Interconnect from CD player to amp which best on budget ?

[Thompsonuxb]

@LaurensB

That makes no sense.

If you are not sure how can you 'know'?

One can comment on one's own perception if there is a difference and that's it.

Which is why I say judge for yourself.

What's EE?

 

[Waxy]

... best value upgrade, although the effects are temporary.

 

[pauln]

@LaurensB

That makes no sense.

If you are not sure how can you 'know'?

One can comment on one's own perception if there is a difference and that's it.

Which is why I say judge for yourself.

What's EE?

The two states of mind of "not being sure" and "knowing" do not happen at the same time. One follows the other (but not inevitably) after further investigation.

EE = Electrical/Electronics Engineer.

 

[Laurens_B]

@LaurensB

That makes no sense.

If you are not sure how can you 'know'?

One can comment on one's own perception if there is a difference and that's it.

Which is why I say judge for yourself.

What's EE?

The two states of mind of "not being sure" and "knowing" do not happen at the same time. One follows the other (but not inevitably) after further investigation.

EE = Electrical/Electronics Engineer.

This, thanks.

 

[Andrewjvt]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a
I see what you mean with the placebo being real to the person experiencing it, that's fine. But it then has no value to anybody else, because if it's placebo, any other person will probably experience something else, maybe a different placebo, maybe none at all. So there is absolutely no value to anyone in sharing placebo experiences.
[only way in my mind to know for certain is to make all cables the same but tell people one is better quality than the other then if they say one gives better performance than the other we will all know for sure.
That way we can all afford the most expensive cables available for the price of cheapies]

 

[lindsayt]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a 'placebo' works, then it works; that's the point. If it seems to a person that something is better then it really is better.You may not see it this way but we are after all allowed to make our own decisions. For myself, I think that cables can make a difference to the (perceived) nature of the sound produced by audio equipment. A rule-of-thumb used to be approximately 10% of the value of the equipment to be spent on interconnects. I think this seems reasonable.

This 10% of the value of the equipment?

Is that 10% of the price I paid for it?

Or 10% of the price I'd get if I sold it all now?

Or 10% of the price I'd have had to pay if I'd bought it all new?

Or 10% of the price I'd have had to pay if I'd bought it all new, adjusted for inflation?

Or the lowest of any of these figures?

Or the highest?

Or the average?

For my main system, I paid a total of about £9500 for it. Does that mean I should have spent £950 on cables instead of the £25 I actually did spend?

Over the last 5 years I've spent about £900 on 1500 vinyl and CD albums. Do you think I'd have gotten more enjoyment from my money if I'd spent it on cables instead of music?

 

[drummerman]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a

I see what you mean with the placebo being real to the person experiencing it, that's fine. But it then has no value to anybody else, because if it's placebo, any other person will probably experience something else, maybe a different placebo, maybe none at all. So there is absolutely no value to anyone in sharing placebo experiences.

[only way in my mind to know for certain is to make all cables the same but tell people one is better quality than the other then if they say one gives better performance than the other we will all know for sure. That way we can all afford the most expensive cables available for the price of cheapies]

When you quote folks, can you please try and do it properly so that I know where someones post ends and another begins?

Gives me a headache trying to decypher your contributions apart from that I think I disagree with you but then I'm not quite sure because I don't know where ones sentence starts and ...

Cheers and happy Sunday (Monday) to everybody

 

[matt49]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a 'placebo' works, then it works; that's the point. If it seems to a person that something is better then it really is better.You may not see it this way but we are after all allowed to make our own decisions. For myself, I think that cables can make a difference to the (perceived) nature of the sound produced by audio equipment. A rule-of-thumb used to be approximately 10% of the value of the equipment to be spent on interconnects. I think this seems reasonable.

I see what you mean with the placebo being real to the person experiencing it, that's fine. But it then has no value to anybody else, because if it's placebo, any other person will probably experience something else, maybe a different placebo, maybe none at all. So there is absolutely no value to anyone in sharing placebo experiences.

Well, no, that's not true actually. Placebo effects aren't specific to the individual in the way you're implying. Most placebo effects are shared by a sizeable proportion of the population, so (assuming we're taking this whole argument seriously) it makes perfect sense for people to share their placebo experiences. Chances are some other people will experience the placebo in exactly the same way.

 

[drummerman]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a 'placebo' works, then it works; that's the point. If it seems to a person that something is better then it really is better.You may not see it this way but we are after all allowed to make our own decisions. For myself, I think that cables can make a difference to the (perceived) nature of the sound produced by audio equipment. A rule-of-thumb used to be approximately 10% of the value of the equipment to be spent on interconnects. I think this seems reasonable.

I see what you mean with the placebo being real to the person experiencing it, that's fine. But it then has no value to anybody else, because if it's placebo, any other person will probably experience something else, maybe a different placebo, maybe none at all. So there is absolutely no value to anyone in sharing placebo experiences.

Well, no, that's not true actually. Placebo effects aren't specific to the individual in the way you're implying. Most placebo effects are shared by a sizeable proportion of the population, so (assuming we're taking this whole argument seriously) it makes perfect sense for people to share their placebo experiences. Chances are some other people will experience the placebo in exactly the same way.

Of course peoples opinions matter ... even TrevC/Anderson's

 

[Thompsonuxb]

@LaurensB

That makes no sense.

If you are not sure how can you 'know'?

One can comment on one's own perception if there is a difference and that's it.

Which is why I say judge for yourself.

What's EE?

The two states of mind of "not being sure" and "knowing" do not happen at the same time. One follows the other (but not inevitably) after further investigation.

EE = Electrical/Electronics Engineer.

What is this suppose to mean?

Is this how one defends EE's......

 

[pauln]

@LaurensB

That makes no sense.

If you are not sure how can you 'know'?

One can comment on one's own perception if there is a difference and that's it.

Which is why I say judge for yourself.

What's EE?

The two states of mind of "not being sure" and "knowing" do not happen at the same time. One follows the other (but not inevitably) after further investigation.

EE = Electrical/Electronics Engineer.

What is this suppose to mean?

Is this how one defends EE's......

Really Thompson, how do you find it so hard to understand plain English and simple logic?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a 'placebo' works, then it works; that's the point. If it seems to a person that something is better then it really is better.You may not see it this way but we are after all allowed to make our own decisions. For myself, I think that cables can make a difference to the (perceived) nature of the sound produced by audio equipment. A rule-of-thumb used to be approximately 10% of the value of the equipment to be spent on interconnects. I think this seems reasonable.

This 10% of the value of the equipment?

Is that 10% of the price I paid for it?

Or 10% of the price I'd get if I sold it all now?

Or 10% of the price I'd have had to pay if I'd bought it all new?

Or 10% of the price I'd have had to pay if I'd bought it all new, adjusted for inflation?

Or the lowest of any of these figures?

Or the highest?

Or the average?

?

For my main system, I paid a total of about £9500 for it. Does that mean I should have spent £950 on cables instead of the £25 I actually did spend?

Over the last 5 years I've spent about £900 on 1500 vinyl and CD albums. Do you think I'd have gotten more enjoyment from my money if I'd spent it on cables instead of music?

Actually, you may have enjoyed your music more - you've spent so much on your kit, why so hard to spend a little more to find out?

You don't have to break the bank but c'mon. ......

 

[Thompsonuxb]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a 'placebo' works, then it works; that's the point. If it seems to a person that something is better then it really is better.You may not see it this way but we are after all allowed to make our own decisions. For myself, I think that cables can make a difference to the (perceived) nature of the sound produced by audio equipment. A rule-of-thumb used to be approximately 10% of the value of the equipment to be spent on interconnects. I think this seems reasonable.

I see what you mean with the placebo being real to the person experiencing it, that's fine. But it then has no value to anybody else, because if it's placebo, any other person will probably experience something else, maybe a different placebo, maybe none at all. So there is absolutely no value to anyone in sharing placebo experiences.

Well, no, that's not true actually. Placebo effects aren't specific to the individual in the way you're implying. Most placebo effects are shared by a sizeable proportion of the population, so (assuming we're taking this whole argument seriously) it makes perfect sense for people to share their placebo experiences. Chances are some other people will experience the placebo in exactly the same way.

 

Surely if the experience is shared that makes the effects of the placebo real ?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

@LaurensB

That makes no sense.

If you are not sure how can you 'know'?

One can comment on one's own perception if there is a difference and that's it.

Which is why I say judge for yourself.

What's EE?

The two states of mind of "not being sure" and "knowing" do not happen at the same time. One follows the other (but not inevitably) after further investigation.

EE = Electrical/Electronics Engineer.

What is this suppose to mean?

Is this how one defends EE's......

Really Thompson, how do you find it so hard to understand plain English and simple logic?

That's plain English?.....prrrrft!

And your logic is flawed - read what you said, 'the two states of mind.... ' *crazy*

To anyone still reading best try for yourselves - have a listen then decide.

 

[ID.]

I was feeling a bit lonely without a Groundhog-Day-like repeating cable pissing contest thread.

Thanks boys

Carry on.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I was feeling a bit lonely without a Groundhog-Day-like repeating cable pissing contest thread.

?

Thanks boys

Carry on.

It's a bank holiday......

 

[richardw42]

But do you know how the human auditory system works? If a 'placebo' works, then it works; that's the point. If it seems to a person that something is better then it really is better.You may not see it this way but we are after all allowed to make our own decisions. For myself, I think that cables can make a difference to the (perceived) nature of the sound produced by audio equipment. A rule-of-thumb used to be approximately 10% of the value of the equipment to be spent on interconnects. I think this seems reasonable.

This 10% of the value of the equipment?

Is that 10% of the price I paid for it?

Or 10% of the price I'd get if I sold it all now?

Or 10% of the price I'd have had to pay if I'd bought it all new?

Or 10% of the price I'd have had to pay if I'd bought it all new, adjusted for inflation?

Or the lowest of any of these figures?

Or the highest?

Or the average?

For my main system, I paid a total of about £9500 for it. Does that mean I should have spent £950 on cables instead of the £25 I actually did spend?

Over the last 5 years I've spent about £900 on 1500 vinyl and CD albums. Do you think I'd have gotten more enjoyment from my money if I'd spent it on cables instead of music?

Great post

and from an AVI owner, that's something.

 

[matt49]

Well, no, that's not true actually. Placebo effects aren't specific to the individual in the way you're implying. Most placebo effects are shared by a sizeable proportion of the population, so (assuming we're taking this whole argument seriously) it makes perfect sense for people to share their placebo experiences. Chances are some other people will experience the placebo in exactly the same way.

Surely if the experience is shared that makes the effects of the placebo real ?

No, it remains a placebo effect! You can call it a 'real' placebo effect if you want, but the word 'real' adds nothing here.

Imagine you have 20,000 people suffering from mild to moderate depression. Under DB conditions you give half of them Prozac and half of them a sugar pill. In both 10,000-strong groups, 4000 people say they feel better after taking the pill for a month. The conclusion of the test would be that the experience of the 4000 people who feel better after taking Prozac is a placebo effect (because it’s exactly the same proportion as get better after taking the sugar pill).

Now imagine the manufacturer of Prozac puts out a press release stating that Prozac works on around 40% of cases of mild and moderate depression. It works by altering brain chemistry: specifically, it works by delaying the re-uptake of serotonin by the receptors in the brain and thereby increasing the levels of serotonin.

Would you say that’s a fair description of what’s really happening?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Well, no, that's not true actually. Placebo effects aren't specific to the individual in the way you're implying. Most placebo effects are shared by a sizeable proportion of the population, so (assuming we're taking this whole argument seriously) it makes perfect sense for people to share their placebo experiences. Chances are some other people will experience the placebo in exactly the same way.

Surely if the experience is shared that makes the effects of the placebo real ?

No, it remains a placebo effect! You can call it a 'real' placebo effect if you want, but the word 'real' adds nothing here.

Imagine you have 20,000 people suffering from mild to moderate depression. Under DB conditions you give half of them Prozac and half of them a sugar pill. In both 10,000-strong groups, 4000 people say they feel better after taking the pill for a month. The conclusion of the test would be that the experience of the 4000 people who feel better after taking Prozac is a placebo effect (because it’s exactly the same proportion as get better after taking the sugar pill).

Now imagine the manufacturer of Prozac puts out a press release stating that Prozac works on around 40% of cases of mild and moderate depression. It works by altering brain chemistry: specifically, it works by delaying the re-uptake of serotonin by the receptors in the brain and thereby increasing the levels of serotonin.

Would you say that’s a fair description of what’s really happening?

If we accept that the body chemistry varys from one individual to another - then Prozac is doing has it says on the box - the effects are real for that 40%.

If a follow up trial is ran and the sugar pill is used for that 40% to no affect, then it's proven to be real. Even more so if tests show the chemical changes promised by the drug actually took place within that 40%.

But this is about context, you cannot compare a chemical issue within an individual that is resolved by a chemical treatment with the influence a visual cue can have on a person's perception of what they are hearing..

That makes no sense.

 

[CnoEvil]

Placebos used in medicine, cause real physical and measureable changes in the brain/body....and some research has shown that it can work, even if the recipient knows it's a placebo (which is a little mind warping).

 

[matt49]

If we accept that the body chemistry varys from one individual to another - then Prozac is doing has it says on the box - the effects are real for that 40%.

No. That's the wrong answer. The correct answer is that the manufacturers have no justification for using this trial to claim that Prozac works by inhibiting serotonin re-uptake. BTW everything in that scenario was (a simplified version of) a true situation. The results are well known, and there's a mass of scientific literature on the subject for anyone who cares to read it.

If a follow up trial is ran and the sugar pill is used for that 40% to no affect, then it's proven to be real. Even more so if tests show the chemical changes promised by the drug actually took place within that 40%.

A follow-up trial would be meaningless because that 40% of people are now no longer ill.

But this is about context, you cannot compare a chemical issue within an individual that is resolved by a chemical treatment with the influence a visual cue can have on a person's perception of what they are hearing..

That makes no sense.

The point wasn't to compare the two things. The point was to establish whether we understand how the placebo effect works. You've now demonstrated that you don't. *bye*[/quote]

 

[matt49]

Placebos used in medicine, cause real physical and measureable changes in the brain/body....and some research has shown that it can work, even if the recipient knows it's a placebo (which is a little mind warping).

Exactly. The question is what's the mechanism that's making the changes happen? Thompson is wedded to the (obviously incorrect) notion that the method of action that the manufacturers (of Prozac or of expensive HDMI cables) claim is actually valid.

 

[lindsayt]

Thompsonuxb, I've tried a small selection of different cables in my system.

At the moment, my listening tests indicate that I shouldn't spend a single penny more on cables than what I already have done.

 

[CnoEvil]

The question is what's the mechanism that's making the changes happen?

The brain is a powerful and wondrous organ....and as mysterious as the outer reaches of the Universe.

 

[Laurens_B]

The question is what's the mechanism that's making the changes happen?

The brain is a powerful and wondrous organ....and as mysterious as the outer reaches of the Universe.

But cables are really low-tech well understood electrical devices, they are also not a natural phenomenon about which we still have to learn things, we made them.