I actually like the look of a rack full of hifi boxes. Especially if they're all from the same manufacturer and are asthetically matched.
Me too & it sounds great!
Me too & it sounds great!
plastic penguin
Well-known member
Massed boxes to me is boys toys. I like knobs and flickering lights and things you can fiddle with.
Also my system has an 'old skool' sound which would be incredibly hard to replicate, especially with actives that boast ultra clarity.
I think it's great that systems are around a similar ballpark. Ample choice for all.
Also my system has an 'old skool' sound which would be incredibly hard to replicate, especially with actives that boast ultra clarity.
I think it's great that systems are around a similar ballpark. Ample choice for all.
busb
Well-known member
There is no one answer - just look at Abacus's list. I have simplified my system to some degree. My Freesat TV doubles as a tuner, my newest box combines BR discs with CD, my DAC doubles as a preamp. My TV, BRP & ATV all do YouTube. The advantage to me is the ability to mix components when either they break, become obsolete or boring. I don't feel the need to match by size or make. I also have the room & inclination to combine my TV into my system where others either frown on doing so or just can't conveniently. The active route seems pretty logical to someone starting from scratch unless willing to flog what one has. If I did go the active route, I'd want to ensure that the manufacturer was willing & able to update stuff such as the DAC or power amps.
Integrating lots into one case does require more careful power supply design but has shorter signal paths. In the past, some folk insisted that amps needed to be split into more than one box but we can spend thousands on integrated one that sounds far better. Like any things, it all depends.
Integrating lots into one case does require more careful power supply design but has shorter signal paths. In the past, some folk insisted that amps needed to be split into more than one box but we can spend thousands on integrated one that sounds far better. Like any things, it all depends.
For me, the all-in-one has (and has always has had) some unique attractions.
1. There is less temptation to get dragged into the whole 'audiophile' thing, messing with interconnects and (for example) wondering whether a different CD player would give the amp a better signal to work with.
2. To my mind all-in-ones look better. I used to love the look of a whole stack of seperates, especially if all the same make. Now, if truth be told, I find it a bit over-bearing and a distraction as much as anything else, and it means there is more kit to attract dust (as anything electrical seems to do for fun).
3. Convenience. One remote to control everything.
4. Less power cables to accomodate and less cabling in general.
Many years ago I had a Denon UD-M30 (the first in their long line of shoe-box systems which has culminated in the D-M39DAB) and I just enjoyed listening to the music. I forgot about switching components about, and wondering whether I should upgrade this or upgrade that, and focused purely on the music. It was a great little system, used with the matching speakers (SCM50, made by Mission). Later I had a similar spell with an Onkyo CR515DAB - another cracker. I do currently have a similar system in the bedroom and I'm planning to spend some time using it in the living room as the main system, to see how it goes. I'd love to say goodbye to the whole hi-fi thing for a while and I think this might be the way to do it.
I don't need anything overly powerful. I don't play mega loud, ever, and one of the reasons I chose the Q 2020i is because they are pretty straight forward for a smaller amp to drive. As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, it is about having a balanced system that works together. You can spend forever chasing some sort of ideal but there is always too much of a temptation to try to get it even better, instead of the system being a way of serving up the music in an enjoyable way, as a source of relaxation.
1. There is less temptation to get dragged into the whole 'audiophile' thing, messing with interconnects and (for example) wondering whether a different CD player would give the amp a better signal to work with.
2. To my mind all-in-ones look better. I used to love the look of a whole stack of seperates, especially if all the same make. Now, if truth be told, I find it a bit over-bearing and a distraction as much as anything else, and it means there is more kit to attract dust (as anything electrical seems to do for fun).
3. Convenience. One remote to control everything.
4. Less power cables to accomodate and less cabling in general.
Many years ago I had a Denon UD-M30 (the first in their long line of shoe-box systems which has culminated in the D-M39DAB) and I just enjoyed listening to the music. I forgot about switching components about, and wondering whether I should upgrade this or upgrade that, and focused purely on the music. It was a great little system, used with the matching speakers (SCM50, made by Mission). Later I had a similar spell with an Onkyo CR515DAB - another cracker. I do currently have a similar system in the bedroom and I'm planning to spend some time using it in the living room as the main system, to see how it goes. I'd love to say goodbye to the whole hi-fi thing for a while and I think this might be the way to do it.
I don't need anything overly powerful. I don't play mega loud, ever, and one of the reasons I chose the Q 2020i is because they are pretty straight forward for a smaller amp to drive. As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, it is about having a balanced system that works together. You can spend forever chasing some sort of ideal but there is always too much of a temptation to try to get it even better, instead of the system being a way of serving up the music in an enjoyable way, as a source of relaxation.
from my experience with the little denon dm37 and my marantz pm7001 cd7300 and MA floorstanders, the seperates are in a different class , not surprisingly bass power is way ahead
I also have another system of yamaha as500 and tannoy v4, again a fuller deeper punchier sound
I tried the v4 on the liitle denon and they did not sound as controlled when turned up and that fat satisfying bass was weaker, but it still was better than expected overall, the little denon is fine in the bedroom with the little wharfedales
the mini system would need a powered sub , if it was my main source
seperates for me,
I also have another system of yamaha as500 and tannoy v4, again a fuller deeper punchier sound
I tried the v4 on the liitle denon and they did not sound as controlled when turned up and that fat satisfying bass was weaker, but it still was better than expected overall, the little denon is fine in the bedroom with the little wharfedales
the mini system would need a powered sub , if it was my main source
seperates for me,
matt49
Well-known member
cse
Well-known member
If seperates don't sound much different to all-in-ones, why would you bother splashing out on a Naim Uniti when you can have a cheapo Marantz all-in-one?
I really rate lesser "mini" style systems paired with good speakers (at least in my experience). When I didn't have space for separates I used a JVC mini from 1998 (a WHF award winner back then) with my Ruark Talisman II's. Every genre sounded great. I forgot about messing with wires/boxes and just enjoyed the music. The speakers were too high a load and after a year they cooked the amp, but for that year, I couldn't have wished for anything more
matthewpiano said:
I completely agree with you. I owned quite a few expensive audio setups with many boxes the last 25 years and none of them provided me more musical pleasure than when i owned the Q 2020i and a Cyrus 6XP.
Because i am also looking at reducing the number of boxes for the reasons you mentioned, i recently tested the Denon RCD-CX1 in my own setup and was quite surprised by the performance. This Denon combined with the 2020i (or Q Concept 20?) would probably be a very musical combination i could enjoy for quite some time. No network play though for the RCD-CX1.
Sign o the times........
Ther eis a huge golf in terms of performance between these midi & a competent seperates systems. Its when you stop caring about the music that this type of blah feeling sets in. My daughter has the DAB38 with a pair of JBL speakers - they're good enuff for the system. The speakers are set out on stands in the bay of her bedroom about 2m or so apart & while the system presents music well it really is not a substitute for a 'full' sized system.'.
If you still care about the things that makes music something you want to listen too its not enuff - if you care about the delivery of a song, the nuances in the way an artist plays their instrument of choice, the way a producer puts it all together to create a musical landscape, if you still listen and not just hear the DAB38 is not enuff make all the excuses you want regards convienience etc its not enuff.
But basically being happy with - is maybe a sign of the times, the last droplet of youth has finally fallen to the ground and has just left you old.
comes to us all...........
Ther eis a huge golf in terms of performance between these midi & a competent seperates systems. Its when you stop caring about the music that this type of blah feeling sets in. My daughter has the DAB38 with a pair of JBL speakers - they're good enuff for the system. The speakers are set out on stands in the bay of her bedroom about 2m or so apart & while the system presents music well it really is not a substitute for a 'full' sized system.'.
If you still care about the things that makes music something you want to listen too its not enuff - if you care about the delivery of a song, the nuances in the way an artist plays their instrument of choice, the way a producer puts it all together to create a musical landscape, if you still listen and not just hear the DAB38 is not enuff make all the excuses you want regards convienience etc its not enuff.
But basically being happy with - is maybe a sign of the times, the last droplet of youth has finally fallen to the ground and has just left you old.
comes to us all...........
chebby
Well-known member
Thompsonuxb said:
Not so much in some cases. I am still glad that I sold my Naim CD5i/Nait 5i/NAT05 system. I can assure you that, although the difference in SQ was there (of course it was), it was nothing like the "huge golf" you claim it would be.
Thompsonuxb said:
That had already set in with the Naim system long before I sold it.
Here I am - 26 months after selling it (and getting the M-CR603) - enjoying my system far more than I ever did.
It's not just about the quality of the system. It's also about whether you are enjoying it and whether you can live with it.
Thompsonuxb said:
That doesn't reconcile with the fact that most young people aren't buying traditional seperates and are choosing docks, mini-systems, active PC speakers, headphones, earphones, downloads, MP3 players, smart phones and wireless instead.
chebby said:
thats just hit the nail on the head, im listening less and less to my cd's (critically or otherwise), and tend to find myself listening to the tuner or watching youtube on a tablet and sending the audio via bluetooth. sometimes even tv music channels :exmark:
these options are sonically behind the cd player but unless im feeling in the mood for listening to a whole cd i would rather just dip in and out with one or two tracks here and there from the other sources
Thompsonuxb said:Sign o the times........
Ther eis a huge golf in terms of performance between these midi & a competent seperates systems. Its when you stop caring about the music that this type of blah feeling sets in. My daughter has the DAB38 with a pair of JBL speakers - they're good enuff for the system. The speakers are set out on stands in the bay of her bedroom about 2m or so apart & while the system presents music well it really is not a substitute for a 'full' sized system.'.
If you still care about the things that makes music something you want to listen too its not enuff - if you care about the delivery of a song, the nuances in the way an artist plays their instrument of choice, the way a producer puts it all together to create a musical landscape, if you still listen and not just hear the DAB38 is not enuff make all the excuses you want regards convienience etc its not enuff.
But basically being happy with - is maybe a sign of the times, the last droplet of youth has finally fallen to the ground and has just left you old.
comes to us all...........
I actually disagree with your post pretty much completely and it has nothing to do with 'the times' or losing the 'last droplet of youth'.
John Duncan
Well-known member
Me too. Though I think I disagree most with "Its when you stop caring about the music that this type of blah feeling sets in."
I like the attraction of an all in one but I'd miss the flexibility that separates gives you. And I think another major deciding factor is whether or not you like looking at lots of different boxes, and I'm one of the weirdos who does. Particularly if they're aesthetically matching items from the same manufacturer, like my old Cyrus gear.
Or get an all in 1 that is as big as a stack of separates!
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/uploads/manuals/English/KW250S_eng.pdf
Personally I think up to about the £2500 price point for a system I do not think there is much difference sound wise if you spend the same money. My old onkyo cr515 sounded better than some budget Cambridge audio separates and my avi neutrons and sub sound better than any other combo at the same price I have listened to.
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/uploads/manuals/English/KW250S_eng.pdf
Personally I think up to about the £2500 price point for a system I do not think there is much difference sound wise if you spend the same money. My old onkyo cr515 sounded better than some budget Cambridge audio separates and my avi neutrons and sub sound better than any other combo at the same price I have listened to.
On my current quest (and it really has become a quest) to find new speakers and an amp, I have discovered that many cheaper products can sound the same or much better than more expensive ones. It is all down to personal preference and what sounds good to you though.
Once you get to a certain price point sound improvement become negligible, but there are reason for getting more expensive gear other than sound quality such as filling a larger room, pride of ownership, reliability, build quality, looks, after sales service, more functions.
Once you get to a certain price point sound improvement become negligible, but there are reason for getting more expensive gear other than sound quality such as filling a larger room, pride of ownership, reliability, build quality, looks, after sales service, more functions.
Alantiggger
Well-known member
I don't own the best nor anywhere near it (as my sig shows) though for now I am quite happy (bar the fact that I KEEP missing out on MANY stereo speakers from a few years back that were BRILL and cost a few bucks more than I have yet are now avail for a LOT LESS, yet I stil get outbid at every turn....
sigh... oh wow is me )
Still...
I'd recon though I don't know so much as MOST on here (yet, still reading every day though) that a real great seperate system would mostly Always if not always outshine an all in one ... especially at the higher-end. eh ?
I Keep hearing on ALL forums as to HOW better speakers sound etc ?
sigh... oh wow is me
)Still...
I'd recon though I don't know so much as MOST on here (yet, still reading every day though) that a real great seperate system would mostly Always if not always outshine an all in one ... especially at the higher-end. eh ?
I Keep hearing on ALL forums as to HOW better speakers sound etc ?
Tzutzu
Well-known member
If you want to go from A to B you buy a Dacia Logan. If you want to go from A to B in style you buy a Merc. In between there is enough room for everyone.
SpursGator
Well-known member
Although I want/need separates, there is no question that all-in-one solutions are the future of the industry. The mass-market is already halfway there, especially as home cinema receivers and iPod docks are basically all-in-one boxes in concept.
I disagree that the future of specialty hifi will be amps and electronics integrated into speakers, though. If there is one thing that most high-end speaker manufacturers have in common, it is that they all offer a lot of different models. Companies like PMC and ProAc have more products on offer than Apple! Speakers are the weak link in the rush towards predicting a world of homogeneously 'accurate' components that all sound the same - speakers are all imperfect and much depends on personal taste and the room. People are always going to want a lot of choices and the market has certainly risen to that challenge.
With electronics, though, we will probably see some kind of middle ground in the high-end market. If I wanted to start a high end hifi company, I would probably try to sell two boxes - some kind of all-in-one digital source and preamp, and a separate power amp. I.e., offer the all-in-one box with the exception of the power amp section, with a DAC, maybe some kind of modular disc transport/phono stage expansion ability, home cinema capabilities depending on the model, etc. Let people choose one box that is all the sources and a line stage/volume control. But then continue to try to sell the separate power amp - there is advantage to not sharing the power supply and people could choose tubes or solid state based on taste.
So in short I think that the all-in-one concept is the future, even at the high-end, but I don't think that will necessarily equate to one actual box (or everyone using active speakers). I believe the market will continue to exist for separates, albeit more streamlined separates like we are already seeing, for a long time to come. Despite the hype to the contrary.
But as far as 'sounding better,' if there's a high end market for mini systems, they will engineer it and surely it will sound good. I mean, how bad can this sound:
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=lifestyle&ProductId=MXA60
This product - and it's utter absurdity - illustrate both sides. Keep in mind, that's in the Lifestyle section of their website. Indeed. But for $7,500 I can surely put together a system of separates that would blow this thing though the walls, however sweet it sounds. There will be a market for that system in the Earbud Future, believe it.
I disagree that the future of specialty hifi will be amps and electronics integrated into speakers, though. If there is one thing that most high-end speaker manufacturers have in common, it is that they all offer a lot of different models. Companies like PMC and ProAc have more products on offer than Apple! Speakers are the weak link in the rush towards predicting a world of homogeneously 'accurate' components that all sound the same - speakers are all imperfect and much depends on personal taste and the room. People are always going to want a lot of choices and the market has certainly risen to that challenge.
With electronics, though, we will probably see some kind of middle ground in the high-end market. If I wanted to start a high end hifi company, I would probably try to sell two boxes - some kind of all-in-one digital source and preamp, and a separate power amp. I.e., offer the all-in-one box with the exception of the power amp section, with a DAC, maybe some kind of modular disc transport/phono stage expansion ability, home cinema capabilities depending on the model, etc. Let people choose one box that is all the sources and a line stage/volume control. But then continue to try to sell the separate power amp - there is advantage to not sharing the power supply and people could choose tubes or solid state based on taste.
So in short I think that the all-in-one concept is the future, even at the high-end, but I don't think that will necessarily equate to one actual box (or everyone using active speakers). I believe the market will continue to exist for separates, albeit more streamlined separates like we are already seeing, for a long time to come. Despite the hype to the contrary.
But as far as 'sounding better,' if there's a high end market for mini systems, they will engineer it and surely it will sound good. I mean, how bad can this sound:
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=lifestyle&ProductId=MXA60
This product - and it's utter absurdity - illustrate both sides. Keep in mind, that's in the Lifestyle section of their website. Indeed. But for $7,500 I can surely put together a system of separates that would blow this thing though the walls, however sweet it sounds. There will be a market for that system in the Earbud Future, believe it.
All-in-one solutions will have a future but for me the soundquality is very important..........not only the convenience (as if a separates system takes up so much space........if you want your music to sound good that will be not a problem at all).
But products like the Marantz MCR603 or a Denon Ceol are just not good enough. For the same money you can buy a nice separates system that will sound much better.
The new Pioneer X-P01 is a step in the right direction though...............small, but still separates.
Just my opinion.
But products like the Marantz MCR603 or a Denon Ceol are just not good enough. For the same money you can buy a nice separates system that will sound much better.
The new Pioneer X-P01 is a step in the right direction though...............small, but still separates.
Just my opinion.
chebby
Well-known member
SpursGator said:
Didn't you see the McAire?
(Not my 'cup of tea' despite the meters. I'd rather see what kind of 'all-in-one' B&W could produce for the same money with true active speakers and DSP.)
As for "utter absurdity", the so-called 'high end' (with all of it's horns and oil refinery inspired valve amps) strikes me as far more absurd. Ultimate Statement Hi-fi has it's place - as do gold plated Maybachs and diamond studded iPhones - but it's not got much to do with enjoying sound in the home.
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