How do older 2nd hand speakers stand up against new models?

[admin_exported]

Would really appreciate some advice if possible...

How would something like 2nd hand Mission 751s stand up against, say, new Arcyadis DM1, Focal 705, Lektor 2, or similar in that sort of price range?

Would a set of those older Missions be an improvement on my current 2yr old MS902i Avant bookshelf speakers? What do the Missions sound like?

Are there any other older 2nd hand speakers it might be worth thinking about (small room, speakers quite close to wall on stands, kit in signature below, prefer detailed slightly forward sound)?

Is there anything problematic to watch out for if buying 2nd hand speakers?

Or should I hold out and save sufficient pennies for Rega RS1?!

Many thanks - grateful for your thoughts.

 

[Anonymous]

"Hello. Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone home? Relax. I need some information first. Just the basic facts. You are only coming through in waves. Your lips move but I can't hear what you're sayin'..."

Or to put it more succinctly, is there anyone out there who can help with this one guys...???

Thanks!

 

[d_a_n1979]

Have patience my young Padwan...

Sometimes it may take a day or so to get answers as it can be very busy or very quiet on here...!

IMO some 2nd hand speakers better more recent releases etc

It all depends on source and amp as well as original value.

For example; B&W released the 602 S2's and then a year or so later they released the 602 S3's.

I owned both but would always go back to the 602 S2's as they were just that bit more detailed and had better, lower end control.

 

[AEJim]

Speaker technology hasn't changed vastly since it first came about, if they were good speakers 15 years ago, the chances are that they are still good now! As long as there's no damage/wear that needs repair you can find some great 2nd-hand bargains - and that goes for most Hi-Fi.

The main thing that changes is fashion, both visibly and audibly - in the 70's it was trendy to have wide, shallow boxes with large drivers, through the 80's-90's that evolved into deep and narrow with smaller drivers (mainly because visually they seem smaller as you face them, in reality they probably take up more of your room with this modern configuration).

Audibly those older, larger drivers and big boxes usually resulted in a warmer sound with less detail, whereas newer models tend to be brighter and more "in your face" - much of what you will like will go down to personal preference and room positioning/partnering equipment. As I said originally, don't discount older speakers as being worse than new ones - the fact is you can buy higher-end models for less 2nd-hand so the trade off in any marginal technology improvements over the years is offset by that used price. It is harder to get a demo before you buy though!

 

[d_a_n1979]

As above

More so when it comes to the classic AE 109's

Loved those speakers and should have kep my last set!

 

[Anonymous]

Dan (Yoda) / James - thanks ever so much to both of you. It just perhaps gives me a bit of confidence to widen the search to used stuff as well as new. Not that I'll probably be buying particularly soon (therefore very sorry for putting a reminder on the thread - completely out of order, I know) but I like to savour the journey as well as the purchase, if you know what I mean. Sad really. Anyway, your advice kind of sits comfortably with my recollection that my first pair of Mordaunt Short MS15 speakers were as good, if not better, than anything I've owned since, although I didn't know if that was just nostalgia. Dan's B&W 602s look fairly large for my small room, but I guess that's a feature of older units from what James says. If I plump for used speakers, I keep coming back to those Mission 751s which look a bit "Blake's 7" with the front covers off, and all the better for it ! Just slightly worried they'd maybe sound a bit thin with the Cyrus amp, or in fact overly much like the MS902i's in fact (in which case no point in changing).

 

[AEJim]

d_a_n1979:As above

More so when it comes to the classic AE 109's

Loved those speakers and should have kep my last set!

We had to buy a pair off Ebay recently for reference as we'd sold them all and never kept the originals! Pretty much everyone liked the 109's and listening to them again last year - yep they're still great speakers! Coloured but musical - which, at the end of the day, is probably the most overlooked yet important aspect of a good piece of Hi-Fi! We'll see how the new Neo's stack up when we're done making them...

 

[AEJim]

athenry:Dan (Yoda) / James - thanks ever so much to both of you. It just perhaps gives me a bit of confidence to widen the search to used stuff as well as new. Not that I'll probably be buying particularly soon (therefore very sorry for putting a reminder on the thread - completely out of order, I know) but I like to savour the journey as well as the purchase, if you know what I mean. Sad really. Anyway, your advice kind of sits comfortably with my recollection that my first pair of Mordaunt Short MS15 speakers were as good, if not better, than anything I've owned since, although I didn't know if that was just nostalgia. Dan's B&W 602s look fairly large for my small room, but I guess that's a feature of older units from what James says. If I plump for used speakers, I keep coming back to those Mission 751s which look a bit "Blake's 7" with the front covers off, and all the better for it ! Just slightly worried they'd maybe sound a bit thin with the Cyrus amp, or in fact overly much like the MS902i's in fact (in which case no point in changing).

How about Mission 752's? they're a fairly compact, front-ported floorstander and should give a bit more warmth than the 751's, the old 2-way floorstanders are another dying breed that generally work very well (hard sell as they're usually the "middle child" of a range). There's a whole world of classic hi-fi if you look around and do some research - you might come across something you've never heard of that really floats your boat! (used to have some Royd Minstrels, tiny tiny floorstanders with surprisingly low bass - a little on the bright side tweeter-wise but great in a small room as side-ported and about 20cm deep!)

 

[d_a_n1979]

athenry:Dan (Yoda) / James - thanks ever so much to both of you. It just perhaps gives me a bit of confidence to widen the search to used stuff as well as new. Not that I'll probably be buying particularly soon (therefore very sorry for putting a reminder on the thread - completely out of order, I know) but I like to savour the journey as well as the purchase, if you know what I mean. Sad really. Anyway, your advice kind of sits comfortably with my recollection that my first pair of Mordaunt Short MS15 speakers were as good, if not better, than anything I've owned since, although I didn't know if that was just nostalgia. Dan's B&W 602s look fairly large for my small room, but I guess that's a feature of older units from what James says. If I plump for used speakers, I keep coming back to those Mission 751s which look a bit "Blake's 7" with the front covers off, and all the better for it ! Just slightly worried they'd maybe sound a bit thin with the Cyrus amp, or in fact overly much like the MS902i's in fact (in which case no point in changing).

If you're after some good, small speakers I'd recommend the Acoustic Energy AE100's as well.

On decent stands they're superb! Amazing bass for their size but warm and very musical

 

[d_a_n1979]

AEJim:
d_a_n1979:As above

More so when it comes to the classic AE 109's

Loved those speakers and should have kep my last set!

We had to buy a pair off Ebay recently for reference as we'd sold them all and never kept the originals! Pretty much everyone liked the 109's and listening to them again last year - yep they're still great speakers! Coloured but musical - which, at the end of the day, is probably the most overlooked yet important aspect of a good piece of Hi-Fi! We'll see how the new Neo's stack up when we're done making them...

Oh I loved them. I'm watching a few sets currently on various forums. It may be that I'll have to travel to collect them but they're worth getting at the prices they go for currently!

The NEO 3's are superb as well and I've recommended them to a number of people on here. They're true, classic designed speakers.

 

[drummerman]

AEJim:
Speaker technology hasn't changed vastly since it first came about, if they were good speakers 15 years ago, the chances are that they are still good now! As long as there's no damage/wear that needs repair you can find some great 2nd-hand bargains - and that goes for most Hi-Fi.

The main thing that changes is fashion, both visibly and audibly - in the 70's it was trendy to have wide, shallow boxes with large drivers, through the 80's-90's that evolved into deep and narrow with smaller drivers (mainly because visually they seem smaller as you face them, in reality they probably take up more of your room with this modern configuration).

Audibly those older, larger drivers and big boxes usually resulted in a warmer sound with less detail, whereas newer models tend to be brighter and more "in your face" - much of what you will like will go down to personal preference and room positioning/partnering equipment. As I said originally, don't discount older speakers as being worse than new ones - the fact is you can buy higher-end models for less 2nd-hand so the trade off in any marginal technology improvements over the years is offset by that used price. It is harder to get a demo before you buy though!

Nice, honest and unbiased advise, especially coming from a manufacturer. Wished AJ would have taken this road more often, as much as I like the little man and I do respect him.

 

[AEJim]

d_a_n1979:AEJim:
d_a_n1979:As above

More so when it comes to the classic AE 109's

Loved those speakers and should have kep my last set!

We had to buy a pair off Ebay recently for reference as we'd sold them all and never kept the originals! Pretty much everyone liked the 109's and listening to them again last year - yep they're still great speakers! Coloured but musical - which, at the end of the day, is probably the most overlooked yet important aspect of a good piece of Hi-Fi! We'll see how the new Neo's stack up when we're done making them...

Oh I loved them. I'm watching a few sets currently on various forums. It may be that I'll have to travel to collect them but they're worth getting at the prices they go for currently!The NEO 3's are superb as well and I've recommended them to a number of people on here. They're true, classic designed speakers.

Absolutely worth getting hold of a pair, a very "meaty" sounding speaker and I've not heard anything at the budget end currently that can match them for sheer bass thump - the feel it in your chest kind. They are great for rock/funk - not so much for classical but the weight still gives them real scale. Like you said - the 100's also had a lovely smooth n' solid sound.

The new Neo's we've been working on are largely a cosmetic re-vamp with some crossover tweaks - technically we think they're still ahead of the competition at the budget end (we always give the current faves a go in the office) but the original look really held them back. We spent all the money on Neo magnets, cast chassis etc and had nothing left in the kitty to style them up! The new look is very subtle but far classier - better vinyl, removed the odd rads at the top of the cabs and put a full-sized bass-driver chassis in (don't even know why a cropped one was used in the first place!), oh and the trendy magnetic grilles too! The crossover tweaks were just to re-balance a little, hence listening to the 109's - the paper drivers have some really nice characteristics we just can't match with Alloy but with that said the same is true of the Alloy vs paper cone... They're very new and this is probably the first time anyone outside AE/distributors will have heard about them! Had some in our meeting room at Bristol (next to demo room) but think I only showed one non-distributor!

Will let WHF have all the info when proper production arrives of course and send some review sets out!

 

[AEJim]

drummerman:AEJim:
Speaker technology hasn't changed vastly since it first came about, if they were good speakers 15 years ago, the chances are that they are still good now! As long as there's no damage/wear that needs repair you can find some great 2nd-hand bargains - and that goes for most Hi-Fi.

The main thing that changes is fashion, both visibly and audibly - in the 70's it was trendy to have wide, shallow boxes with large drivers, through the 80's-90's that evolved into deep and narrow with smaller drivers (mainly because visually they seem smaller as you face them, in reality they probably take up more of your room with this modern configuration).

Audibly those older, larger drivers and big boxes usually resulted in a warmer sound with less detail, whereas newer models tend to be brighter and more "in your face" - much of what you will like will go down to personal preference and room positioning/partnering equipment. As I said originally, don't discount older speakers as being worse than new ones - the fact is you can buy higher-end models for less 2nd-hand so the trade off in any marginal technology improvements over the years is offset by that used price. It is harder to get a demo before you buy though!

Nice, honest and unbiased advise, especially coming from a manufacturer. Wished AJ would have taken this road more often, as much as I like the little man and I do respect him.

Aye, Ashley is a good man (gave me my lab series CD+amp I still use at home today!) but very opinionated which doesn't always go with the grain - to be honest most engineers are exactly the same, if they didn't have that drive and belief in what they were doing then the World would have missed out on many of it's greatest inventions!

 

[Anonymous]

AEJim:
How about Mission 752's? they're a fairly compact, front-ported floorstander and should give a bit more warmth than the 751's, the old 2-way floorstanders are another dying breed that generally work very well (hard sell as they're usually the "middle child" of a range). There's a whole world of classic hi-fi if you look around and do some research - you might come across something you've never heard of that really floats your boat! (used to have some Royd Minstrels, tiny tiny floorstanders with surprisingly low bass - a little on the bright side tweeter-wise but great in a small room as side-ported and about 20cm deep!)ÿ

I thought floorstanders might be a bit bassy and look a bit big for the room - room is 3.5m x 2.5m with wooden floor and not much furnishing. It's a thought however.

What about Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 1 in combination with my Cyrus amp and Marantz CDP? What sort of price point did they come in at when new and what kind of sound are they?

Again - thanks for your advice.

 

[AEJim]

athenry:AEJim:
How about Mission 752's? they're a fairly compact, front-ported floorstander and should give a bit more warmth than the 751's, the old 2-way floorstanders are another dying breed that generally work very well (hard sell as they're usually the "middle child" of a range). There's a whole world of classic hi-fi if you look around and do some research - you might come across something you've never heard of that really floats your boat! (used to have some Royd Minstrels, tiny tiny floorstanders with surprisingly low bass - a little on the bright side tweeter-wise but great in a small room as side-ported and about 20cm deep!)

I thought floorstanders might be a bit bassy and look a bit big for the room - room is 3.5m x 2.5m with wooden floor and not much furnishing. It's a thought however.

What about Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 1 in combination with my Cyrus amp and Marantz CDP? What sort of price point did they come in at when new and what kind of sound are they?

Again - thanks for your advice.

They would be fine, though I'd bung the port if they're going closer than 6" to a wall (anything will do as you'll want to completely stop the port to seal the box, old sock etc!) - you get about a 6dB increase at the bass end (approx) by putting them up against a wall and that's about what you'll lose by blocking the port. The character will change but same could be said for most speakers in the same position.

Acoustically they are very pleasant speakers, warm like the 100 series but with a little more sparkle at the top - I'd imagine the Cyrus/Marantz combo has a similar balance which could end up a little on the bright side, but in a small room and positioned as mentioned above you'll probably have it about right! Original RRP was £180 so they can probably be picked up for peanuts now.

 

[matthewpiano]

The 751s are much better than the MS 902i. I've got both, and the Missions sound substantially more mature and refined and the atmosphere they create with a good amp behind them is almost palpable. They are not a particularly lightweight sounding speaker if mounted on good stands although, obviously the 752s would give you more heft.

 

[postup]

Hi d_a_n,

just for curiosity's sake, what was your amplification and CD while you had them 109s? What would be your preferences today, if you stll had them, but needed amp/CD?

Some time I posted here asking advice on CD/amp for 10 year-old AE 109s, got some useful replies, but still have't made my move.... Did not want to hijack the forum any more for (discontinued) speakers anyway.

Q. for Mr. Luce: Could you please add some suggestion re. amp/CD for 109s? Just a general opinion about the type of sound amp/CD should have, if your company policy is not to endorse any particular brands.

Many thanks, postup

 

[Anonymous]

The old B&W DM2 (first version) are a real bargain nowadays .... they have the same tweeters and supertweeters as the old Spendor BC1 and are 3 way transmission speakers (hand built by B&W) ...

sadly, they need a bit of space behind the speakers and think that your room may too small for these

even better are the old IMF TLS 80 transmission speakers (4-way hand built transmissions) ... prices are getting higher all the time and they now sell for approx £600 for a good pair .... I think that you would have to spend more than £2000+ to get better (new) ... these are very large and need a decent sized listening room

 

[the record spot]

You've good reason to appreciate the appeal of the 751 athenry; excellent little speaker. Actually, it's not that small in fairness being rather deep as well as quite tall for a standmount; certainly more to it than the Dali Lektor 2 for example.

Sound quality is very easy on the ear, as in it paints the whole picture clearly, with good detail and in an enjoyably musical way. Not sure how it would go with Cyrus amps, but you may be able to try them out if you get the chance beforehand.

Owned a pair in the 1990s and they were excellent - now have the 752 and can recommend those too. In fact, the whole 75 series was a star for Mission. Designed by Henry Azima and they represent - for me anyway - the pinnacle of the company's efforts. The original design is worth hunting down, i.e. pre-Freedom version.

 

[d_a_n1979]

postup:
Hi d_a_n,

just for curiosity's sake, what was your amplification and CD while you had them 109s? What would be your preferences today, if you stll had them, but needed amp/CD?

Some time I posted here asking advice on CD/amp for 10 year-old AE 109s, got some useful replies, but still have't made my move.... Did not want to hijack the forum any more for (discontinued) speakers anyway.

Q. for Mr. Luce: Could you please add some suggestion re. amp/CD for 109s? Just a general opinion about the type of sound amp/CD should have, if your company policy is not to endorse any particular brands.

Many thanks, postup

I had the Arcam Alpha 6 Plus integrated amp and the Arcam Alpha 5 CDP. Brilliant sound, smooth but musical and plenty of oomph

I then upgraded to the Arcam Alpha 7 amp which was ok but lacked a little so then decided to go for it and bought the Arcam Alpha 8 integrated along with the Arcam Alpha 8P power amp and the Arcam Alpha 7SE CDP

I like Arcam by the way; if you hadnt of guessed

The Arcam gear always suited my musical tastes and still does even though I've got NAD & Rega as my Hifi system along with B&W speakers.

The only reason I went from Arcam and AE speakers was because I moved out and rented a flat and the system was too much so ended up with a NAD C320BEE integrated paired with B&W 602 S2 speakers (again; superb combo).

I think if you were to go for the AE 109's or maybe the AE Neo 3's then I'd definitly take a look at the Arcam Alpha 9 or 10 integrated amps along side the Arcam Alpha 8SE CDP or the Arcam DiVA 72 CDP. The NAD C320BEE integrated amp would also be worth considering. It was a superb amp then and it still is now IMO.

The mentioned Arcam amps and CDP's were out the same time as the AE 109's and their bigger brothers; the 120's (which I demo'd a number of times but never thought they were as good as the 109's).

 

[Anonymous]

OK, definitely worth considering 2nd hand such as Acoustic Energy or Mission 751 / 752 speakers then. In some ways it seems like a potentially more interesting journey than opting for new ones so maybe it's the way to go. We'll see what happens but, meantime, thanks to all for taking the time to advise - I really appreciate it.

 

[d_a_n1979]

I'd say so yes but with the price theyre at currently; dont rule out the AE Neo 3's! They'd do very well with your Cyrus amp and CDP.

They'll provide a superb soundstage; great bass depth that's punchy and taut along side detailed midrange and crisp/clear treble.

They'll also be as much or cheaper than standmount speakers on stands etc...

Just because theyre floorstanding speakers doesnt mean you'll have them up full blast all the time

 

[d_a_n1979]

I'd say so yes but with the price theyre at currently; dont rule out the AE Neo 3's! They'd do very well with your Cyrus amp and CDP.

They'll provide a superb soundstage; great bass depth that's punchy and taut along side detailed midrange and crisp/clear treble.

They'll also be as much or cheaper than standmount speakers on stands etc...

Just because theyre floorstanding speakers doesnt mean you'll have them up full blast all the time

 

[d_a_n1979]

I'd say so yes but with the price theyre at currently; dont rule out the AE Neo 3's! They'd do very well with your Cyrus amp and CDP.

They'll provide a superb soundstage; great bass depth that's punchy and taut along side detailed midrange and crisp/clear treble.

They'll also be as much or cheaper than standmount speakers on stands etc...

Just because theyre floorstanding speakers doesnt mean you'll have them up full blast all the time

 

[Anonymous]

d_a_n1979:I'd say so yes but with the price theyre at currently; dont rule out the AE Neo 3's! They'd do very well with your Cyrus amp and CDP.

They'll provide a superb soundstage; great bass depth that's punchy and taut along side detailed midrange and crisp/clear treble.

They'll also be as much or cheaper than standmount speakers on stands etc...

Just because theyre floorstanding speakers doesnt mean you'll have them up full blast all the time

Thanks for that, but (naive question coming up...) at 170W would my amp be able to drive them? I can't remember offhand but think it's 70 or 80W/ch.