Is it all Hype ?

[Vladimir]

Valve vs SS. http://youtu.be/eG41_nFbZwQ

Why people say FET (VFET, JFET, MOSFET) is simlar to valves explained. https://youtu.be/coSt5HWRvv4

 

[Blacksabbath25]

also that report say that some speakers even when they say 8 ohms on the speaker can go as low as 2 ohms the company who makes that speaker is saying its just a rough guide so if your got a low budget amp and your playing some music that song could go as low as 2oms on the low's which can make the amp struggle that's way a better power supply is better to control the low's better

 

[Vladimir]

also that report say that some speakers even when they say 8 oms on the speaker can go as low as 2 oms the company who makes that speaker is saying its just a rough guide so if your got a low budget amp and your playing some music that song could go as low as 2oms on the low's which can make the amp struggle that's way a better power supply is better to control the low's better

That's why you have Abe. Just sit lazy and happy in your couch, completely worry free.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

also that report say that some speakers even when they say 8 oms on the speaker can go as low as 2 oms the company who makes that speaker is saying its just a rough guide so if your got a low budget amp and your playing some music that song could go as low as 2oms on the low's which can make the amp struggle that's way a better power supply is better to control the low's better

That's why you have Abe. Just sit lazy and happy in your couch, completely worry free.

yes that's right *music2* but its amazing how much power an amp will draw on the lows

 

[Vladimir]

In your case 560Wpc RMS in 1 ohm transients.

In 20ms transients the 300J PSU can deliver total of 15,000W.

 

[Gaz37]

Naim sounds exciting. And it certanly beats a lot of competitors today for the hearts and wallets of many audiophiles. It also has the most loyal customer base.

It's been modernized and keeping pace with technology trends, but under all the fancy pantsy it's still rattling buzzing like a hornet on fire Caterham Super 7. If they improve that part it will end up like a BMW M5, playing racing exhaust noise through the Bose speakers.

From a man who believes more power is better lol

A well driven 140bhp Caterham is easily as fast, if not faster than, an M5 on most race tracks, I've seen them giveing some serious exotic cars a hard time, much to the annoyance of their owners.

Reminds me of my old 30w NAD amp lol

 

[Vladimir]

A Super 7 is fast because it's light. What sort of efficiency, impedance drops and phase shifts the amplifier is dealing with is key. Application determines power.

But let's not stretch the car analogy too much.

 

[keeper of the quays]

There are millions of people worldwide who use homeopathy..are they all wrong?

There are several religions with mutually exclusive beliefs and millions of followers. So Assuming one of those religious groups is correct, then all the others must be wrong. So yes, millions of people can be wrong.

well? Homeopathy isnt a religion..i believe its holistic..it deals with the cause rather than the symptom..so i think religion analogy bit spurious...i would add though..in case of serious illness..homeopathy not much help..but for minor or chronic ailments its a good alternative to prescribed drugs..and possibly the placebo effect may be present in this too..but if it works? Must be a good thing..in my opinion...

Note: I have no opinion on Homeopathy. I can't say I've ever given it much thought. I was just responding to your question. We need to be careful not to assume that because a lot of people believe something, that it means their beliefs are correct or supported by real evidence. Keep in mind, at one point the world was believed to be flat, and if you sailed to the edge you would fall off. 

i agree..i think people believe whatever they want to...and if lots of others believe it too, even better! Its a club..lol..but when i see graphs and measurements and whatnot! Suppported by scientific gibberish..telling me all amps are very similiar? I should believe it! The great and good pontificating that this is the truth!!! Because maths and science cant lie? I dont believe it! Im must be a ignoramus..but my ears tell me something else? Its interesting that the great and good who go to a lot of trouble to prove that us hifi fans are silly deluded people .are the ones with budget kit? Mmm? Lol..but we are all fans of music and thats the main thing...i would rather listen through a old transistor radio than not hear music...

 

[ID.]

There are millions of people worldwide who use homeopathy..are they all wrong?

There are several religions with mutually exclusive beliefs and millions of followers. So Assuming one of those religious groups is correct, then all the others must be wrong. So yes, millions of people can be wrong.

well? Homeopathy isnt a religion..i believe its holistic..it deals with the cause rather than the symptom..so i think religion analogy bit spurious...i would add though..in case of serious illness..homeopathy not much help..but for minor or chronic ailments its a good alternative to prescribed drugs..and possibly the placebo effect may be present in this too..but if it works? Must be a good thing..in my opinion...

Note: I have no opinion on Homeopathy. I can't say I've ever given it much thought. I was just responding to your question. We need to be careful not to assume that because a lot of people believe something, that it means their beliefs are correct or supported by real evidence. Keep in mind, at one point the world was believed to be flat, and if you sailed to the edge you would fall off.?

i agree..i think people believe whatever they want to...and if lots of others believe it too, even better! Its a club..lol..but when i see graphs and measurements and whatnot! Suppported by scientific gibberish..telling me all amps are very similiar? I should believe it! The great and good pontificating that this is the truth!!! Because maths and science cant lie? I dont believe it! Im must be a ignoramus..but my ears tell me something else? Its interesting that the great and good who go to a lot of trouble to prove that us hifi fans are silly deluded people .are the ones with budget kit? Mmm? Lol..but we are all fans of music and thats the main thing...i would rather listen through a old transistor radio than not hear music...

Definitely not just people with budget kit. So you trust your ears? Ever done blind testing, ideally volume matched, on any of the equipment you hear massive differences on? Sure, there are differences but not as great as people make out and it's much harder to identify the kit than you'd imagine with the differences originally perceived. Try out your ears without any other preconceptions to bias your reactions (oh, and the preconceptions are subconscious so you don't have to expect a difference, just knowledge of he kit is enough).
It's not that we don't or can't hear differences, we do, even with digital cables. It's just that we know that human senses and perception are far from perfect, objective tools, so want to try to overcome that.
As for amps, it's all down to the speaker and amp interaction so no it's not all hype. It costs money to build an amp that can handle tricky speakers so it's not that any cheap amp will do as long as it measures flat.

 

[cheeseboy]

....Suppported by scientific gibberish..telling me all amps are very similiar? I should believe it! The great and good pontificating that this is the truth!!! Because maths and science cant lie? I dont believe it!

you are aware this is the exact same "scientific gibberish" that allowed for hifi to be created in the first place. So you don't believe in this scientific gibberish, but are willing to spend your time and money on the outcome of this scientific gibberish to the point of coming on to a web forum (again, something only possible with scientific gibberish) to say you don't believe the very things you are using. Wow, that's quite some stance you have there.

Im must be a ignoramus..but my ears tell me something else?

Are you saying that you 100% believe that human senses cannot be fooled and are 100% reliable 100% of the time with 100% accuracy?

Its interesting that the great and good who go to a lot of trouble to prove that us hifi fans are silly deluded people .are the ones with budget kit?

ahh so it's just about willy waving on how much you've spent at the end of the day is it?

 

[Gazzip]

The differences in sound between certain amplifiers is down to the intentional introduction of distortion by the manufacturers in order to produce a distinct sound.

When it comes to our senses (sight, smell, hearing, taste etc.) we are all different with individual tastes and preferences. Some like sweet things, others sour. I like blue as a colour but my wife prefers red. I like a very slight warmth to my sound whereas you may like Cyrus kit.

Manufacturers are simply responding to these diferences in taste and providing alternative products to fill those market sectors.

It is quite simple really and I cannot for the life of me undrstand why people do not get that this is why amplifiers sound different from one another. It is because the original signal is being distorted to meet market demand. Simples.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The differences in sound between certain amplifiers is down to the intentional introduction of distortion by the manufacturers in order to produce a distinct sound.

When it comes to our senses (sight, smell, hearing, taste etc.) we are all different with individual tastes and preferences. Some like sweet things, others sour. I like blue as a colour but my wife prefers red. I like a very slight warmth to my sound whereas you may like Cyrus kit.

Manufacturers are simply responding to these diferences in taste and providing alternative products to fill those market sectors.

It is quite simple really and I cannot for the life of me undrstand why people do not get that this is why amplifiers sound different from one another. It is because the original signal is being distorted to meet market demand. Simples.

Are you saying you paid all that money for a distorted sound?

 

[matt49]

The differences in sound between certain amplifiers is down to the intentional introduction of distortion by the manufacturers in order to produce a distinct sound.

When it comes to our senses (sight, smell, hearing, taste etc.) we are all different with individual tastes and preferences. Some like sweet things, others sour. I like blue as a colour but my wife prefers red. I like a very slight warmth to my sound whereas you may like Cyrus kit.

Manufacturers are simply responding to these diferences in taste and providing alternative products to fill those market sectors.

It is quite simple really and I cannot for the life of me undrstand why people do not get that this is why amplifiers sound different from one another. It is because the original signal is being distorted to meet market demand. Simples.

Are you saying you paid all that money for a distorted sound?

I assume not. I assume what Gazzip means is that his Devialet sounds no different from any other competent amp, i.e. it's undistorted. After all, the Devialet amps do have just about the lowest distortion measurements recorded.

 

[matt49]

PS I have a slightly different take on this. I think that most amps, when level matched and playing undemanding music into relatively sensitive and high-impedance speakers at low-ish volumes, do sound much the same.

But once you introduce more demanding requirements (replay at high volumes, lots of energetic deep bass in the music, insensitive speakers or speakers with weird impedance profiles) then the sheep can be separated from the goats, so to speak. I also suspect that these demanding conditions occur much more frequently than people think.

 

[Vladimir]

I don't think that most manufacturers intentionally voice their amplifiers FR in order to provide a different product to sell. Yes, some do that, secretly add boisterous loudness contours, extra bass, etc. In some cases the specific character will simply come from the limitations of the technology used (valves, old circuit designs etc.). However, I believe they are in the minority.

The most common practice is manipulating the input sensitivity, declared data in specifications and good old suggestions via marketing blurbs. Manipulating perception, not actual products gets them in the clear from legal standpoint. Not always of course, with such regulating bodies like ASA. Occassionally they get a slap on the hand but in general no government wants to destroy a whole private sector niche just to protect people from their ignorance.

 

[keeper of the quays]

There are millions of people worldwide who use homeopathy..are they all wrong?

There are several religions with mutually exclusive beliefs and millions of followers. So Assuming one of those religious groups is correct, then all the others must be wrong. So yes, millions of people can be wrong.

well? Homeopathy isnt a religion..i believe its holistic..it deals with the cause rather than the symptom..so i think religion analogy bit spurious...i would add though..in case of serious illness..homeopathy not much help..but for minor or chronic ailments its a good alternative to prescribed drugs..and possibly the placebo effect may be present in this too..but if it works? Must be a good thing..in my opinion...

Note: I have no opinion on Homeopathy. I can't say I've ever given it much thought. I was just responding to your question. We need to be careful not to assume that because a lot of people believe something, that it means their beliefs are correct or supported by real evidence. Keep in mind, at one point the world was believed to be flat, and if you sailed to the edge you would fall off.?

i agree..i think people believe whatever they want to...and if lots of others believe it too, even better! Its a club..lol..but when i see graphs and measurements and whatnot! Suppported by scientific gibberish..telling me all amps are very similiar? I should believe it! The great and good pontificating that this is the truth!!! Because maths and science cant lie? I dont believe it! Im must be a ignoramus..but my ears tell me something else? Its interesting that the great and good who go to a lot of trouble to prove that us hifi fans are silly deluded people .are the ones with budget kit? Mmm? Lol..but we are all fans of music and thats the main thing...i would rather listen through a old transistor radio than not hear music...

Definitely not just people with budget kit. So you trust your ears? Ever done blind testing, ideally volume matched, on any of the equipment you hear massive differences on? Sure, there are differences but not as great as people make out and it's much harder to identify the kit than you'd imagine with the differences originally perceived. Try out your ears without any other preconceptions to bias your reactions (oh, and the preconceptions are subconscious so you don't have to expect a difference, just knowledge of he kit is enough).
It's not that we don't or can't hear differences, we do, even with digital cables. It's just that we know that human senses and perception are far from perfect, objective tools, so want to try to overcome that.
As for amps, it's all down to the speaker and amp interaction so no it's not all hype. It costs money to build an amp that can handle tricky speakers so it's not that any cheap amp will do as long as it measures flat.

i have to trust my ears..what else is there? I honestly think with one of my cds doing that blind test re wadia vs sony? I could tell the difference..i think i could explain the difference too! I think every reviewer on what hifi could do this? In fact most people on this forum could as well, im convinced of this...the point of that silly test was to show how gullible us hifi fans are? You, me and everyone else included! Of course the ones with more budget kit would feel vindicated! Lol...but all of us were being singled out as fools..even to the point of people here trying to prove we are foolish..with their graphs and measurements..as i was trying to explain before..they with their cleverness delude themselves...amps are not the same..they never were...or ever will be...i would happily submit to a blind test..with one cd...and if i failed? Hahaha..i would own up to it! And then reconsider my position...but then it wont happen...all of us would pass this test! Sony stuff is ok..but el cheapo cables vs wadia and good cables? I trust my ears..not theirs

 

[Gazzip]

Are you saying you paid all that money for a distorted sound?

I paid all that money for a sound I like.

For what it's worth ( and that by the way is not very much given that it is personal opinion) I went through many different options when downsizing from my gargantuan reference system of PMC BB5SE's, Bryston 28BSST2's and an Audio Research front end. I learnt a lot about the differences in sound that different manufacturer's equipment can produce. The equipment I had on demo was always in my own listening room and always played through the same loudspeakers (BB5SE's) and cables, and always using the same Moon network player.

In relation to my (then) reference system I can tell you that Musical Fidelity amps "remove" a lot of lower frequency information in order to promote mids and highs, giving their kit a detailed but underweight sound. I can tell you that Chord Electroincs amps turn up 'da bass and upper mids to give an extremely powerful and full presentation which is tiring over prolonged periods. I can tell you that Bryston amps are fairly even handed and are ultimately a little dry for it. I can tell you that Devialet offer an even handed presentation with a little tiny bit of syrup which takes away what could otherwise be quite dry.

But hey, what do I know. Apparently they all sounded the same so I am completely wrong. Even though there were clearly audible low frequency notes on some kit and not on other kit when playing identical tracks. Guess it must be my hearing if the measurements say otherwise.

 

[CnoEvil]

But hey, what do I know.
 

Personally, I think you have a terrific grasp of how a variety of equipment sounds, as well as a great understanding of the sound you like (which is very much on the neutral side).

I agree with you view of MF, except the AMS range, now sadly discontinued.

 

[Vladimir]

But hey, what do I know. Apparently they all sounded the same so I am completely wrong. Even though there were clearly audible low frequency notes on some kit and not on other kit when playing identical tracks. Guess it must be my hearing if the measurements say otherwise.

No offence or personal attack on you Gazzip, but you seem to be completely missing the point of the discussion.

 

[Gazzip]

But hey, what do I know. Apparently they all sounded the same so I am completely wrong. Even though there were clearly audible low frequency notes on some kit and not on other kit when playing identical tracks. Guess it must be my hearing if the measurements say otherwise.

No offence or personal attack on you Gazzip, but you seem to be completely missing the point of the discussion.

None taken. I thought we were discussing the sonic differences between amplifiers and why some people think they sound different and others think they sound the same? I was just offering an opinion based upon my experiences as to why they may sound different.

 

[Gazzip]

Can't be bothered designing **** today.

 

[Vladimir]

None taken. I thought we were discussing the sonic differences between amplifiers and why some people think they sound different and others think they sound the same? I was just offering an opinion based upon my experiences as to why they may sound different.

The point was can you tell if one amp is more syrupy than other in a double-blind test, an ABX test. We can pile such subjective anecdotal reviews for days and get pats on the back from Cno untill his arm goes numb like a teenager. What use is that to us if it's not real in the physical world? You imagined it's syrupy, I may think it's mustardy, Andrew may think it's ketchupy.... just silly.

What I want to know is if Amplifier X is perfectly capable to drive Loudspeakers Y for my choice of music, room, SPL etc. How are food dressings going to relay the needed information accurately to me? And why would I care for someones preferences and limited experience?

What are your comments on what professionals, scientists and engineers have to say on this? I posted few of those already.

 

[Gazzip]

None taken. I thought we were discussing the sonic differences between amplifiers and why some people think they sound different and others think they sound the same? I was just offering an opinion based upon my experiences as to why they may sound different.

The point was can you tell if one amp is more syrupy than other in a double-blind test, an ABX test. We can pile such subjective anecdotal reviews for days and get pats on the back from Cno untill his arm goes numb like a teenager. What use is that to us if it's not real in the physical world? You imagined it's syrupy, I may think it's mustardy, Andrew may think it's ketchupy.... just silly.

What I want to know is if Amplifier X is perfectly capable to drive Loudspeakers Y for my choice of music, room, SPL etc. How are food dressings going to relay the needed information accurately to me? And why would I care for someones preferences and limited experience?

What are your comments on what professionals, scientists and engineers have to say on this? I posted few of those already.

My comment is that I could 100% tell the difference between the amplfiers I borrowed for an extended demo. Sorry if that reaction doesn't fit in to your scientific model but that was my experience.

 

[Vladimir]

I too hear differences in amps, cables, CD players, different isolation pads etc. I also see the Sun orbiting around the Earth, which looks flat btw. I see a silver disc on the sky at night and to my senses it looks like a plate. But science teaches me otherwise. Should I believe science or my senses?

 

[Andrewjvt]

Are you saying you paid all that money for a distorted sound?

I paid all that money for a sound I like.

For what it's worth ( and that by the way is not very much given that it is personal opinion) I went through many different options when downsizing from my gargantuan reference system of PMC BB5SE's, Bryston 28BSST2's and an Audio Research front end. I learnt a lot about the differences in sound that different manufacturer's equipment can produce. The equipment I had on demo was always in my own listening room and always played through the same loudspeakers (BB5SE's) and cables, and always using the same Moon network player.

In relation to my (then) reference system I can tell you that Musical Fidelity amps "remove" a lot of lower frequency information in order to promote mids and highs, giving their kit a detailed but underweight sound. I can tell you that Chord Electroincs amps turn up 'da bass and upper mids to give an extremely powerful and full presentation which is tiring over prolonged periods. I can tell you that Bryston amps are fairly even handed and are ultimately a little dry for it. I can tell you that Devialet offer an even handed presentation with a little tiny bit of syrup which takes away what could otherwise be quite dry.

But hey, what do I know. Apparently they all sounded the same so I am completely wrong. Even though there were clearly audible low frequency notes on some kit and not on other kit when playing identical tracks. Guess it must be my hearing if the measurements say otherwise.

 

Smile