how many do you believe make a difference?

[hammill]

jase fox:davejberry:

;

power cables - NO,
Obviously YOUR opinion.There was me thinking that everyones post was their opinion. Obviously in your case it is fact?

 

[idc]

Yes Jase, I have well and truely switched sides. The reasons are

1 - many debates here about cables and nagging doubts about their effect because it was so inconsistent and not being able to rationalise the objectivity of the cable (it is unchanging) and subjectivity of the claims.

2 - making my own cables and finding with my own blind tests there was no difference between my beginner cables made from the cheapest stuff I could find on ebay having tought myself to solder and 'audiophile' ones.

3 - reading up on blind tests published on the internet and finding that together, as a meta study they produce random results in all occasions for cables, but not for other hifi such as speakers. A random result means that the cable itself has no effect, the effect must be in the listener.

4 - reading up on 'bad science' in general and finding that cable makers make all sorts of claims, without peer reviwed studies or any real testing of their claims, which only suggest a link between differences in the way cables are made (eddy currents, skin effect etc) but show no link to actual audibility.

5 - further to 4 and bad science, the mixing of actual differences, particularly resistence/inductance which can effect cables over very long runs or result in attenuation and its effect on volume control with suggested differences, in that standard hifi with its usual shorter lengths of cable and no attenuation are not effected by the actual differences but the suggestion is made that they are. That there are actual differences in cables, particularly attenuation explain that actual differences are sometimes found, such as having to adjust volume.

6 - contradictions in claims. Silver is better than copper, multistrand is better than solid core or for both and other claims vice versa depending on who you are listening to. If some cables are better than others, let alone different, which ones are they? We should know by now if a certain way of making a cable with a certain material is inherantly better than another. But there is no sign of that happening. So again that suggests the difference is in the listener.

7 - evidence that the difference is in the listener. Placebo and purchase justification are well studied and known to be very effective on people. I see no reason why hifi cables hould be exempt from that. The different results from sighted and blind testing of hif also back that up.

So I went with the science. But, I am open to other studies which could find something else, if or when they come.

 

[jase fox]

bigboss:
jase fox: Anyway i still stand firmly by them making a difference, very much so especially since my RAs Reference powerkord has burnt in, no way it's placebo as the differences were way to obvious to the point were i had to turn my subs down, and i have my movies set to certain volumes, i actually make a note of what volume i had it on so when i next watch it i know where to have it, but in this case i've had to turn them down lower than normal, so NO placebo here.

Thats why i make these little notes so i know i cant be fooled, rather than me listening or reading about how they dont make a difference, i'd rather do my OWN experiments to find out for myself.

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/post/537326.aspx

Thats just idc giving us his logical explanation, with which i certainly dont agree.

 

[jase fox]

hammill:jase fox:davejberry:

;

power cables - NO,
Obviously YOUR opinion.There was me thinking that everyones post was their opinion. Obviously in your case it is fact?Not at all, just MY opinion

 

[professorhat]

aliEnRIK:professorhat:To my eyes and ears, all four can and do make a difference.
I agree completely with that statement

I wonder what the point of Max's post is?

I believe his aim is being achieved as we speak...

 

[bigboss]

Great post idc!

Your 7th point is interesting. I've always used a Parker fountain pen for writing, until my Mrs. gifted me a Mont Blanc on our wedding. I instantly believed that it's vastly superior to my Parker & have been using it exclusively, until yesterday when the ink ran out midway & I continued writing with the Parker. It was just as smooth as the Mont Blanc!

Despite that, I'm still going to keep my Parker as a back up in case ink runs out on my Mont Blanc.

 

[jase fox]

idc:
Yes Jase, I have well and truely switched sides. The reasons are

1 - many debates here about cables and nagging doubts about their effect because it was so inconsistent and not being able to rationalise the objectivity of the cable (it is unchanging) and subjectivity of the claims.

2 - making my own cables and finding with my own blind tests there was no difference between my beginner cables made from the cheapest stuff I could find on ebay having tought myself to solder and 'audiophile' ones.

3 - reading up on blind tests published on the internet and finding that together, as a meta study they produce random results in all occasions for cables, but not for other hifi such as speakers. A random result means that the cable itself has no effect, the effect must be in the listener.

4 - reading up on 'bad science' in general and finding that cable makers make all sorts of claims, without peer reviwed studies or any real testing of their claims, which only suggest a link between differences in the way cables are made (eddy currents, skin effect etc) but show no link to actual audibility.

5 - further to 4 and bad science, the mixing of actual differences, particularly resistence/inductance which can effect cables over very long runs or result in attenuation and its effect on volume control with suggested differences, in that standard hifi with its usual shorter lengths of cable and no attenuation are not effected by the actual differences but the suggestion is made that they are. That there are actual differences in cables, particularly attenuation explain that actual differences are sometimes found, such as having to adjust volume.

6 - contradictions in claims. Silver is better than copper, multistrand is better than solid core or for both and other claims vice versa depending on who you are listening to. If some cables are better than others, let alone different, which ones are they? We should know by now if a certain way of making a cable with a certain material is inherantly better than another. But there is no sign of that happening. So again that suggests the difference is in the listener.

7 - evidence that the difference is in the listener. Placebo and purchase justification are well studied and known to be very effective on people. I see no reason why hifi cables hould be exempt from that. The different results from sighted and blind testing of hif also back that up.

So I went with the science. But, I am open to other studies which could find something else, if or when they come.

Well you've certainly done your research, but i've done my own research in my (lab) well, front room, as i only believe what my eyes see and ears hear. So we'll just agree to disagree mate, ha

Happy new year to you anyway.

 

[jase fox]

bigboss:
Great post idc!

Your 7th point is interesting. I've always used a Parker fountain pen for writing, until my Mrs. gifted me a Mont Blanc on our wedding. I instantly believed that it's vastly superior to my Parker & have been using it exclusively, until yesterday when the ink ran out midway & I continued writing with the Parker. It was just as smooth as the Mont Blanc!

Despite that, I'm still going to keep my Parker as a back up in case ink runs out on my Mont Blanc.

Well now you see IMO i dont think the "papermate pen" can be beaten for its smoothness (and im not joking) as i believe my handwriting is better with a papermate i seem to be able to write much more neatly with it.

Now i'm sure idc will come along and tell me "its all in the wrist?" ha

 

[jase fox]

professorhat:aliEnRIK:professorhat:To my eyes and ears, all four can and do make a difference.
I agree completely with that statement

I wonder what the point of Max's post is?

I believe his aim is being achieved as we speak...

Yep, you got that right Prof.

 

[bigboss]

jase fox:bigboss:
Great post idc!

Your 7th point is interesting. I've always used a Parker fountain pen for writing, until my Mrs. gifted me a Mont Blanc on our wedding. I instantly believed that it's vastly superior to my Parker & have been using it exclusively, until yesterday when the ink ran out midway & I continued writing with the Parker. It was just as smooth as the Mont Blanc!

Despite that, I'm still going to keep my Parker as a back up in case ink runs out on my Mont Blanc.

Well now you see IMO i dont think the "papermate pen" can be beaten for its smoothness (and im not joking) as i believe my handwriting is better with a papermate i seem to be able to write much more neatly with it.

Now i'm sure idc will come along and tell me "its all in the wrist?" ha

I was a papermate person until I discovered fountain pens

It's great to have 2 contrasting opinions (you & idc), makes up for some interesting reading.

The forum won't be the same if you ever change your stand on this topic.

 

[jase fox]

bigboss:jase fox:bigboss:
Great post idc!

Your 7th point is interesting. I've always used a Parker fountain pen for writing, until my Mrs. gifted me a Mont Blanc on our wedding. I instantly believed that it's vastly superior to my Parker & have been using it exclusively, until yesterday when the ink ran out midway & I continued writing with the Parker. It was just as smooth as the Mont Blanc!

Despite that, I'm still going to keep my Parker as a back up in case ink runs out on my Mont Blanc.

Well now you see IMO i dont think the "papermate pen" can be beaten for its smoothness (and im not joking) as i believe my handwriting is better with a papermate i seem to be able to write much more neatly with it.

Now i'm sure idc will come along and tell me "its all in the wrist?" ha

I was a papermate person until I discovered fountain pens

It's great to have 2 contrasting opinions (you & idc), makes up for some interesting reading.

The forum won't be the same if you ever change your stand on this topic.

And yet idc was once on my side of the fence, i know how ben feels now with anakin at the end of the last star wars movie :-(

 

[jase fox]

And as for changing my stand on mains topics......Never happen !

I, is a believer through and through.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Good post, idc. I am on the same position and my experience is

HDMI, USB, optical and coax digital cables: tried changing, no difference

Power cables: tried changing, no difference

Speaker cables: never changed, cannot comment

Analogue interconnects: tried changing, no difference

 

[Anonymous]

HDMI, USB etc: tried changing; no difference.

Power cables: tried changing; no difference.

Speaker cables: changed and definitely noticed a difference. Did blind testing to confirm.

Analogue interconnects: tried changing; no difference.

This topic is like religion: pretty hard to prove who is right, if anyone

 

[davejberry]

jase fox:davejberry:
;

power cables - NO,

Obviously YOUR opinion.

yes, my opinion, if i was quoting someone else, or a fact i know to be true, i would try at least to provide the source of the information i support of any statement. as i mentioned above, i have supplied my opinion based on my experience, limited though it may be. i have however not tested power cables, i am an electrician and i don't believe they make a difference.

 

[professorhat]

mightyredchris:This topic is like religion: pretty hard to prove who is right, if anyone

Indeed! What I am liking about most of this thread though is it's people's own experiences being touted rather than just "science told me it can't happen therefore I'm not willing to even try it" arguments. I'm a big believer in trying things out for yourself in these circumstances rather than just accepting what someone else tells me.

 

[idc]

jase fox:

.......And yet idc was once on my side of the fence, i know how ben feels now with anakin at the end of the last star wars movie

:-(

LOL I am the Darth Vader of cable debates! Luke, you must come to the Dark Side and join me!

It is interesting that in a previous post you mentioned using your eyes as well as your ears. There is a big difference between sighted and blind test cable (and other hifi) results. As a result of that I have also shifted the way I give advice on the forum and I comment far more on features than sound quality.

Harman International who own AKG amongst various brands have a blind listening test centre and have conducted various speaker blind tests. Google Sean Olive to see the results. He has found that audiophiles and less experienced listeners produce the same results (which ruins the argument of golden ears) and that there are the expected differences between blind and sighted tests (where more expensive and Harman brands out performed others once sighted).

I have also posted before on volume differences. I noticed slight volume differences with the IC cables I have when making my own. I am sure that is down to minute changes in resistance causing attenuation. On another forum a poster called Downsize makes his won cables using very expensive components, way more than I have used. He has sold some and found various reports of volume differences. He then used a Sound Pressure Meter on his own system and found no differences in SPL, even though he was sure he could also hear a volume difference. It is that one area that I think there may well be a difference in the cables which is also audible.

 

[RodhasGibson]

aliEnRIK:professorhat:

To my eyes and ears, all four can and do make a difference.

I agree and second that

I agree completely with that statement

I wonder what the point of Max's post is?

I wonder

 

[Anonymous]

professorhat:aliEnRIK:professorhat:To my eyes and ears, all four can and do make a difference.
I agree completely with that statement

I wonder what the point of Max's post is?

I believe his aim is being achieved as we speak...

not sure what you mean prof?

i thought it would be interesting to see how many people believe some of the cables help to give better results while believing that some others don't..

so far it seems that most are believers in all or none, i find that interesting

 

[Ronald Archiebald]

maxflinn:professorhat:aliEnRIK:professorhat:To my eyes and ears, all four can and do make a difference.
I agree completely with that statement

I wonder what the point of Max's post is?

I believe his aim is being achieved as we speak...

not sure what you mean prof?

i thought it would be interesting to see how many people believe some of the cables help to give better results while believing that some others don't..

so far it seems that most are believers in all or none, i find that interesting

Perhaps this : Contentious topic ----> No right/wrong opinions ------> endless arguments for/against------> thread locked.

 

[Anonymous]

why lock the thread?

 

[Ronald Archiebald]

maxflinn:why lock the thread?

Why do all similar threads always end up being locked?

 

[Anonymous]

Ronald Archiebald:
maxflinn:why lock the thread?

Why do all similar threads always end up being locked?

because people start arguing, imposing their views, insinuating things about others and their motives etc..

when we all just discuss things like adults in a friendly manner then cable threads can be very interesting imo, and are often not locked..

i find it interesting that the majority either believe in all or none of the cables i listed in my op..

 

[idc]

Delving into the various threads on this subject, amongst the bickering, there is a really interesting and for hifi enthusiasts a very important subject here.

I wonder how many prospective enthusiasts have bought cables after glowing reviews and recommendations, not heard a difference and subsequently thought, my hearing must not be of the caliber of those golden eared audiophiles, there is no point in me continuing with this.

I wonder how many people have been left with constant nagging doubts about their hifi because they can't afford the latest highly rated and recommended cable, so leaving them dissatisfied with the hifi's sound and not enjoying the music as much as they should be. (I accept that the opposite can occur, where a new cable can be just what is needed to take away doubts about a system, but I would never recommend anything over about £20 to do that)

 

[chudleighpaul]

Cable threads have been done to death.

I am not going to get involved in this one, everyone knows my views.