Question Is hi-fi like wine?

[Friesiansam]

As long as your Hi fi is good then it should sound pretty good regardless.

I think your Hi fi should aim for pretty good rather than best in the world.

If it makes you happy it's good enough, mine does that. Doesn't entirely stop upgraditis though but, the high cost deals with that problem...

 

[Dom]

If it makes you happy it's good enough, mine does that. Doesn't entirely stop upgraditis though but, the high cost deals with that problem...

I don't really get upgrade-itis anymore just Hi fi annoyance. There's just no way on benefits, not in this economy.

 

[Friesiansam]

There's just no way on benefits, not in this economy.

It's the same for me...

 

[Dom]

It's the same for me...

Yeah the winds of change is approaching.

If you get worried then drink a lager, and they will disappear like memories into the past.

 

[Jasonovich]

I am wondering what you think, or what your experiences have been.

With wine, at supermarket / wine shop prices, going from the cheapest £3 bottle to £5 to £6 usually makes a decent improvement. Then noticeable quality starts to kick in at £10-15.

Beyond this price point I have always struggled to really taste a worthwhile difference for the additional cost. Admittedly the most expensive wine I have drunk has been around £50 for a bottle and I didn’t enjoy it (as much as I had hoped, maybe judging because of the price.

There is a lot of fuss and effort to review and give high accolades to very pricey wine. Is it real?

I wonder if hi if is the same. I remember upgrading my first richer sounds hi fi set up, going from £150 per item to £300 in the early 2000’s. I noticed a big step up In the first system from an all in one system we had a teenagers, then another big Jump when I doubled the value. This was the Cambridge audio 640a and c range at the time.

Kind of feels this first step was going from plonk to a £6 bottle, then the next upgrade to £10.

I have stepped up again recently with a new arcam sa 20 amp, ca cxn v2 and kef q750 speakers. So around £700-1000 per item. I hear a step up in detail, soundstage etc. and it feels like going from a £10 wine to maybe £15.

Have you made the jump to equipment costing £2000 per item and what the jump was like And whether the improvements versus the price point really justified it.

Or is it more of a hobby to be enjoyed?

If wine was like HiFi, I'll be an alcoholic!

 

[Jasonovich]

I would take your coffee analogy a step further and say McDonald's coffee tastes better than Starbucks. You can spend more and get the same or not as good. This is very true in HiFi.

The taste from different coffee and the sound from different HiFi, share a common cord, they're both subjective.

 

[Dom]

If wine was like HiFi, I'll be an alcoholic!

Your already an an overachiever in the romance department, bunny honey.

 

[matthewpianist]

I've owned systems ranging from £300 (Denon DM-30 with SCM-50 speakers) up to £5k (Quad Artera pre/power based), and all sorts in-between. My current system cost me £900 all-in.

If I could go back 20 years, what would I do differently?

Cut all the wasteful chopping and changing, the never-ending pursuit of some sort of nirvana. I'd read less magazines placing exotic kit on a pedestal and keep my feet planted in the real world where my financial means reside.

I'd skip the journey and take the direct route, from the first Denon system (the speakers for which were made by Mission) to my present one. It's as fulfilling and enjoyable as any I've had.

Does better exist? I would certainly appreciate a combination of NAD M10 or M33 with GoldenEar speakers if I had the budget right now, but that just happens to be a divine match.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

"The taste from different coffee and the sound from different HiFi, share a common cord, they're both subjective."

I have reached a lovely place in life where I like the coffee I make (and buy); the wine I buy; and the various HiFi and tv/theatre installations that I've got.

Notwithstanding that, I expect I'll:

1. buy a WiiM Pro Plus (50% needed / 50% upgrade to a "one box");
2. buy a WiiM Amp (100% whim (pardon the pun) just to give it a go); and
3. look for a second hand set of white Neat Alpha Iotas (50% whim; 50% so I can move the Dali's to a second system).

But like MP, I've been threw many many iterations, and now get enough from Sonos for tv/theatre and office/bedside listening; am happy with my one box solution (Naim Uniti Lite) and enjoy the Primaluna set up (mainly due to the story behind it).

Again, like MP, I'd have happily have gone straight to a one box solution (Lyngdorf comes to mind)!

 

[podknocker]

Many people are very dismissive of single box solutions, but there is no need. There's a storm coming over the next 5 years and it's full of Class D streamers. Small, efficient and quiet, with amazing DACs and PSUs. Everything else will be an expensive, cumbersome dinosaur and we'll wonder how we put up with the old school kit. Valves and vinyl, huge monstrous lumps and slabs of overengineered and overpriced nonsense. Hold on, because the storm's coming!

 

[Oxfordian]

Many people are very dismissive of single box solutions, but there is no need. There's a storm coming over the next 5 years and it's full of Class D streamers. Small, efficient and quiet, with amazing DACs and PSUs. Everything else will be an expensive, cumbersome dinosaur and we'll wonder how we put up with the old school kit. Valves and vinyl, huge monstrous lumps and slabs of overengineered and overpriced nonsense. Hold on, because the storm's coming!

The one box set-up may suit many but not everyone, I have said on a number of occasions that streaming leaves me cold, I love that physical interaction that I get with Vinyl and to a degree CD, I do not see me rushing out to splash my hard earned cash on a single box of electronics that will be out of date before I get it home.

I understand that over 85% of the music that people listen too is streamed, but I am firmly in that 15% group of dinosaurs happy in having a physical medium as my source material.

When you factor in just how many people come into that 15% group it will be a long long time before the physical medium disappears completely if it ever does. There will also be many who will be content to have a streaming set-up and a vinyl/cd set-up.

You will have heard that there are more and more up and coming artists releasing their music on physical medium as that is the only way that they can get money for what they do.

As for old school kit, well I have source material that is over 50 years old and it still works just fine, I wonder if the latest and greatest one box solutions will still be usable in 50 years time?

I understand that our musical listening can be done through a one box solution, a box that can be everything that we want it to be, but whilst it will be the answer to many people's prayers it wouldn't be the answer for everyone.

Dinosaurs Rule!!

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

The one box set-up may suit many but not everyone, I have said on a number of occasions that streaming leaves me cold, I love that physical interaction that I get with Vinyl and to a degree CD, I do not see me rushing out to splash my hard earned cash on a single box of electronics that will be out of date before I get it home.

I understand that over 85% of the music that people listen too is streamed, but I am firmly in that 15% group of dinosaurs happy in having a physical medium as my source material.

When you factor in just how many people come into that 15% group it will be a long long time before the physical medium disappears completely if it ever does. There will also be many who will be content to have a streaming set-up and a vinyl/cd set-up.

You will have heard that there are more and more up and coming artists releasing their music on physical medium as that is the only way that they can get money for what they do.

As for old school kit, well I have source material that is over 50 years old and it still works just fine, I wonder if the latest and greatest one box solutions will still be usable in 50 years time?

I understand that our musical listening can be done through a one box solution, a box that can be everything that we want it to be, but whilst it will be the answer to many people's prayers it wouldn't be the answer for everyone.

Dinosaurs Rule!!

I'll be sure to darn the holes in my socks before I come for a listen on your system

 

[matthewpianist]

The one box set-up may suit many but not everyone, I have said on a number of occasions that streaming leaves me cold, I love that physical interaction that I get with Vinyl and to a degree CD, I do not see me rushing out to splash my hard earned cash on a single box of electronics that will be out of date before I get it home.

I understand that over 85% of the music that people listen too is streamed, but I am firmly in that 15% group of dinosaurs happy in having a physical medium as my source material.

When you factor in just how many people come into that 15% group it will be a long long time before the physical medium disappears completely if it ever does. There will also be many who will be content to have a streaming set-up and a vinyl/cd set-up.

You will have heard that there are more and more up and coming artists releasing their music on physical medium as that is the only way that they can get money for what they do.

As for old school kit, well I have source material that is over 50 years old and it still works just fine, I wonder if the latest and greatest one box solutions will still be usable in 50 years time?

I understand that our musical listening can be done through a one box solution, a box that can be everything that we want it to be, but whilst it will be the answer to many people's prayers it wouldn't be the answer for everyone.

Dinosaurs Rule!!

I'm in agreement that one box systems aren't for everyone, but I don't see what that has to do with physical vs. streaming. My Denon may have integrated streaming (which works very well), but it also plays CDs superbly, and that's my main format (I have circa 4,000 of them). There's also the analogue input that phono stage is plugged into, so vinyl is still there too.

Will my system last for 50 years? The speakers likely will, but if the Denon lasts me the 6 years it's under warranty for, I'll be happy. It was £299.00 - a bargain, and even more so given that would work out at £49.83 per year, or less than £5 per month. It comfortably equals the performance of entry-level separates such as the Marantz 6007 series and Denon's own CD/amp combinations, so I'm not losing out there. I'm also getting firmware and app updates when they launch, including the most recent one which is a really step forward in navigation.

 

[podknocker]

The one box set-up may suit many but not everyone, I have said on a number of occasions that streaming leaves me cold, I love that physical interaction that I get with Vinyl and to a degree CD, I do not see me rushing out to splash my hard earned cash on a single box of electronics that will be out of date before I get it home.

I understand that over 85% of the music that people listen too is streamed, but I am firmly in that 15% group of dinosaurs happy in having a physical medium as my source material.

When you factor in just how many people come into that 15% group it will be a long long time before the physical medium disappears completely if it ever does. There will also be many who will be content to have a streaming set-up and a vinyl/cd set-up.

You will have heard that there are more and more up and coming artists releasing their music on physical medium as that is the only way that they can get money for what they do.

As for old school kit, well I have source material that is over 50 years old and it still works just fine, I wonder if the latest and greatest one box solutions will still be usable in 50 years time?

I understand that our musical listening can be done through a one box solution, a box that can be everything that we want it to be, but whilst it will be the answer to many people's prayers it wouldn't be the answer for everyone.

Dinosaurs Rule!!

It's not big, or clever, struggling with the large ancient formats, when the sound quality cannot be as good as a super high res file sent through a state of the art DAC. Dinosaurs died out and they aint coming back. I'm trying my best to not sound condescending, or patronising, but I really don't understand this Luddite mentality, where people are still fixated with old, poorer quality formats. Weird. If Madonna recorded an album in a new recording studio, using top class mics and mixing desk and recording kit, this album's information would not survive the pressing process and would be an approximation of the recording. The same album represented as a 24 bit /96kHz file, would be MUCH closer to the original recording than the now 70 year old format. The specs are fact and cannot be argued with. People might prefer the ritual of vinyl and the tactility and the sleeve artwork and smell etc. but the fact is, it cannot and doesn't sound as good as a modern process.

'As for old school kit, well I have source material that is over 50 years old and it still works just fine, I wonder if the latest and greatest one box solutions will still be usable in 50 years time?'

We'll obviously need to wait 50 years. It doesn't make any sense deriding a new way of working, just because an old one is still around. No logic in that. HIFI, like most things, is about the improvement of a science, or technology, not looking to the past with rose tinted glasses. Progress is what drives our species and society and I do feel many are just set in their ways and fear change. I'm old but relish change and progress. I have an Audiolab Omnia and a pair of QA speakers. There would be ZERO benefit selling this stuff and buying a record player and investing in these huge annoying records. It baffles me why anyone would do this. I guess it's fashion and a status symbol, but not one I want to get involved with.

 

[Jasonovich]

"The taste from different coffee and the sound from different HiFi, share a common cord, they're both subjective."

I have reached a lovely place in life where I like the coffee I make (and buy); the wine I buy; and the various HiFi and tv/theatre installations that I've got.

Notwithstanding that, I expect I'll:

1. buy a WiiM Pro Plus (50% needed / 50% upgrade to a "one box");
2. buy a WiiM Amp (100% whim (pardon the pun) just to give it a go); and
3. look for a second hand set of white Neat Alpha Iotas (50% whim; 50% so I can move the Dali's to a second system).

But like MP, I've been threw many many iterations, and now get enough from Sonos for tv/theatre and office/bedside listening; am happy with my one box solution (Naim Uniti Lite) and enjoy the Primaluna set up (mainly due to the story behind it).

Again, like MP, I'd have happily have gone straight to a one box solution (Lyngdorf comes to mind)!

Something weird has happened. I know I am a serial upgrader but I think I'm cured of my addiction.
My Adams, Atoll, Focal, Singxer, Eversolo and Dalis are all amazing sounding "instruments", any upgrade would be incremental. I was thinking the Gustards for the EverSolo but I thought nah, I'm enjoying my music why change it?

My AV system has some good actors, it's a shame, they're amplifying the drama from Netflix specials but in isolation they make excellent music, notwithstanding; for now, they're holding the AV front admirably.

 

[Jasonovich]

It's not big, or clever, struggling with the large ancient formats, when the sound quality cannot be as good as a super high res file sent through a state of the art DAC. Dinosaurs died out and they aint coming back. I'm trying my best to not sound condescending, or patronising, but I really don't understand this Luddite mentality, where people are still fixated with old, poorer quality formats. Weird. If Madonna recorded an album in a new recording studio, using top class mics and mixing desk and recording kit, this album's information would not survive the pressing process and would be an approximation of the recording. The same album represented as a 24 bit /96kHz file, would be MUCH closer to the original recording than the now 70 year old format. The specs are fact and cannot be argued with. People might prefer the ritual of vinyl and the tactility and the sleeve artwork and smell etc. but the fact is, it cannot and doesn't sound as good as a modern process.

'As for old school kit, well I have source material that is over 50 years old and it still works just fine, I wonder if the latest and greatest one box solutions will still be usable in 50 years time?'

We'll obviously need to wait 50 years. It doesn't make any sense deriding a new way of working, just because an old one is still around. No logic in that. HIFI, like most things, is about the improvement of a science, or technology, not looking to the past with rose tinted glasses. Progress is what drives our species and society and I do feel many are just set in their ways and fear change. I'm old but relish change and progress. I have an Audiolab Omnia and a pair of QA speakers. There would be ZERO benefit selling this stuff and buying a record player and investing in these huge annoying records. It baffles me why anyone would do this. I guess it's fashion and a status symbol, but not one I want to get involved with.

Nostalgia is an aphrodisiac for some HiFi enthusiast and vinyl is a way of rekindling the passion, some genuinely find it preferable to digital though, the irony is that almost all vinyl music production is done via digital processes.
I'm a digital guy, I moved away from turntables to CD players and finally to high end DACs.
I get the artwork and covers, fungi smelling carbon casing 😊 but modern streamers can replicate that and more.
On Nativedsd you can download in pdf format the album art covers and artist biography, this adds some emotional context to the music.

 

[podknocker]

Nostalgia is an aphrodisiac for some HiFi enthusiast and vinyl is a way of rekindling the passion, some genuinely find it preferable to digital though, the irony is that almost all vinyl music production is done via digital processes.
I'm a digital guy, I moved away from turntables to CD players and finally to high end DACs.
I get the artwork and covers, fungi smelling carbon casing 😊 but modern streamers can replicate that and more.
On Nativedsd you can download in pdf format the album art covers and artist biography, this adds some emotional context to the music.

Haha! I don't miss the old paper sleeves and I'm not nostalgic about books either. The printed format is all we had. We don't need this now. I like newer and better things. Having radio, TV, films, music, books online is amazing. I don't have the space to keep physical formats and I won't be trying to achieve this in the time I have left. People bang on about the internet dropping, but it comes back after a few minutes, if it fails. Your house burning down with all yer books and records can't be replaced.

 

[DougK1]

Pod and Jason all you are expressing are your own personal opinions, banging on about DSD, hi-res, streamers, cables, etc. That's all they are, opinions, and are about as interesting as mine are... each to their own I say.

 

[Revolutions]

As much as I think products like the WiiM amp are really cool & could open up hifi to lots of disillusioned Sonos users, the £300 price tag means loads of them will be in landfill as soon as the DAC isn’t up to the latest lossless standards.

I don’t think it’s so much the one box solutions as it is low cost products - people handed down old Bose surround sound dvd players to less worthy family members & they still get used.

That said, good products still get used even when they’re obsolete as per current fashions.

 

[podknocker]

Pod and Jason all you are expressing are your own personal opinions, banging on about DSD, hi-res, streamers, cables, etc. That's all they are, opinions, and are about as interesting as mine are... each to their own I say.

Yes, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but opinions are not facts. State of the art recordings though state of the art DACs sound better than the same music on LP records. My opinion is also a fact. Being factually correct is not being arrogant, it's just an attempt to convey something real. I'm not offended if people disagree with me, but many people do get offended and get on the defensive, when their opinions and experiences are challenged. It's not very grown up, in my opinion.

 

[DougK1]

Yes, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but opinions are not facts. State of the art recordings though state of the art DACs sound better than the same music on LP records. My opinion is also a fact.

You even have a hate against CDs, it's not limited to just vinyl.

 

[podknocker]

You even have a hate against CDs, it's not limited to just vinyl.

You don't understand me at all. I LOVE CDs and still own hundreds, but they are more faff than streaming. Fact: CD sounds better than LP records. Fact: Streaming sounds as good, or better than CD, with the right service and is less faff than ANY music format in history. I can double click on over 80 million tunes and listen within a second. Try doing that with CD, never mind a large, ancient 70 year old format, such as LP records. This is the entrenched Luddite attitude I bang on about. People on here WANT to buy 12" LP records and not streamers. It's crackers.

 

[Al ears]

You don't understand me at all. I LOVE CDs and still own hundreds, but they are more faff than streaming. Fact: CD sounds better than LP records. Fact: Streaming sounds as good, or better than CD, with the right service and is less faff than ANY music format in history.

So do I. Mine are ripped to FLAC and played back from a hard drive / riped to my DAP and then they are used in my car..... Or sold

 

[Revolutions]

It’s really quite something to see the word ‘fact’ be used multiple times alongside a subjective term like ‘better’. Unfortunately it renders the entire argument as complete bs.

 

[podknocker]

I would like a new BMW if a better

It’s really quite something to see the word ‘fact’ be used multiple times alongside a subjective term like ‘better’. Unfortunately it renders the entire argument as complete bs.

I would argue a new BMW is a better car, in all areas, than a BMW made in the 70s. Some may find the older engineering more interesting and long for those 'halcyon days', when they grew up with old muck and engineering. I think that's BS. The fear of change and progress with some people, is startling. A ribeye steak IS better than a cheap 50p burger, even if some people prefer the burger. It's astounding why some people would not want all areas of their lives, including music, improved upon.