distortions, and see whether these things are going to matter, to get a subjective assessment. But we don't actually listen to program material at all.

And for the cherry on top, Bob Lee (QSC) famously quoted: "If your amp sounds different then either it's broken or an audiophile amp."

*drinks*

 

[Pedro2]

£4 bottle of red, £7 bottle, £15 bottle, £200 bottle.

How many would tell the difference in blind test?

Just a thought *wacko*

 

[DIB]

£4 bottle of red, £7 bottle, £15 bottle, £200 bottle.

How many would tell the difference in blind test?

Just a thought *wacko*

Well after polishing off the 4th bottle I'd probably not be able to tell you anything let alone any differences.

.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I read the article with interest...so if amplifiers are so similar? Then what is it? What are we hearing..is it pre amp? Source? Speakers? How we are feeliing that day? Perhaps we are simply buffoons..thinking new kit makes a difference! I put my dynaudio speakers on top of my Ae speakers..they sounded not so good? Sounded ok with my roksan stuff but with the quad and musical fidelity? The AEs made them sound quite flat! Have i imagined this..is the roksan just as good as the quad/mf....seems if it were the same power output it would be? Convinced not i am...sorry

 

[Ajani]

IIRC there was a reward of $10,000 for telling apart amps in a DBT?

If we ignore the fact that relatively speaking a $10,000 wager is a very small amount if the better is so absolutely sure we would fail, I assume it has an asterisk after it with some pretty hefty terms and conditions. Otherwise I'm going out to find the cheapest naffest amp I can find, then proving beyond all doubt it sounds different to my modded C2+PSX, and claiming my $10k

I found it.

Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge

Carver Challenge. Bob Carver made a decent well performing SS amp not to be linear, tonally incorect and with weak damping factor in order to simulate an expensive Conrad-Johnson valve amp. And in the Richard Clark challenge they just used an EQ.

Next, here is the famed Peter Walker 1978 interview about how Quad amps are made.

TAA: How do you rate the merits of listening tests to instrument tests?

PW: We designed our valve (tube) amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, "Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it." However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they are for specific things. We listen to the differential distortion - does a certain thing matter? You've got to have a listening test to sort out whether it matters. You've got to do tests to sort out whether rumble is likely to overload pickup inputs, or whether very high frequency stuff coming out of the pickup due to record scratch is going to disturb the control unit. But we aren't sitting down listening to Beethoven's Fifth and saying, "That amplifier sounds better, let's change a resistor or two. Oh yes, that's now better still." We never sit down and listen to a music record through an amplifier in the design stage. We listen to funny noises, funny distortions, and see whether these things are going to matter, to get a subjective assessment. But we don't actually listen to program material at all.

And for the cherry on top, Bob Lee (QSC) famously quoted: "If your amp sounds different then either it's broken or an audiophile amp."

*drinks*

Good post. Up to now no one is able to show that amp differences can't be explained by easily measurable items such as volume, frequency response and distortion. So of course amps will sound different, but the real question should be whether your expensive amp sounds "better" because of simple parlour tricks (colouring the sound by messing with frequency response, gain and distortion).

There's nothing wrong with buying something because you like how it sounds, but so many audiophiles are convinced (despite all evidence to the contrary) that these expensive products are somehow more accurate or realistic.

 

[Ajani]

I read the article with interest...so if amplifiers are so similar? Then what is it? What are we hearing..is it pre amp? Source? Speakers? How we are feeliing that day? Perhaps we are simply buffoons..thinking new kit makes a difference! I put my dynaudio speakers on top of my Ae speakers..they sounded not so good? Sounded ok with my roksan stuff but with the quad and musical fidelity? The AEs made them sound quite flat! Have i imagined this..is the roksan just as good as the quad/mf....seems if it were the same power output it would be? Convinced not i am...sorry

Your amps should sound different. The science says there will be differences.

 

[Gazzip]

I read the article with interest...so if amplifiers are so similar? Then what is it? What are we hearing..is it pre amp? Source? Speakers? How we are feeliing that day? Perhaps we are simply buffoons..thinking new kit makes a difference! I put my dynaudio speakers on top of my Ae speakers..they sounded not so good? Sounded ok with my roksan stuff but with the quad and musical fidelity? The AEs made them sound quite flat! Have i imagined this..is the roksan just as good as the quad/mf....seems if it were the same power output it would be? Convinced not i am...sorry

You are hearing an imperfect signal which sounds warmer, richer, colder, drier, basically whatever the manufacturer wants to add or take away from the true signal in order to impart their manufacturer's flavour on to the sound. Nothing wrong with this. Some people like natural leather shoes and some like them coloured. Both are still shoes.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

looking a long all the post's that people have done on this topic and looking at what amp's your all useing there are not meany people useing a £100 budget amp so what made you all spend the big money on £1000 or more on amps in the first place then ? i will guess you wanted a better sound i did *wink*

 

[Gazzip]

looking a long all the post's that people have done on this topic and looking at what amp's your all useing there are not meany people useing a £100 budget amp so what made you all spend the big money on £1000 or more on amps in the first place then ? i will guess you wanted a better sound i did *wink*

I was actually downgrading but I wanted a sound I really like. My better may not be yours.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

looking a long all the post's that people have done on this topic and looking at what amp's your all useing there are not meany people useing a £100 budget amp so what made you all spend the big money on £1000 or more on amps in the first place then ? i will guess you wanted a better sound i did *wink*

I was actually downgrading but I wanted a sound I really like. My better may not be yours.

i agree *yes3*

 

[Ajani]

looking a long all the post's that people have done on this topic and looking at what amp's your all useing there are not meany people useing a £100 budget amp so what made you all spend the big money on £1000 or more on amps in the first place then ? i will guess you wanted a better sound i did *wink*

£100 was a random figure used by the OP. I don't know of any new amps that cheap that measure perfectly (or close enough). Spend a little more and you can find several pro amps that measure very well. After that it's all about personal preference.

There's nothing wrong with buying a 10K amp, if you like the sound/looks of it. Just don't be fooled into thinking that you're paying for a more realistic/accurate sound than a cheaper amp.

 

[Ajani]

Based on his criteria it's unlikely I'd pass the test. What he's saying is if two amps are measurably similar to the point where the different in their measurments are below audible materiality, people can't tell them apart when their volumes are matched and neither is clipping. It's difficult to dispute that.

My C2+PSX sounds completely different to the PM66KI I sold, but probably the differences could be explained with the right measurements. So I wouldn't be allowed to compare them in his test even though it's likely I could identify which was which 100% of the time. Also bang goes my idea of nipping down the 2nd hand shop and picking up a cheap Matsui or something and using it win my $10k; it too would be null and void for the same reason.

We can all rig-up tests like that and claim they prove amplifiers don't sound different when obviously they do. All he's proving is they sound different for logical measurable reasons and when you minimize the variables they're going to sound similar. Well, no sh*t, Sherlock.

Exactly. That's the point. HiFi is science, not Witchcraft!

Where the issue gets more complex is that you can find amps that measure very well for relatively cheap, whereas many expensive HiFi amps measure poorly.

 

[MajorFubar]

Based on his criteria it's unlikely I'd pass the test. What he's saying is if two amps are measurably similar to the point where the differences in their measurements are below audible materiality, people can't tell them apart when their volumes are matched and neither amp is clipping. It's difficult to dispute that.

My C2+PSX sounds completely different to the PM66KI I sold, but probably the differences could be explained with the right measurements. So I wouldn't be allowed to compare them in his test even though it's likely I could identify which was which 100% of the time. Also bang goes my idea of nipping down the 2nd hand shop and picking up a cheap Matsui or something and using it to win my $10k; it too would be null and void for the same reason.

We can all rig-up tests like that and claim they prove amplifiers don't sound different when obviously they do. All he's proving is they sound different for logical measurable reasons and when you minimize the variables they're going to sound similar. Well, no sh*t, Sherlock.

 

[Vladimir]

Behringer A500 ($200) + Behringer UCA202 ($25) + Monoprice cables ($25)

Job done.

 

[Gazzip]

Behringer A500 ($200) + Behringer UCA202 ($25) + Monoprice cables ($25)

Job done.

Ah, but Vlad, I owned the A500 for a while you may remember. Sound quality yes. Build quality no, no, no!

Also operationally very much hit and miss with v. Poor quality level controls.

 

[Vladimir]

Build quality of the proposed system is abominal, no doubt. So is the lack of features, aesthetics, brand heritage, pride of ownership etc. But the issue of sound quality for amplification, digital audio and cables is solved already at $250.

 

[Gazzip]

Build quality of the proposed system is abominal, no doubt. So is the lack of features, aesthetics, brand heritage, pride of ownership etc. But the issue of sound quality for amplification, digital audio and cables is solved already at $250.

For me the hobby is about all of those things.

 

[Vladimir]

I want all the stuff!

 

[MajorFubar]

Build quality of the proposed system is abominal, no doubt. So is the lack of features, aesthetics, brand heritage, pride of ownership etc. But the issue of sound quality for amplification, digital audio and cables is solved already at $250.

For me the hobby is about all of those things.

Off topic slightly but that poses a very interesting question regarding hifi-scruples for want of a better term. Would you pay (e.g. double the price for something that had better build, looked nicer, had 'brand heritage', features you ddn't need, but sounded exactly the same. You said for you the hobby is all about those things. You're not wrong to say that, it's your opinion, your money, and you make the call. But for me, I'd take the crap-built cheaper one which sounded just the same.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Build quality of the proposed system is abominal, no doubt. So is the lack of features, aesthetics, brand heritage, pride of ownership etc. But the issue of sound quality for amplification, digital audio and cables is solved already at $250.

For me the hobby is about all of those things.

Off topic slightly but that poses a very interesting question regarding hifi-scruples for want of a better term. Would you pay (e.g. double the price for something that had better build, looked nicer, had 'brand heritage', features you ddn't need, but sounded exactly the same. You said for you the hobby is all about those things. You're not wrong to say that, it's your opinion, your money, and you make the call. But for me, I'd take the crap-built cheaper one which sounded just the same.

for me sound quality , bulid quality , features , brand heritage , and how it looks in that order *good*

 

[Gazzip]

To MajorFubar - Not intentionally. It is a balance of all those things for me. Do you walk around in a boiler suit and trainers all day? That is the cheapest way to clothe yourself but I bet you don't. Why?

 

[Covenanter]

£4 bottle of red, £7 bottle, £15 bottle, £200 bottle.

How many would tell the difference in blind test?

Just a thought *wacko*

I'm afraid I could quite easily. £15 you can get a decent bottle, below that it is generally extremely poor. £200 it depends on the wine. Bordeaux is incredibly over-priced so that wouldn't buy you a top-growth. In Burgundy you would get a brilliant bottle for that. As I type I'm drinking a Gevrey Chambertin "Lavaut Saint-Jacques" 2008 and that was about £40 and it is lovely (if not wonderful).

I have taken lots of blind-tastings of wine and I can generally tell the grape and the origin.

Chris