Is ATC SCM 19 speakers an all-rounder?

[Craig M.]

good post matt, ime speakers that have a low impedance are harder to control. i know my cousins c.a.640 finds my 19s easier then some dynaudio audience 42s i tried to sell him a while back. they nearly killed his amp.

i think atcs don't dip below 6 ohms, which is easy for most amps to deal with.

 

[jaxwired]

Have to disagree with the idea that ATC SCM 19s are "all arounders". Don't get me wrong, I recently spent a few weeks with some ATCs and I was very impressed. They are truly fantastic speakers and I can see why recording studios commonly use them. However, the SCM 11s and 19s are down 6db at 54hz, and to me they sound like it. The have wonderfully clean articulate bass, but it's underwhelming compared to some other speakers. For a speaker to be a true "all arounder", it needs to be slighly more full range than these ATC offerings.

I think better all arounders are Dynaudio Focus 140 & Excite 32, MA RX6, Neat Motive 1 & 2, Totem Hawks & Forest, Usher Tiny Dancer, PMC FB1i & TB2i. All these speakers are more jack of all trades than ATC speakers. ATC speakers are more purposeful. They are designed for extreme accuracy and neutrality, not for making everything sound good. The speakers I've listed, work with almost any type of amp, and sound good with almost any recording. Compare that to ATC which must be carefully matched with an amp and will make some recordings unlistenable.

Again, I love the ATCs. I think the SCM 11 easily competes with monitors costing double and even triple, but those monitors aren't "all arounders" either.

 

[MattSPL]

I ran a couple of test cd's to set my sub up when i got my scm19's.

Various frequency sweeps and test tones.

Firstly, i played the tones through the scm19's without a sub. I did not have an SPL meter but i trust my ear's.

My scm19's will play 25hz and upwards when placed about 20cm off the rear wall. Obviously their SPL output at 25 hz isn't as high as further up the frequency range, but by the time i reached the 35hz test tone, the level was flat from there on up.

This was proved again by having to set my Rel Strata 5 sub at its minimum 16hz setting, this then allowing its 12db per octave crossover to gradually roll off the sub up into the 30hz region.

This can be tested by playing a familiar piece of music through the SUB ONLY. You will hear plenty of output at frequencies above where your dial is set.

 

[jaxwired]

All I can say is get a pair of Dynaudio Contour S1.4s and do some A/B listening against your SCM 19s. There is a dramatic difference in bass performance. The contour specs say -3db at 40hz. To me the Dyns sound rich lush and full and the bass is clean, not boomy. The ATCs on the other hand sound reserved and controlled when reproducing bass in the 35hz to 55hz region. I'm not knocking it. It's excellent clean bass, but it's way off what I would call full rich bass performance.

 

[Craig M.]

jax, i think those speakers you mentioned are only allrounders if you don't mind them playing music the way they see fit, not the way it's actually meant to sound.

the flip side of your dyns, much as i like them (and i really do), is to call them overbearing and in your face. accurate they are not. in the end, personal preference comes into it, but i think atcs treat everything the same.

and as for bass response, no they are not as full in the bass as some speakers, they are too accurate for that, but out of the 600 albums i own, i'd say around a handful have bass low enough to suggest the 19s could do to go lower.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There is only one way if things are to be done accurately, but this proves that in the real world, we don't all like accurate. My point proven again that there is no one 'single solution'.

One thing I would add though, is that the likes of the entry level SCM range can only be as accurate as their budget allows - if this wasn't the case there would be no need for SCM100 etc. It's just that the ATC's are more accurate than others at their price point.

(for the record, I love the ATC speakers, with one exception, but I do appreciate that there are alternatives, hence, my comments)

 

[MattSPL]

I have to agree, i think it would be hard to find a more accurate or fuller sounding speaker than the scm19 in its price/size range.

If you add more bass, you get an unbalanced sound that is no longer accurate.

Obviously a bigger speaker will give a fuller, bigger sound but in proportion to the rest of the frequency range.

Only when listening to Drum & Bass or organ music would the 19's need a little more depth. But so would any speaker except one the size of a coffin box.

 

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, unless you happen to have been in the recording studio and have a excellent audio memory you're not going to know what accurate is nor how a recording was meant to sound.

Domestic speakers all to a greater or lesser degree have an effect on the sound, because they are designed with the domestic situation in mind. That is why studio monitors fail in the home, partly because most are designed for near-field listening and partly because they are designed to be absolutely truthful to the sound of the studio.

Therefore, the Dynaudios and the ATCs may be closer to the intention of the recording engineer, but neither you nor she/he are going to know.

 

[SteveR750]

and a room interacts so much with speakers that no pair sounds the same in two different rooms. To be honest demoing speakers anywhere other than your home is almost a waste of time, as even an A-B comparison will change in a different room. Moving house can be traumatic in this respect!

 

[MattSPL]

In some cases, you just know what sounds right and wrong. Or real or not. When a speaker/system makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, you know thats sounding right.

And in my experience with ported, transmission line and sealed box enclosures, you have to worry about the room far less with a sealed box design like the ATC entry series. Obviously, you will get mid and high frequency reflections if the room has plain flat surfaces. This is the case with any speaker.

But out of all the rooms and speaker combinations ive ever tried, it was lumpy boomy bass that always caused the main problems as it overpowers everything. The scm19 is the first speaker ive owned that had a smooth response from lows to highs without any nasty loud room interactions common with a porrted loudspeakers tuned port frequency.

 

[cse]

Do the SCM 11's partner the Roksan Caspian series 1 amp well? I would be interested to know, especially as there seems to be reservations regarding the Kandy range.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

cse:
Do the SCM 11's partner the Roksan Caspian series 1 amp well? I would be interested to know, especially as there seems to be reservations regarding the Kandy range.

Hi cse

Yes the SCM11's do. The Caspian's quality of power and performance is better than the Kandy.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[SteveR750]

MUSICRAFT:cse:

Do the SCM 11's partner the Roksan Caspian series 1 amp well? I would be interested to know, especially as there seems to be reservations regarding the Kandy range.

Hi cse

Yes the SCM11's do. The Caspian's quality of power and performance is better than the Kandy.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hang on I'm confused now! I thought the reason why ther Kandy/ATC didn't 'work' was because of sonic compatibility, and nothing to do with power! The K2 isn't some wimpy little thing, and frankly if a Nait or a Cyrus 6VS can drive it so can a K2 surely! I was also under the general im pression that the ATCs are a relatively easy load with no significant impedance troughs across its frequency range....

Either way, I am intrigued enough to want to demo a pair of both 11s and 19s with the K2 (which is a definite keeper as it sounds great, is built like a tank and looks pretty neat to me eyes)

 

[Frank Harvey]

SteveR750:Hang on I'm confused now! I thought the reason why ther Kandy/ATC didn't 'work' was because of sonic compatibility, and nothing to do with power! The K2 isn't some wimpy little thing, and frankly if a Nait or a Cyrus 6VS can drive it so can a K2 surely! I was also under the general im pression that the ATCs are a relatively easy load with no significant impedance troughs across its frequency range....

The Nait 5i will drive the SCM11's, but once you replace it with a Nait XS you realise what the 5i can't do with the 11's. It has the power to drive them, but not control them. The 6vs will struggle too with it's limited power (especially in comparison to the 8vs) - I wouldn't recommend low sensitivity or low impedance speakers with the 6vs/6vs2. As far as I'm concerned, after hearing the SCM11's in numerous dems in store on the varios amplifiers we have available, I personally wouldn't recommend any amps below £1k with the SCM11's - not as a long term solution anyway. It just depends how well you want to hear the SCM11's sing - after all, I'd want to hear them as they were intended to sound.

The Capsian is quite a different kettle of fish to the Kandy with more current on tap, so shouldn't have a problem with the SCM11's. Whether you feel they're a match made in heaven is personal preference.

 

[Anonymous]

david

just out of interest what amp(between£1000-£2000) would you choose if you had the cyrus cd6se and the atc scm11's like i have that would match.(made in heaven)

as i have the roksan k2 amp would not adding the matching power amp improve the overall sound quality?

regards 80's boy

 

[MUSICRAFT]

SteveR750:MUSICRAFT:cse:

Do the SCM 11's partner the Roksan Caspian series 1 amp well? I would be interested to know, especially as there seems to be reservations regarding the Kandy range.

Hi cse

Yes the SCM11's do. The Caspian's quality of power and performance is better than the Kandy.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hang on I'm confused now! I thought the reason why ther Kandy/ATC didn't 'work' was because of sonic compatibility, and nothing to do with power! The K2 isn't some wimpy little thing, and frankly if a Nait or a Cyrus 6VS can drive it so can a K2 surely! I was also under the general im pression that the ATCs are a relatively easy load with no significant impedance troughs across its frequency range....

Either way, I am intrigued enough to want to demo a pair of both 11s and 19s with the K2 (which is a definite keeper as it sounds great, is built like a tank and looks pretty neat to me eyes)

Hi SteveR750

The Kandy Series does work with ATC speakers from a sonic and power point of view. The Kandy amplifers (which in the first instance can be improved by adding the power amplifier to bi-amp ) components in turn can be improved upon by the Caspian Series which in turn can also be improved upon by the Platinum Series. I would say the same is also true for most other manufacturers such as Naim with the Nait 5i, Nait XS, NAC 152 XS/ NAP 155 XS, NAC 202/ NAP 200, NAC 282/NAP 250 etc.

What i am saying is many amplifiers (as long as their power is sufficiently potent) are capable of partnering ATC's Entry Series passive monitors. It should not mean for anyone considering ATC passive monitors that an amplifier the size of a truck and one which is costly is required straightaway. If an amplifier change is not immediately feasible than use what is already available. ATC passive monitors (incorporating their superb drive units) with their stunning transparency can often help open up an existing system. Their massive performance potential can also handle many component changes later on.

Put it this way i have clients who are using ATC's passive monitors such as SCM19's and SCM40' with the classic NAD 3020 amplifirer and i also have clients using mini systems with SCM40's. These clients are happy with the results and also know more can be got out of the ATC's should they choose to do so by changing amplification etc.

ATC's drive units are very constant thereby allowing an amplifier to deliver an amplifier to deliver its full power all the time (prior to clipping).

The SCM11's are already superb but the SCM19's with the massive Super Linear Magnet Technology mid/bass drive units are a different ball game altoghter.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MattSPL]

There seems to be a lot of miss information surrounding low sensitivity speakers, especially ATC's as they are the current breed, and what amp's will and will not work.

There are many capable amplifiers under £1000 with the power to work well with ATC's. The Cambridge audio Azur 840A, a couple of Nad models, the Roksan K2 and Rotel Ra-1520 to name a few. If an amp has the power to drive a speaker, surely it has the power to control them? Are they not the same thing? Obviously source and cable selection will have their part to play in the overall sonic outcome.


EDITED BY MODS for House Rules - together with your signature that makes two warnings

 

[Anonymous]

matt , do you know anywhere in ireland that i could demo some decent amps ? roksan , leema , creek etc ?? ta..

 

[SteveR750]

MattSPL:
There seems to be a lot of miss information surrounding low sensitivity speakers, especially ATC's as they are the current breed, and what amp's will and will not work.

There are many capable amplifiers under £1000 with the power to work well with ATC's. The Cambridge audio Azur 840A, a couple of Nad models, the Roksan K2 and Rotel Ra-1520 to name a few. If an amp has the power to drive a speaker, surely it has the power to control them? Are they not the same thing? Obviously source and cable selection will have their part to play in the overall sonic outcome.
I would suggest along with the whathifi forum, to have a look on www.atcforums.co.uk for useful information on ATC speakers, electronics and related products.

No, This is most easily measured by damping factor, which is the back impedance that the speaker coil "sees". It's one thing pushing the cone to the point in space to correspond with a transient (which is what your watts or rather current is doing for a given volume/voltage), and another to stop it overshooting. Usually manifested as tight and tuneful bass. Obviously the mass of the speaker diaphragm plays a key part in this also, along with any resonance peaks etc. A ported design is more difficult to control in this respect, as their is less natural compression damping that closed box wold provide.

I would imagine that Cyrus, Naim to name but two amps have pretty high damping factors, given their lean "fast" bass sound. I know that the NAD 3020 and 3130 in their day were much better specced in this respect than most others hence their ability to sound punchy at high levels. FWIW the K2 has a damping factor of >110 which IIRC is pretty good. Like al tech measurements though I doubt it's the only important parameter.

 

[MattSPL]

Yes, Seven oaks in Dublin do Pioneer, Marantz, Roksan, Yamaha and a few others i think.

Cloney audio, also in dublin, do Arcam, Cyrus, Primare, Rotel, Yamaha and more.

Peats electronics in Dublin do Denon, Nad, Harman Kardon, Yamaha and more.

I don't think Leema are available and im not sure Creek are anymore. But Cloney audio is good for sourcing equipment.

There used to be a shop called Peter Dand, but i think it has closed down.

 

[Anonymous]

MattSPL:
Yes, Seven oaks in Dublin do Pioneer, Marantz, Roksan, Yamaha and a few others i think.

Cloney audio, also in dublin, do Arcam, Cyrus, Primare, Rotel, Yamaha and more.

Peats electronics in Dublin do Denon, Nad, Harman Kardon, Yamaha and more.

I don't think Leema are available and im not sure Creek are anymore. But Cloney audio is good for sourcing equipment.

There used to be a shop called Peter Dand, but i think it has closed down.
cheers matt do any of them have decent demo rooms ?

 

[MattSPL]

Cloney audio got a big renovation a couple of years ago so have good facilities.

Seven oaks just moved recently so im not sure what their premises are like.

And Pete's is pretty much a large open plan shop. Most of the HIfi is downstairs in the basement where they have a big room with various stuff on show.

 

[Frank Harvey]

80s boy: david

just out of interest what amp(between£1000-£2000) would you choose if you had the cyrus cd6se and the atc scm11's like i have that would match.(made in heaven)

They tend to sound best with their own integrated amplifier, the SIA2-150, so look out for a second hand one. It's previous rrp was around £2,200, so you may very well see used ones for around £1,500 (and you may pay even less for it's predecessor). You can also look at the Naim Nait XS, although for just under the £2k you can get the 152xs/155xs pre/power, and the current special offer of the Cyrus Pre XP and Power.

I have been misquoted previously as I have never said that the SCM11's sound dull - I said the pairing of the SCM11's with the Kandy K2 sounds dull.

as i have the roksan k2 amp would not adding the matching power amp improve the overall sound quality?

Adding a power amplifier can't improve quality. It can improve control, it can open up midrange, it can make for a more effortless soundstage, amongst other things. What an additional power amplifier will give you depends on whether the power amplifier has been designed for the ground up and offers better power delivery and quality, or whether it is a carbon copy of the integrated amplifier with the pre-amp section removed. If the power amplifier has a better transformer or output stage than it's integrated counterpart, then yes, it will be a noticeable improvement in quality and power delivery. But if it's just an integrated minus it's pre-amp, benefits might be minimal.

Personally, I would say a Caspian is going to give better results than a K2 amp with a K2 power amplifier.

Like I've said before, you onl have to try the SCM11's (or any speaker for that matter) with an amplifier that properly drives them to realise how many entry level or underpowered amplifiers are not really up to the job.

 

[Anonymous]

MattSPL:
Cloney audio got a big renovation a couple of years ago so have good facilities.

Seven oaks just moved recently so im not sure what their premises are like.

And Pete's is pretty much a large open plan shop. Most of the HIfi is downstairs in the basement where they have a big room with various stuff on show.
cheers matt , ill have to take a trip up to dublin soon , ta...

 

[Frank Harvey]

MattSPL:If an amp has the power to drive a speaker, surely it has the power to control them? Are they not the same thing?

Unfortunately Matt, they are two very different things.