Question Is expensive hifi worth it today?

[Al ears]

"I'm a reviewer for Soundstage Ultra and before that for Hi-Fi News"

I guess Birdseed007 is not your real name so can i ask who you are ?

Due to community rules he cannot disclose that information, unlike some that appear to have gotten away with it..

 

[plastic penguin]

Due to community rules he cannot disclose that information, unlike some that appear to have gotten away with it..

No, but he can PM him.

 

[plastic penguin]

Anyway....

As @Al ears and other long-termers should remember, over a 2 year period of trying to successfully upgrade the A65+, I home & shop demoed squillions of amps (or felt like it) within my budget of £700.

Most had their merits but I found out once you go over that £1000 threshold, amps had better control over speakers, regardless of wattage, and realism of the soundstage was audible. I lucked out as dealers were offering clearance prices on Leema, otherwise I would have a Creek Evo 2 or a Roksan Kandy K2 in my rack.

 

[Al ears]

No, but he can PM him.

that he can indeed

 

[nopiano]

"I'm a reviewer for Soundstage Ultra and before that for Hi-Fi News"

I guess Birdseed007 is not your real name so can i ask who you are ?

It doesn’t take long on Soundstage Ultra to find a picture of a nice chap with Naim amps and a Michell turntable. Just sayin’!

 

[plastic penguin]

Good idea but i was hoping he would respond via this forum !

Naim Audio, Part One: How I Was Introduced to the Brand and a New Range

Apart from being British (debatable given their association with Focal speakers), I just can't find any love for Naim. Rather have an old entry-level Arcam over Naim amplification anyday.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

Apart from being British (debatable given their association with Focal speakers), I just can't find any love for Naim. Rather have an old entry-level Arcam over Naim amplification anyday.

I have never actually heard a Naim system but he mentions he uses them with ATC SCM40's.

I have read countless times that the active versions surpass the passives no matter what Amp(s) are used.

Maybe Naim should of linked up with ATC to create a truly British brand although i an aware ATC make amplifiers too.

 

[plastic penguin]

I have never actually heard a Naim system but he mentions he uses them with ATC SCM40's.

I have read countless times that the active versions surpass the passives no matter what Amp(s) are used.

Maybe Naim should of linked up with ATC to create a truly British brand although i an aware ATC make amplifiers too.

Doesn't matter if ATC make amps. PMC are (or were) the UK distributor for Bryston, yet PMC make amps as well as actives.

 

[Birdseed007]

SR91, happy to PM with you if you like but am keen to not break any rules here if the good people of What Hi-Fi are letting me post here. To be honest I know Ketan Bharadia the Technical editor at What Hi-Fi and we always seem to end up lunching together and hanging out at industry events - top chap! I was telling him much to his amusement that I have a very good friend who only buys and reads one hi-fi mag and that's 'What Hi-Fi', as I put it he evidently prefers it to reading my cr*p which we had a good laugh about! (In truth he does read my stuff but only cos it's me, most of the stuff Soundstage Ultra covers is a bit beyond his budget)

I've always believed that while Hi-Fi News, What Hi-Fi, Soundstage, Hi-Fi+ and Stereonet etc on paper might seem like competitors, in reality we're all trying to do exactly the same thing - engage people with music and audio. We all share a common passion and we all want to see more and more people buy and enjoy great systems to replay their music. That way everybody wins - from the manufacturers to the customers and of course the magazines and websites. Fortunately covid has caused people to look towards their homes again for pleasure, to start buying vinyl records again and to invest more in hi-fi - that's a good thing in my book.

It always amuses me that in the 1960's there was supposedly great rivalry between the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, but in reality the two groups were well acquainted with each other and frequently drank together in the same clubs and bars. Hi-Fi journalism is no different and we'll all be sharing a beer come the Bristol show!

Re: my use of passive ATC's that was for a couple of reasons. Firstly as a reviewer running active loudspeakers would complicate me reviewing amps, secondly I have used Naim amps for decades and just like what they do. I do agree though that if assembling a system from scratch and without any reviewer considerations then active are probably the way to go and they will slightly outperform the passives. I did do that very comparison (active v passive) on the SCM50's for Soundstage which was an interesting comparison and while the passives did some things very well indeed, the actives represented far better value for money.

Birdseed007

 

[nopiano]

Maybe Naim should of linked up with ATC to create a truly British brand although i an aware ATC make amplifiers too.

And Naim are owned by Focal, one of the largest volume speaker manufacturers in the world. Or maybe they share a parent company. I lose track.

ATC had a driver manufacturing and studio foundation, whereas Naim had a domestic Hifi approach well documented in the article linked above.

 

[davidf]

Apart from being British (debatable given their association with Focal speakers), I just can't find any love for Naim. Rather have an old entry-level Arcam over Naim amplification anyday.

I much prefer the old stuff, like the 72/140 pre/power, and old style Nait 2. I preferred the leaner, more raw sounding Naim to what nowadays sounds like a tarted up Marantz.

 

[plastic penguin]

I much prefer the old stuff, like the 72/140 pre/power, and old style Nait 2. I preferred the leaner, more raw sounding Naim to what nowadays sounds like a tarted up Marantz.

Way too raw for my pallet. I've tried to like the brand but to no avail.

I've home and shop demoed so many times with the older 'I' and Italic versions, even owned a CD5i, and it's too in your face. Okay for short listening sessions, otherwise... thumbs down

 

[Birdseed007]

Way too raw for my pallet. I've tried to like the brand but to no avail.

I've home and shop demoed so many times with the older 'I' and Italic versions, even owned a CD5i, and it's too in your face. Okay for short listening sessions, otherwise... thumbs down

You know what - that's OK! You've done absolutely the right thing, had a listen objectively with an open mind and decided it just isn't for you and that's a perfectly valid position. Actually I think the earlier poster is right - Naim have gradually moved away from the somewhat raw but very exciting presentation of their earlier gear and I suspect that people like you who didn't necessarily like Naim before will probably prefer the later Naim gear. Conversely those who loved 70's, 80's and 90's Naim might find the newer stuff a little too 'refined'.

One good reason for going to shows is to hear the various approaches taken by the different companies in pursuit of 'pure perfect sound'. There is simply no one brand that is definitively the best although if your aim is to get as close to live instruments in room as possible (which is my aim) then I think some brands are certainly front-runners - looking at you ATC... ;-)

Birdseed007

 

[plastic penguin]

You know what - that's OK! You've done absolutely the right thing, had a listen objectively with an open mind and decided it just isn't for you and that's a perfectly valid position. Actually I think the earlier poster is right - Naim have gradually moved away from the somewhat raw but very exciting presentation of their earlier gear and I suspect that people like you who didn't necessarily like Naim before will probably prefer the later Naim gear. Conversely those who loved 70's, 80's and 90's Naim might find the newer stuff a little too 'refined'.

One good reason for going to shows is to hear the various approaches taken by the different companies in pursuit of 'pure perfect sound'. There is simply no one brand that is definitively the best although if your aim is to get as close to live instruments in room as possible (which is my aim) then I think some brands are certainly front-runners - looking at you ATC... ;-)

Birdseed007

For me, it's what can I live with?

As I listen, on average, around 4 hours a day, if I had one of those earlier Naims I'd be popping painkillers most of the time. When I demoed a Nait 5i with RS6s the combo was chronic. After around 20 mins at moderate levels they physically gave me bonce ache. Never experienced that before or since

 

[Emark600]

I would say generally the higher the budget the better the hifi but if you can be happy with what you got, then that's all you need.

The new Naim NSC 222 streaming pre amplifier is out now and it costs a whopping £5700. Why anyone would buy it is beyond me. I'm content with what I have.

I had a listening session with this, the power supply and power amp, and all NAIM interconnects, and it’s pretty damn impressive tbh, I think the whole set up justifies the £15k ish price tag, I am very very tempted, the build quality is awesome. And the purpose built stand too,
have I purchased it, not at the mo, but never say never…

 

[davidf]

Plenty of options for that price.

 

[jjbomber]

I much prefer the old stuff, like the 72/140 pre/power, and old style Nait 2. I preferred the leaner, more raw sounding Naim to what nowadays sounds like a tarted up Marantz.

Purely out of interest David, which modern manufacturer sounds like the old Naims?

 

[davidf]

Purely out of interest David, which modern manufacturer sounds like the old Naims?

I’d actually look at quality Class D amps for that sort of sound nowadays, as most Class AB amps tend to have some “character” somewhere in its frequency range.. Bel Canto is similar, and will have better bass extension and control, and a cleaner top end, and maybe Primare, which will give a sweeter top end.

 

[hifi]

Wow, this really surprises me. I've said a few times on here that I really don't like Wharfedale speakers and obviously this is a subjective thing but I report what I hear. I've had 3 pairs: Diamond 9.1, Diamond 220 and Denton 80th anniversary. Then I was vaguely interested in the new Diamond floor standers and went to hear some in RS. (You might ask why I bothered if I'd had such negative experience with Wharfedale and you'd be right to ask). They sounded very average and nothing like as good as Focal Chora 806 which I nearly bought that day. In the end I bought nothing that day.

I recently got 12.3 and they amaze me every time i turn them on they are brilliant go and have a listen too them.

 

[hifi]

Wow, this really surprises me. I've said a few times on here that I really don't like Wharfedale speakers and obviously this is a subjective thing but I report what I hear. I've had 3 pairs: Diamond 9.1, Diamond 220 and Denton 80th anniversary. Then I was vaguely interested in the new Diamond floor standers and went to hear some in RS. (You might ask why I bothered if I'd had such negative experience with Wharfedale and you'd be right to ask). They sounded very average and nothing like as good as Focal Chora 806 which I nearly bought that day. In the end I bought nothing that day.

gary do you have a link too the group test i cant find it?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

which modern manufacturer sounds like the old Naims?

We are a dealer for Naim Audio and Bel Canto Design. Contrary to what has been said Bel Canto Design don't have a similar presentation to Naim Audio's Chrome or Olive products.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I had a listening session with this, the power supply and power amp, and all NAIM interconnects, and it’s pretty damn impressive tbh, I think the whole set up justifies the £15k ish price tag, I am very very tempted, the build quality is awesome. And the purpose built stand too,
have I purchased it, not at the mo, but never say never…

At their current RRP 's Naim Audio's new NSC 222 (£5700), NPX 300 (£5700) and New Classic NAP 250 (£5700) add up to £17100.

I agree in that and right from the off in the main the performance of the NSC 222/NPX 300/New Classic NAP 250 was and is damn impressive. Recently we’ve been able to bring in and inject some sharpness to the NSC 222/NPX 300, New Classic NAP 250 combination which has helped invigorate and elevated the truly superb performance of this trio to sound absolutely thrilling

 

[Emark600]

At their current RRP 's Naim Audio's new NSC 222 (£5700), NPX 300 (£5700) and New Classic NAP 250 (£5700) add up to £17100.

I agree in that and right from the off in the main the performance of the NSC 222/NPX 300/New Classic NAP 250 was and is damn impressive. Recently we’ve been able to bring in and inject some sharpness to the NSC 222/NPX 300, New Classic NAP 250 combination which has helped invigorate and elevated the truly superb performance of this trio to sound absolutely thrilling

Dealer offered me the three, plus all interconnects for £15k, I would have asked for the stand too….

 

[davidf]

We are a dealer for Naim Audio and Bel Canto Design. Contrary to what has been said Bel Canto Design don't have a similar presentation to Naim Audio's Chrome or Olive products.

It’s ok - I wouldn’t agree with anything you say either.

I’d take a Bel Canto EX1 running Roon over a three box Naim - one box, cheaper. and preferable soundwise.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Dealer offered me the three, plus all interconnects for £15k, I would have asked for the stand too….

Just clarifying the RRP's.

Btw, getting something at a reduced price and getting optimum performance is something that doesn't necessarily go hand in hand.