is bi-amping an upgrade?

[Bodfish]

flakmonkey: OK Ill put it in my own words:

Basically for a linear system, which applies to a high degree to amps and cables at audible frequencies, then bi-wiring and passive bi-amping cannot make a difference (superposition principle). If you want to get into the physics feel free

Passive biamping and biwiring fall into the same category.

Active biamping, using external crossovers can and will give some benefit but there may be more cost effective ways of getting a bigger leap in performance than doing this.

This is science, not hifi myth

Well, when you put it like that,,,I still disagree with you.

 

[Anonymous]

Like everything with regards to hifi there is a lot of subjectivity. If you sense a benefit and are willing to shell out the money, go for it. Who am I to stop you?

There are lots of examples, interconnects, speaker cable, biwiring, biamping, naim black magic etc etc all of which are scientifically dubious and almost always fail in proper blind tests. Being the sciency type myself, thats proof enough to me that much of what is peddled is to separate joe public from their hard earned. I have tried various things over the years, and my findings support the science. So thats what I will stick with. I am sure most are able to do their own research using any search engine, 'superposition principle biamping' will turn up some interesting reading based in science which will present both side of the discussion.

I am not trying to upset anyone, but feel that its important that people do research before spending their money, which could be potentially large sums.

Feel free to disagree, its your choice at the end of the day.

 

[Bodfish]

Thanks, I will.

I don't think anyone has a problem with opinion, it's just the use of words like 'passive biamping cannot and does not give any benefit whatsoever' being presented a fact rather than an opinion or point of view. And what is 'Naim black magic' BTW?

So, FWIW, in my opinion and experience etc, bi-amping does make a difference. Lots of variables to take into account so go listen for yourself and make up your own mind yada yada yada.

Now, where did that Russ Andrews £16,000 speaker cable thread go?

 

[Anonymous]

Hifi is personal. The fact that biwiring and passive biamping cant make a discernable difference is a fact and is based in science, being a science nerd I treat that as fact until is is proven to be incorrect through experiments and controlled testing. No one has been able to present anything more than annecdotal evidence to me yet. Whether you hear a difference or not is largely down to expectation bias with most modifications. Blind test it sometime with some friends and see what your conclusions are. You may be suprised, you may not.

Naim was just one example, where there seems to be masses of upgrades available for ever diminishing returns and IMO that money would be better spent in other areas which would give bigger returns in sound quality for your investment. The black magic I refer to is the oft quoted thing of arranging your gear in a certain way and order because it sounds better. A lot of manufacturers do it, like I say Naim was just one that sprung to mind. Of course they are in business to make money and will do so wherever they can.

If you like what you hear from your system or a change to your system, then thats good. Enjoy it, but remember its not about how much you spend, what fancy gadget you have, its whether you are truley enjoying the music that matters.

 

[Big Chris]

Bodfish: So, FWIW, in my opinion and experience etc, bi-amping does make a difference.

Ditto.

And the reason I know I'm right? My Wife, who looks at me like I'm mad when I tell her about the new mains cable or interconnect or whatever, remarked at how different (and how much better) the stereo sounded when I added the P85.

 

[Bodfish]

Big Chris:

Bodfish: So, FWIW, in my opinion and experience etc, bi-amping does make a difference.

Ditto.

And the reason I know I'm right? My Wife, who looks at me like I'm mad when I tell her about the new mains cable or interconnect or whatever, remarked at how different (and how much better) the stereo sounded when I added the P85.

But Chris, that is still anecdotal and therefore not actual evidence

 

[jiggyjoe]

+1 here passive Bi-Amp makes a big difference with Arcam amps, wakes them up in terms of dynamics and drive.

superposition theory may come into effect more when Bi-Amping 2 way speakers horizontally, Because the tweeter draws so little power,

but not when Bi-Amping vertically.

And in the case of my Monitor Audio RX6, I Bi-amp by driving the tweeter and mid/bass with one amp, and the other bass driver with the other, significantly reducing the impedance load on the amps.

 

[carter]

jiggyjoe:

+1 here passive Bi-Amp makes a big difference with Arcam amps, wakes them up in terms of dynamics and drive.

superposition theory may come into effect more when Bi-Amping 2 way speakers horizontally, Because the tweeter draws so little power,

but not when Bi-Amping vertically.

And in the case of my Monitor Audio RX6, I Bi-amp by driving the tweeter and mid/bass with one amp, and the other bass driver with the other, significantly reducing the impedance load on the amps.

agree i used to bi amp horizontally and it sounded good but when i went vertical it was night and day the stereo imaging and clarity were excellent.

 

[Anonymous]

If passively biamping there is only one reason you are hearing a difference and that is because the two Arcam amps (A85 and P85) you are using will be giving slightly different gains. Try swapping the power to the tweeter and the integrated amp to the mid/bass and you'll hear its different again and probably for the worse.

Biamping vertically or horizontally makes no odds. If its passive with the same amps then it cannot make any difference. If you are using different amps on either config it will change how it sounds because you have upset the balance.

 

[carter]

flakmonkey:

If passively biamping there is only one reason you are hearing a difference and that is because the two Arcam amps (A85 and P85) you are using will be giving slightly different gains. Try swapping the power to the tweeter and the integrated amp to the mid/bass and you'll hear its different again and probably for the worse.

Biamping vertically or horizontally makes no odds. If its passive with the same amps then it cannot make any difference. If you are using different amps on either config it will change how it sounds because you have upset the balance.

identical amps,and there is a difference as people have commented on the improvment without even knowing i made the change..

im afraid science is all well and good but the best thing to do is get out there and have a listen

 

[bluebrazil]

so what would happen flakmomkey if you ran 4 mono amps in a bi-amping configuration, would the difference still be neglible ,or would it be dependent of the quality of the speakers original crossovers?

 

[Anonymous]

Ultimately I agree, if it sounds better to you and makes you happy then go for it. Thats part of what hifi is all about.

Spend your money how you like, it is yours at the end of the day. Just think carefully about what gains you want, and where it would be best spent is more what I am getting at.

If you believe passive biamping, bi-wiring, magic stones or placing your gear in a pentagram and lighting candles around it makes a difference, go for it. You wouldnt be alone, and it keeps the hifi companies in business.

 

[Anonymous]

bluebrazil:so what would happen flakmomkey if you ran 4 mono amps in a bi-amping configutation, would the difference still be the speakers crossovers?

There wouldnt be a noticable difference in sound 'quality' if you are passively biamping using 4 monos to if you were just running a single mono per channel. Use an active crossover and its a totally different ballgame entirely.

 

[bluebrazil]

guess that asks the question then of why some speakers have two sets of binding posts, surely it must be dependant on the quality of the crossover ( ergo speaker design )

 

[Anonymous]

bluebrazil:guess that asks the question then of why some speakers have two sets of binding posts, surely it must be dependant on the quality of the crossover ( ergo speaker design )

Customer demand...and industry pressure to sell more stuff...spend twice as much on cables and amps and we will give you somewhere to connect them to...

 

[Andrew Everard]

flakmonkey:If you believe passive biamping, bi-wiring, magic stones or placing your gear in a pentagram and lighting candles around it makes a difference, go for it. You wouldnt be alone, and it keeps the hifi companies in business.

I'm not aware of any hifi companies selling chalk or candles. But then neither am I aware of anyone quite as closed-minded as you seem to be. Could you please stop the 'sword of righteousness' act, and insulting other members, and live and let live?

 

[Anonymous]

EDITED BY MODS - Yet again discussing moderation, despite repeated warnings. User banned.

 

[Anonymous]

Bi-amping does make a difference.
I am not going to write an article about it, unless Andrew is prepared to pay for it!
The best results will be obtained by driving the high frequency with one amplifier and the bass with another.
However, please make sure that the amplifier is designed for bi-ampling i.e. has the preout and power-in, and is partnered with an identical amplifier or a matching power amp specifically designed for this purpose.

Bi-ampling is not a subsitute for an active system. Active systems are very different. In an active system the speaker drive units are directly coupled to the amplifer and the filtering is done at line level with active components. There is a much greater scope to tailor the filter response to the drive unit characteristics etc. etc.

 

[6th.replicant]

Big Chris:It was when I did it. A big leap in performance.

...
+1

 

[Gusboll]

I'm none the wiser on all this. If I just have a pre-amp, I ain't gonna hear 'owt. If I add a 70 watt power amp, I get music at whatever level or quality. If I add an extra power amp, do I not get an increased level or quality depending on the demands of the speakers?

 

[Thaiman]

Of course Bi-amping do make a different and , imo, is class as an upgrade.

however in my experience one excellent poweramp will out preform 2 good amps in Bi-amp mode.

 

[xtsili]

Thaiman:
Of course Bi-amping do make a different and , imo, is class as an upgrade.

however in my experience one excellent poweramp will out preform 2 good amps in Bi-amp mode.

So the issue then is how to use the AS700 as preamp given it does not have a pre out

 

[Andrew Everard]

xtsili:So the issue then is how to use the AS700 as preamp given it does not have a pre out

The simple answer is that you can't.

 

[xtsili]

Andrew Everard:
xtsili:So the issue then is how to use the AS700 as preamp given it does not have a pre out

The simple answer is that you can't.

Not even with this?

http://www.cyberselect.co.uk/product/1307

 

[xtsili]

flakmonkey:
Passive biamping cannot and does not give any benefit whatsoever, unless the amps you use are different and have different gains which will affect the overall balance of mid/bass/treble which is missing the point. Its another myth perpetuated to extract more money from people. Similar to biwring. Bigger gains can be had spending the money on sources or speakers.

The only way it can make a different is if you use an active crossover, which means speaker surgery to remove the existing one.

Read this for the more detailed reasons:
Or rather don't, as it contravenes House Rules - Mods

Note the difference between active and passive bi-amping and that the benefits of bi-amping described are for ACTIVE biamping only.

Yes I run accross various articles on this issue. Thanks flakmonkey