Is it all Hype ?

[Gazzip]

I too hear differences in amps, cables, CD players, different isolation pads etc. I also see the Sun orbiting around the Earth, which looks flat btw. I see a silver disc on the sky at night and to my senses it looks like a plate. But science teaches me otherwise. Should I believe science or my senses?

Trust your senses and understand some of the limitations of scientific measurement?

www.audiomisc.co.uk/distortion/page1.html

Give this a read. Measuring amplifier performance is not quite as clear cut as you like to think it is.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I too hear differences in amps, cables, CD players, different isolation pads etc. I also see the Sun orbiting around the Earth, which looks flat btw. I see a silver disc on the sky at night and to my senses it looks like a plate. But science teaches me otherwise. Should I believe science or my senses?

I think this is a good analogy.

The only problem with it is that we are taught from a very young age that the earth is round and the earth orbits the sun etc... So we accept this as fact and understand our perception as a human standing on Earth is an illusion.

Audiophiles with no/limited knowledge on how their equipment works however are taught by the press that there are night and day differences between CD players, and cables add their own tonal characteristics. Without any scientific or engineering background most people in the audiophile world will believe such claims, becuse it is all witchcraft to them anyway.

Lets face it if we were all conditioned into believing the earth was flat until now, we would all have a hard time accepting that it isn't. So the individuals posting in threads like this who believe the things published in places like What Hi Fi are going to have real difficulty accepting the logic and the science. They are going to keep on trusting their senses and believing that illusion of the sun orbiting the Earth.

The more they have been brainwashed and trusted their ears and the more money they have spent on magic boxes and bits of wire then the more they will resent the science.

 

[Vladimir]

You gave the classical reply "Science doesn't know everything".

When people who believe the Sun revolves around the Earth are confroted with scientific evidence, they usually reply that the evidence is insuficient because we haven't gone to the Sun really. We just measure and observe at a distance.

Believe it or not, amplifiers are no challenge or secret to science or engineering. All the good EE's have moved to video, IT, avionics, telecoms and med hardware. All amplifiers you can buy today are decades old circuit designs.

 

[Gazzip]

You gave the classical reply "Science doesn't know everything".

When people who believe the Sun revolves around the Earth are confroted with scientific evidence, they usually reply that the evidence is insuficient because we haven't gone to the Sun really. We just measure and observe at a distance.

Believe it or not, amplifiers are no challenge or secret to science or engineering. All the good EE's have moved to video, IT, avionics, telecoms and med hardware. All amplifiers you can buy today are decades old circuit designs.

You just chose to ignore my web link to a scientific study designed to explain why traditional measurement methods are limited and which puts forward logical scientific explanation for why people hear differences.

 

[spiny norman]

You just chose to ignore my web link to a scientific study designed to explain why traditional measurement methods are limited and which puts forward logical scientific explanation for why people hear differences.

It's an internet forum: them's the rules. ;-)

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Bit controversial.

i am no expert but what i have learnt from experience is that: difference,between a £200 amp and say £500 one, would be quite apparent. However as you move up the ladder you might not find the differences as apparent and i am saying this purely in terms of sound quality. More expensive amp will give more power, better built quality, etc but even the differences those attributes seem to fizzle out as you move further up the ladder and the law of dimishing return kicks in.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Keeping to the point of this thread..cheap kit v not so cheap kit..most couldnt tell which from which? People then posted measurements, graphs..to try and show all amps are similar? And i guess to point the finger at others who have flash kit? Showing in some way that they wasted money and that its snobbery more than discernment? I guess they are the willy wavers..my kit isnt esp flash..all secondhand! You extrapolating what i said to involve all science! Is frankly bit silly..my view is my ears hear..measurements are of no use..yes i technology use to access this site..and of course technology makes things more accessable, cheaper and google seems to know everything..albeit every question has a thousand answers! Lol...but to say we are easily duped..re that blind test..i disagree..i have a attic full of hifi which is discarded in the search for a better sound!..i think my kit now is ok..and no blind test..measurements, graphs or sophistry will change my mind...cheers

 

[Gazzip]

I too hear differences in amps, cables, CD players, different isolation pads etc. I also see the Sun orbiting around the Earth, which looks flat btw. I see a silver disc on the sky at night and to my senses it looks like a plate. But science teaches me otherwise. Should I believe science or my senses?

I think this is a good analogy.

The only problem with it is that we are taught from a very young age that the earth is round and the earth orbits the sun etc... So we accept this as fact and understand our perception as a human standing on Earth is an illusion.

Audiophiles with no/limited knowledge on how their equipment works however are taught by the press that there are night and day differences between CD players, and cables add their own tonal characteristics. Without any scientific or engineering background most people in the audiophile world will believe such claims, becuse it is all witchcraft to them anyway.

Lets face it if we were all conditioned into believing the earth was flat until now, we would all have a hard time accepting that it isn't. So the individuals posting in threads like this who believe the things published in places like What Hi Fi are going to have real difficulty accepting the logic and the science. They are going to keep on trusting their senses and believing that illusion of the sun orbiting the Earth.

The more they have been brainwashed and trusted their ears and the more money they have spent on magic boxes and bits of wire then the more they will resent the science.

You just chose to ignore my web link to a scientific study designed to explain why traditional measurement methods are limited and which puts forward logical scientific explanation for why people hear differences.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Keeping to the point of this thread..cheap kit v not so cheap kit..most couldnt tell which from which? People then posted measurements, graphs..to try and show all amps are similar? And i guess to point the finger at others who have flash kit? Showing in some way that they wasted money and that its snobbery more than discernment? I guess they are the willy wavers..my kit isnt esp flash..all secondhand! You extrapolating what i said to involve all science! Is frankly bit silly..my view is my ears hear..measurements are of no use..yes i technology use to access this site..and of course technology makes things more accessable, cheaper and google seems to know everything..albeit every question has a thousand answers! Lol...but to say we are easily duped..re that blind test..i disagree..i have a attic full of hifi which is discarded in the search for a better sound!..i think my kit now is ok..and no blind test..measurements, graphs or sophistry will change my mind...cheers

ummmmmm!

 

[Vladimir]

You just chose to ignore my web link to a scientific study designed to explain why traditional measurement methods are limited and which puts forward logical scientific explanation for why people hear differences.

I did open it and reading it.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Bit controversial.

i am no expert but what i have learnt from experience is that: difference,between a £200 amp and say £500 one, would be quite apparent. However as you move up the ladder you might not find the differences as apparent and i am saying this purely in terms of sound quality. More expensive amp will give more power, better built quality, etc but even the differences those attributes seem to fizzle out as you move further up the ladder and the law of dimishing return kicks in.

well..they may seem small, the differences..or you could call them subtle or maybe nuances..but i think better kit finds the details in the music that were there anyway but couldnt be discerned with less revealing kit..so its important..in as much as its there on the recording! I listen intently..maybe too intently? But not everyone does...which is fine...

 

[Vladimir]

One of the factors which can affect the audible performance of audio amplifiers is the tendency for the audio signal patterns to become distorted by various non-linearities. As a result, it is common for reviews to provide values which are intended to indicate how much a given amplifier may distort the waveforms. Unfortunately, experience has indicated that many of the measured results don’t give a very reliable indication of the audible results. The purpose of this document is therefore to have a fresh look at distortion measurements, and to suggest an alternative approach that might prove more useful when dealing with amplifiers that are used to reproduce music.

OK. First of all, it's not a scientific study, despite it looks like alien language to us and is written by a retired PhD Physicist.

Secondly, It's a proposal for amplifier distortion measuring methodology. Why would I have issues with this? It just proposes improvements on an existing concept maybe 100 years old (first valve amp made by John Ambrose Fleming for the Marconi company in 1904).

And how should this convince me to trust my senses more than an array of scientific measurements and double-blind tests? *unknw*

 

[Gazzip]

One of the factors which can affect the audible performance of audio amplifiers is the tendency for the audio signal patterns to become distorted by various non-linearities. As a result, it is common for reviews to provide values which are intended to indicate how much a given amplifier may distort the waveforms. Unfortunately, experience has indicated that many of the measured results don’t give a very reliable indication of the audible results. The purpose of this document is therefore to have a fresh look at distortion measurements, and to suggest an alternative approach that might prove more useful when dealing with amplifiers that are used to reproduce music.

OK. First of all, it's not a scientific study, despite it looks like alien language to us and is written by a retired PhD Physicist.

Secondly, It's a proposal for amplifier distortion measuring methodology. Why would I have issues with this? It just proposes improvements on an existing concept maybe 100 years old (first valve amp made by John Ambrose Fleming for the Marconi company in 1904).

And how should this convince me to trust my senses more than an array of scientific measurements and double-blind tests? *unknw*

It is a proposal for a revised amplifier distortion measuring methodology because as the author states the current methodology is not suitable for measuring audio amplifier distortion, especially in relation to music.

 

[Vladimir]

That's OK. He says he thought of a better way and after he conducts a scientific study and provides the evidence his proposed method is better, we will all congratulate him for his contribution. It's up to his peers at the Audio Engineering Society to review his work.

So you are skeptical of science but not of your senses? *air_kiss*

 

[Gazzip]

That's OK. He says he thought of a better way and after he conducts a scientific study and provides the evidence his proposed method is better, we will all congratulate him for his contribution. It's up to his peers at the Audio Engineering Society to review his work.

So you are skeptical of science but not of your senses? *air_kiss*

I treat each with the respect that they are due. Senses can be flawed but science can be misleading.

 

[ID.]

There are millions of people worldwide who use homeopathy..are they all wrong?

There are several religions with mutually exclusive beliefs and millions of followers. So Assuming one of those religious groups is correct, then all the others must be wrong. So yes, millions of people can be wrong.

well? Homeopathy isnt a religion..i believe its holistic..it deals with the cause rather than the symptom..so i think religion analogy bit spurious...i would add though..in case of serious illness..homeopathy not much help..but for minor or chronic ailments its a good alternative to prescribed drugs..and possibly the placebo effect may be present in this too..but if it works? Must be a good thing..in my opinion...

Note: I have no opinion on Homeopathy. I can't say I've ever given it much thought. I was just responding to your question. We need to be careful not to assume that because a lot of people believe something, that it means their beliefs are correct or supported by real evidence. Keep in mind, at one point the world was believed to be flat, and if you sailed to the edge you would fall off.

i agree..i think people believe whatever they want to...and if lots of others believe it too, even better! Its a club..lol..but when i see graphs and measurements and whatnot! Suppported by scientific gibberish..telling me all amps are very similiar? I should believe it! The great and good pontificating that this is the truth!!! Because maths and science cant lie? I dont believe it! Im must be a ignoramus..but my ears tell me something else? Its interesting that the great and good who go to a lot of trouble to prove that us hifi fans are silly deluded people .are the ones with budget kit? Mmm? Lol..but we are all fans of music and thats the main thing...i would rather listen through a old transistor radio than not hear music...

Definitely not just people with budget kit. So you trust your ears? Ever done blind testing, ideally volume matched, on any of the equipment you hear massive differences on? Sure, there are differences but not as great as people make out and it's much harder to identify the kit than you'd imagine with the differences originally perceived. Try out your ears without any other preconceptions to bias your reactions (oh, and the preconceptions are subconscious so you don't have to expect a difference, just knowledge of he kit is enough). It's not that we don't or can't hear differences, we do, even with digital cables. It's just that we know that human senses and perception are far from perfect, objective tools, so want to try to overcome that. As for amps, it's all down to the speaker and amp interaction so no it's not all hype. It costs money to build an amp that can handle tricky speakers so it's not that any cheap amp will do as long as it measures flat.

i have to trust my ears..what else is there? I honestly think with one of my cds doing that blind test re wadia vs sony? I could tell the difference..i think i could explain the difference too! I think every reviewer on what hifi could do this? In fact most people on this forum could as well, im convinced of this...the point of that silly test was to show how gullible us hifi fans are? You, me and everyone else included! Of course the ones with more budget kit would feel vindicated! Lol...but all of us were being singled out as fools..even to the point of people here trying to prove we are foolish..with their graphs and measurements..as i was trying to explain before..they with their cleverness delude themselves...amps are not the same..they never were...or ever will be...i would happily submit to a blind test..with one cd...and if i failed? Hahaha..i would own up to it! And then reconsider my position...but then it wont happen...all of us would pass this test! Sony stuff is ok..but el cheapo cables vs wadia and good cables? I trust my ears..not theirs

you think you could tell the difference? Thats the problem. You aren't prepared to consider that the differences might be much harder to pick out than you think once other "distractions" are removed from the equation. The old, I know what I heard and I have no reason to doubt it or test it argument.

 

[Vladimir]

What is your definition of snake oil?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Bit controversial.

i am no expert but what i have learnt from experience is that: difference,between a £200 amp and say £500 one, would be quite apparent. However as you move up the ladder you might not find the differences as apparent and i am saying this purely in terms of sound quality. More expensive amp will give more power, better built quality, etc but even the differences those attributes seem to fizzle out as you move further up the ladder and the law of dimishing return kicks in.

well..they may seem small, the differences..or you could call them subtle or maybe nuances..but i think better kit finds the details in the music that were there anyway but couldnt be discerned with less revealing kit..so its important..in as much as its there on the recording! I listen intently..maybe too intently? But not everyone does...which is fine...

when i upgraded my amp from a 20 year old entry level musical fidelity to creek evo50a differences i heard was qiute remarkable. However when i moved from evo50 (£750) to tucana ii (£3500) again i am reiterating here, in terms of sound quality , at low to moderate level, i found the differences to be subtle altough more expansive. Having said that, in all other areas tucana ii does manage to somewhat justify the price difference. It gives more power hence has better grip and drives the speakers well, performs just as well at higher volume, better build quality and also Moving from one very good amp to another very good amp even the subtle changes can equal to big improvements.

i think it does also come down to how you make your purchases.

Personally if i had to pay the RRP for the tucana ii i would have quite happily kept the evo50a.

 

[lindsayt]

I too hear differences in amps, cables, CD players, different isolation pads etc. I also see the Sun orbiting around the Earth, which looks flat btw. I see a silver disc on the sky at night and to my senses it looks like a plate. But science teaches me otherwise. Should I believe science or my senses?

The round earth vs flat earth observation analogy falls down when it comes to hi-fi.

If anyone were to jump in a Saturn V rocket and look at the Earth from space they would see that it is round. They would see the same thing as everyone else. They would also see that the reason the Earth looks flat from the ground and round from space is due to the change in perspective from each viewpoint.

There is no hi-fi equivalent to a Saturn V rocket journey.

 

[keeper of the quays]

There are millions of people worldwide who use homeopathy..are they all wrong?

There are several religions with mutually exclusive beliefs and millions of followers. So Assuming one of those religious groups is correct, then all the others must be wrong. So yes, millions of people can be wrong.

well? Homeopathy isnt a religion..i believe its holistic..it deals with the cause rather than the symptom..so i think religion analogy bit spurious...i would add though..in case of serious illness..homeopathy not much help..but for minor or chronic ailments its a good alternative to prescribed drugs..and possibly the placebo effect may be present in this too..but if it works? Must be a good thing..in my opinion...

Note: I have no opinion on Homeopathy. I can't say I've ever given it much thought. I was just responding to your question. We need to be careful not to assume that because a lot of people believe something, that it means their beliefs are correct or supported by real evidence. Keep in mind, at one point the world was believed to be flat, and if you sailed to the edge you would fall off.?

i agree..i think people believe whatever they want to...and if lots of others believe it too, even better! Its a club..lol..but when i see graphs and measurements and whatnot! Suppported by scientific gibberish..telling me all amps are very similiar? I should believe it! The great and good pontificating that this is the truth!!! Because maths and science cant lie? I dont believe it! Im must be a ignoramus..but my ears tell me something else? Its interesting that the great and good who go to a lot of trouble to prove that us hifi fans are silly deluded people .are the ones with budget kit? Mmm? Lol..but we are all fans of music and thats the main thing...i would rather listen through a old transistor radio than not hear music...

Definitely not just people with budget kit. So you trust your ears? Ever done blind testing, ideally volume matched, on any of the equipment you hear massive differences on? Sure, there are differences but not as great as people make out and it's much harder to identify the kit than you'd imagine with the differences originally perceived. Try out your ears without any other preconceptions to bias your reactions (oh, and the preconceptions are subconscious so you don't have to expect a difference, just knowledge of he kit is enough). It's not that we don't or can't hear differences, we do, even with digital cables. It's just that we know that human senses and perception are far from perfect, objective tools, so want to try to overcome that. As for amps, it's all down to the speaker and amp interaction so no it's not all hype. It costs money to build an amp that can handle tricky speakers so it's not that any cheap amp will do as long as it measures flat.

i have to trust my ears..what else is there? I honestly think with one of my cds doing that blind test re wadia vs sony? I could tell the difference..i think i could explain the difference too! I think every reviewer on what hifi could do this? In fact most people on this forum could as well, im convinced of this...the point of that silly test was to show how gullible us hifi fans are? You, me and everyone else included! Of course the ones with more budget kit would feel vindicated! Lol...but all of us were being singled out as fools..even to the point of people here trying to prove we are foolish..with their graphs and measurements..as i was trying to explain before..they with their cleverness delude themselves...amps are not the same..they never were...or ever will be...i would happily submit to a blind test..with one cd...and if i failed? Hahaha..i would own up to it! And then reconsider my position...but then it wont happen...all of us would pass this test! Sony stuff is ok..but el cheapo cables vs wadia and good cables? I trust my ears..not theirs

you think you could tell the difference? Thats the problem. You aren't prepared to consider that the differences might be much harder to pick out than you think once other "distractions" are removed from the equation. The old, I know what I heard and I have no reason to doubt it or test it argument.?

 

i honestly believe i could hear different things, in fact some of changes are huge..i can give some examples if you want? But as i said before, we all choose with our ears..even the measurement, graph bs baffles brains officiandos..chose by listening. Not by measurements...so science..whizzy flashing lights..special thick aluminium billets..etc doesnt make the choice..it may sweeten the pill? But we listened..demo the kit..who buys a piece of kit on its measurements? No one...we all think we have the sound thats best? Whatever that is?

 

[Vladimir]

I bought a pair of speakers, DAC and cables based on measurements alone and without auditioning just last month. *crazy*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Bit controversial.

i am no expert but what i have learnt from experience is that: difference,between a £200 amp and say £500 one, would be quite apparent. However as you move up the ladder you might not find the differences as apparent and i am saying this purely in terms of sound quality. More expensive amp will give more power, better built quality, etc but even the differences those attributes seem to fizzle out as you move further up the ladder and the law of dimishing return kicks in.

well..they may seem small, the differences..or you could call them subtle or maybe nuances..but i think better kit finds the details in the music that were there anyway but couldnt be discerned with less revealing kit..so its important..in as much as its there on the recording! I listen intently..maybe too intently? But not everyone does...which is fine...

when i upgraded my amp from a 20 year old entry level musical fidelity to creek evo50a differences i heard was qiute remarkable. However when i moved from evo50 (£750) to tucana ii (£3500) again i am reiterating here, in terms of sound quality , at low to moderate level, i found the differences to be subtle altough more expansive. Having said that, in all other areas tucana ii does manage to somewhat justify the price difference. It gives more power hence has better grip and drives the speakers well, performs just as well at higher volume, better build quality and also Moving from one very good amp to another very good amp even the subtle changes can equal to big improvements.

i think it does also come down to how you make your purchases.

Personally if i had to pay the RRP for the tucana ii i would have quite happily kept the evo50a.

the thing is it's not really down how much money the amp cost it's how the amplifier copes with what job it has to do yes all amplifiers give sound but how it manages the power that matters and some amplifiers give out more distortion then others do and maybe the high end amplifiers give out less distortion then say a budget amplifiers will . But also amplifiers with big power supplies are going to cope better with the lows that you have in music the amplifier does not have to work so heard as a budget amplifier does and speakers companies give a rough guide to their speaker ohms even if it says 8 ohms the speakers could go as low as 2 ohms on a low now what will that sound like when a budget amplifiers try to go that low lots of distortion which I think maybe it's this distortion that makes us think every amplifier sound different I feel the same I believe that even that at the end of the day a amplifier is a amplifier to our ears they do sound different . I see around the web that this debate has gone on for a long time there are 2 camps of thoughts 1 . the science 2 . The believers that every amplifier sounds different but even if you spent £20.000 on a amplifier they are still not perfect even at that price

 

[matt49]

OK. First of all, it's not a scientific study, despite it looks like alien language to us and is written by a retired PhD Physicist.

Vlad, your used of the word 'retired' suggests you don't think much of Jim Lesurf. You seriously need to wind your neck in.

This guy was Reader in Electronics at St Andrew's. As far as electronics is concerned, that's pretty close to the top of the tree. He's also author of this book, published by the UK's Institute of Physics, which is generally acknowledged to be a state of the art UG textbook.

I think you have a serious problem. If you went over to the PFM forum, you'd find a bunch of 'objectivists' (guys like Werner and adamdea) who know far more than you and would eat you for breakfast. But because you have a little knowledge of electronics, you think you can lord it over the people here.

It's not a very edifying spectacle.

 

[Vladimir]

I looked into his bio and I mentioned he is retired in a positive way, as in experienced. Read the context of the whole sentance.

I hate you too.

 

[alwaysbeblue1]

Seems to suggest that there is probably no increase in quality from say a 500 amp to a 1500 amp but you may get a different sound that you like.

So why not spend 500 and find an amp that you like the sound of

I still find it strange that someone will spend say 1500 on an amp that they know has no real extra quality over a 500 amp, but almost convince yourself that it does or at least enough to warrant an extra 1000.

The only big difference I have noticed is in my speakers, from 900 dynaudio to 2500 spendor a6r. Listening to different amps at this stage seems to make no real difference at all