Is ATC SCM 19 speakers an all-rounder?

[Frank Harvey]

SteveR750:No, This is most easily measured by damping factor, which is the back impedance that the speaker coil "sees". It's one thing pushing the cone to the point in space to correspond with a transient (which is what your watts or rather current is doing for a given volume/voltage), and another to stop it overshooting. Usually manifested as tight and tuneful

Unfortunately, damping factor varies at different frequencies, so it can only be a guide, not a definitive measurement.

 

[SteveR750]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
SteveR750:No, This is most easily measured by damping factor, which is the back impedance that the speaker coil "sees". It's one thing pushing the cone to the point in space to correspond with a transient (which is what your watts or rather current is doing for a given volume/voltage), and another to stop it overshooting. Usually manifested as tight and tuneful

Unfortunately, damping factor varies at different frequencies, so it can only be a guide, not a definitive measurement.

SteveR750: Like al tech measurements though I doubt it's the only important parameter.

Yes I know

 

[Frank Harvey]

EDITED BY MODS for House Rules

 

[MattSPL]

FrankHarveyHiFi:MattSPL:If an amp has the power to drive a speaker, surely it has the power to control them? Are they not the same thing?
Unfortunately Matt, they are two very different things.

I realise its like BHP vs Torque - Watts vs current, but most well designed amplifier's of sufficient wattage(ATC recommends 50-300 watts) will be able to Control the speaker. Obviously if you want rock and roll volume level's, you need more power but that can be said about many speaker's. And some amplifiers won't gel as well as others do, but the point is, you don't need mega watts to drive ATC's.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think this is where there is a huge misunderstanding. I've never said you need mega watts to drive ATC's - you just need a fair few to get them to sing as they're intended to....

 

[SteveR750]

Personally I don't subscribe to the "they are so special they need something special to make them work properly" theory. It would seem that some amps work with them, and some don't; whatever their power or price, in just the same way that some amps sound great with some speakers and terrible with others. It's about system matching and your own ears. No disrespect to those in the trade, but I prefer to trust my ears than the opinion of sales people, and whilst the science bit which is undoubtedly only part of the 'story' is irrefutable; the rest however is merely opinion

To the above post, 120W is in my opinion "a fair few", and yet they probably indeed don't make them "sing". I'll not argue against that as I have not heard them, but the sciencey bit doesn't make any sense: either they need watts or they don't! I suspect the real reason is a lot more complicated than that.

 

[Frank Harvey]

It is about system matching, and the ATC's need a little more careful matching than most speakers due to the fact they need more current than most to perform well.

I too trust my own ears, hence my recommendations AGAIN, EDITED BY MODS. I don't do it for fun!

The current output of an amplifier is far more important than the power output. Watts per channel is a rough idea of how loud an amplifier is, and nothing to do with it's current output or ability to control speakers.

 

[SteveR750]

I partly agree and partly disagree.

Watts = Current I x Voltage V

V=I x Resistance (or impedance)

so watts output is important as it is directly related to current capability of an amp, however, the issue is how manufacturers measure power output and market their products. A poorly designed damp may indeed be capable of generating 100W into a constant 8ohm load, lets assumes a 20V setting resulting in 5A of current. Now if a passage of music comes along that coincides with a frequency where there is s dip in the speakers impedance to say 4ohms, then on order to maintain the same loudness of 20V a current of 10A is required. Not many amps are capable of double the power into half the impedance because of limitations in the power supply and output stage. My point is that power IS a valid measurement, so long as you know what it is at various loads (and most manufacturers quote power into 8 and 4 ohms loads so you get an idea).

 

[Frank Harvey]

No problems there, but just because an amplifier states a rating into 4ohms, it doesn't mean A/ it is any good at driving and controlling a 4ohm loudspeaker B/ that the amplifier is actually capable of that 4ohm rated power output in the real world.

Almost all amplifiers will state a 4ohm power rating, but many of them couldn't drive a 4ohm speaker if their 230v lives depended on it.

 

[Anonymous]

Have to disagree with the idea that ATC SCM 19s are "all arounders". Don't get me wrong, I recently spent a few weeks with some ATCs and I was very impressed. They are truly fantastic speakers and I can see why recording studios commonly use them. However, the SCM 11s and 19s are down 6db at 54hz, and to me they sound like it. The have wonderfully clean articulate bass, but it's underwhelming compared to some other speakers. For a speaker to be a true "all arounder", it needs to be slighly more full range than these ATC offerings.

I think better all arounders are Dynaudio Focus 140 & Excite 32, MA RX6, Neat Motive 1 & 2, Totem Hawks & Forest, Usher Tiny Dancer, PMC FB1i & TB2i. All these speakers are more jack of all trades than ATC speakers. ATC speakers are more purposeful. They are designed for extreme accuracy and neutrality, not for making everything sound good. The speakers I've listed, work with almost any type of amp, and sound good with almost any recording. Compare that to ATC which must be carefully matched with an amp and will make some recordings unlistenable.

Again, I love the ATCs. I think the SCM 11 easily competes with monitors costing double and even triple, but those monitors aren't "all arounders" either.

 

[Anonymous]

Have to disagree with the idea that ATC SCM 19s are "all arounders". Don't get me wrong, I recently spent a few weeks with some ATCs and I was very impressed. They are truly fantastic speakers and I can see why recording studios commonly use them. However, the SCM 11s and 19s are down 6db at 54hz, and to me they sound like it. The have wonderfully clean articulate bass, but it's underwhelming compared to some other speakers. For a speaker to be a true "all arounder", it needs to be slighly more full range than these ATC offerings.

I think better all arounders are Dynaudio Focus 140 & Excite 32, MA RX6, Neat Motive 1 & 2, Totem Hawks & Forest, Usher Tiny Dancer, PMC FB1i & TB2i. All these speakers are more jack of all trades than ATC speakers. ATC speakers are more purposeful. They are designed for extreme accuracy and neutrality, not for making everything sound good. The speakers I've listed, work with almost any type of amp, and sound good with almost any recording. Compare that to ATC which must be carefully matched with an amp and will make some recordings unlistenable.

Again, I love the ATCs. I think the SCM 11 easily competes with monitors costing double and even triple, but those monitors aren't "all arounders" either.

Are the 19,s the best all rounder of the passive atc's ?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi FATS 2828

Are you missing ATC?

Btw, i believe SCM40's are ATC's finest VFM passive monitors

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

Are the 19,s the best all rounder of the passive atc's ?

I'd say so FATS. There's just something about the 19's that gels for me - and I'm not the only one who thinks that here. They seem to be far more listenable with a wide range of music due to being more forgiving of lesser recorded material, which could possibly be put down to not having a dedicated mid dome driver, but then again, the SL bass driver is no slouch.

With the SCM20 being similar in many ways, you could even say that they might be a better all rounder, but I haven't done the A/B, so I couldn't say for certain. If I was to choose one for myself, it'd be the SCM20, but that would be ignoring costs. For outright value, the SCM19's would win.

 

[hoopsontoast]

The gems in the line up are the SCM7 and SCM19 IMO. For a smaller room, the 7's do all of what all the others in the range do without the disadvantages, the integration of the drive units, soundstage and sheer amount of abuse they can take is staggering! :rofl:

They are IMO the best new speaker you can buy under £1k (as long as your room is not too big).

The SCM19's are really good, and better IMO than the 11's/40's and with a suitable amp, could provide all the depth in the bass department that I would ever need in a 'normal UK living room'. They dont have quite the integration and delacy of the 7's but bass dynamics and sheer headroom are hard to beat if you need higher SPL's.

They are however very fussy with regards to amplification, as they really do need an amp that delivers a good amount of current. 'The Cure - Same deep water as you' with the Bryston Pre/Power through the 19's is possibly the best I have heard it. Although I would wager that the Active 50's would be awsome, I have yet to have a long demo of them, only heard them brifely at shows.

The main downside of the 19 is the tweeter, the same Vifa unit used in all the 'entry' range, is a very good driver, but a £20 unit that measures very well can only go so far. I would guess the SCM20 may have a big advantage over the 19 in this respect, and may well be one of the best bookshelf designs regardless if you like what ATC brings to the party. I would love to hear a pair at some point!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi FATS 2828

Are you missing ATC?

Btw, i believe SCM40's are ATC's finest VFM passive monitors

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Parts of them, a 19's re-visit is still a consideration. They appear to be the one that differs from the atc herd. :?

 

[Anonymous]

so what features should have an amplifier to be a good match for the ATC SCM 19 ?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Nothing too brash, as this can make them sound a little harsh, and plenty of current and power. Their own SIA2-150 is an ideal candidate, naturally.

 

[Anonymous]

David, would you agree with this statement ? (I quote from Internet) :

As a general guideline, it is recommended to use an amplifier

delivering 50% more power than the speaker's average ("RMS") power

(source : http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/temas/powerhandling.htm )

 

[hoopsontoast]

You know thats talking about PA aplications... :rant:

 

[MUSICRAFT]

so what features should have an amplifier to be a good match for the ATC SCM 19 ?

Hi galone

What amplifier, source component/s and (if you're not already using SCM19 monitors) speakers are you using?

What do you generally listen to?

The size of your room?

Your listening distance?

Your general listening level?

Price range?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

David, would you agree with this statement ? (I quote from Internet) :

As a general guideline, it is recommended to use an amplifier

delivering 50% more power than the speaker's average ("RMS") power

(source : http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/temas/powerhandling.htm )

I wouldn't say that one rule will suit every situation as there's too many variables playing their part. I've always said that a good quality speaker will always respond well to more amplification, even if it does far exceed that of the speaker's RMS rating.

 

[Anonymous]

they can even be pretty too, i recently saw pictures of some that the owner had rubbed with t-cut(!) and car-polish(!!), and the results were very suprising!

they did look great! sorry for the hijack, but i can anyone link it. i can find it in search

Matt

 

[Craig M.]

they can even be pretty too, i recently saw pictures of some that the owner had rubbed with t-cut(!) and car-polish(!!), and the results were very suprising!

they did look great! sorry for the hijack, but i can anyone link it. i can find it in search

Matt

not sure if the pics of the polished 19s are still available, here are some scm40s with the same polished finish. http://atcforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=636

 

[Anonymous]

thats the one. thankyou

matt

 

[alchemist 1]

Very smart. 8)