Hi fi bores (audiophiles)

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The graphs you talk about are indeed factual and accurate but they are a measurement. How that translates to one's listening experience will vary from person to person. Reviewers fall short here too. If something doesn't at least match their preconception then it's in for a tough ride. Another review will give a different opinion. The one thing that I think we can all agree on is that the graphs give a good starting point.

not really because you can never translate a graph into a sound you will like, as you admit, and how would you tell a consumer to make a shortlist off graphs. It would be so complicated and lacking any science to what we like. That's why graphs should be ignored. Better to go on reviews, other opinions, and reputation.

 

[CnoEvil]

Getting advice from the person that sells you the product has to be the most unintelligent and naive thing to do.

The difference between a really good dealer and a box shifter, is that good dealers don't try to sell you something that is unsuitable. They play the long game and build relationships....as it's often their own business and livelyhood, so have a vested interest in getting and keeping customers. I'm lucky enough to have such dealers.

 

[Richard Allen]

The graphs you talk about are indeed factual and accurate but they are a measurement. How that translates to one's listening experience will vary from person to person. Reviewers fall short here too. If something doesn't at least match their preconception then it's in for a tough ride. Another review will give a different opinion. The one thing that I think we can all agree on is that the graphs give a good starting point. The most important thing however is to listen with your own ears, not other's opinions. You like it?, you buy it. You don't like it?, don't buy it. It really is as simple as that.

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno, you well know that the number of people on here with sound and sensible knowledge can be counted on one hand so the odds of encountering them are pretty long. Far better to go see the local dealer IMO. I certainly shan't be giving advice on here anymore. Just not worth it.

It's a whole different level of pain if you are in the trade.....and personally I really value that knowledge, so it's a shame when people like yourself feel like that. ....but we seem to be living in a Post Truth era, where experts are sidelined.

Good advice usually entails - find a good dealer; make use of their knowwledge; here are some suggestions based on your criteria; demo.

 

[Vladimir]

It does indeed work both ways. I now feel that if people need advice on a particular product they have bought or are thinking of buying then a trip to their local dealer is the order of the day.

Getting advice from the person that sells you the product has to be the most unintelligent and naive thing to do. In addition employees of HT centers are completely ignorant on all matters of electronics and psychoacoustics. Most don't even know their own product performance specs. You can have them sell carpeting the next day and it wouldn't make any difference to them whatsoever. They are just cattle herders, pushing the carousel for milking and slaughter, keeping it going.

if you are smart, you take advice from the dealer, but balance it with what the manufacturer, other customers (non owners and owners) and reviews say. Then reach your own view after listening and comparing and own preferences into mix too. So to ignore a dealer who can tell you lots about a product as store staff often visit manufacturers etc, is to ignore one source of information for me. Also they can tell you what's selling.

Manufacturer, their dealers and publications (reviewers) have one and only one goal, profit and staying in business. If you are smart you take everything that comes out of their mouths with the outmost skepticism. You expect them not to lie, manipulate and abuse your good will to enter their store, try their gear and read their promo gab. However, they do. A lot. Most information in hi-fi is lies and pretends, simply because the flock is technically ignorant and financially willing. Also the ignorance of sales personell and reviewers is astonishing.

Tit-for-tat

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes and to sell a product you have to be credible as nobody buys into it, so you are doing people a disservice in them thinking what hi reviews are good and relate to products as they are. It a review says a speaker is better on mids and bass than it's predecessor, and it is to your ears, then it's an accurate review. That's what I'm saying if you just ignore the review, then have nothing to benchmark your own findings too.

if you think they are interested in staying in business to the exclusion of all else that means that stuff like reputation, sound quality, credibility, have no importance. And clearly they are important.

They may lie but if you will ask them the question is this £3k amp bettte than a £1k one, or course they will. But how do they have any reason to lie if the reviews big something up, so do customers, and you are choosing between two £1k pairs of speakers in their store. And even if they have a commercial interest, who cares, you make the decision anyway.

I agree with you lots of dealers are unscrupulous for a sale though.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes and to sell a product you have to be credible as nobody buys into it, so you are doing people a disservice in them thinking what hi reviews are good and relate to products as they are. It a review says a speaker is better on mids and bass than it's predecessor, and it is to your ears, then it's an accurate review. That's what I'm saying if you just ignore the review, then have nothing to benchmark your own findings too.

if you think they are interested in staying in business to the exclusion of all else that means that stuff like reputation, sound quality, credibility, have no importance. And clearly they are important.

They may lie but if you will ask them the question is this £3k amp bettte than a £1k one, or course they will. But how do they have any reason to lie if the reviews big something up, so do customers, and you are choosing between two £1k pairs of speakers in their store. And even if they have a commercial interest, who cares, you make the decision anyway.

I agree with you lots of dealers are unscrupulous for a sale though.

Star ratings are both a help and a curse for decent dealers.

They are a help as they "can" put decent products on a buyer's radar.

They are a curse, because consumers get fixated on (subjective) stars (as NP said) and when a dealer wants to get them to try something that is either better, or more suitable.....the customer will only entertain the 5* product and not even try anything else. The dealer makes a sale, but is frustrated that one of his customers may have made the wrong choice.

Every good dealer I have ever met, has come across "The 5* fixation problem".

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes and to sell a product you have to be credible as nobody buys into it, so you are doing people a disservice in them thinking what hi reviews are good and relate to products as they are. It a review says a speaker is better on mids and bass than it's predecessor, and it is to your ears, then it's an accurate review. That's what I'm saying if you just ignore the review, then have nothing to benchmark your own findings too.

if you think they are interested in staying in business to the exclusion of all else that means that stuff like reputation, sound quality, credibility, have no importance. And clearly they are important.

They may lie but if you will ask them the question is this £3k amp bettte than a £1k one, or course they will. But how do they have any reason to lie if the reviews big something up, so do customers, and you are choosing between two £1k pairs of speakers in their store. And even if they have a commercial interest, who cares, you make the decision anyway.

I agree with you lots of dealers are unscrupulous for a sale though.

Star ratings are both a help and a curse for decent dealers.

They are a help as they "can" put decent products on a buyer's radar.

They are a curse, because consumers get fixated on (subjective) stars (as NP said) and when a dealer wants to get them to try something that is either better, or more suitable.....the customer will only entertain the 5* product and not even try anything else. The dealer makes a sale, but is frustrated that one of his customers may have made the wrong choice.

Every good dealer I have ever met, has come across "The 5* fixation problem".

i think you are talking theoretically on your curse, I know plenty of people have gone in thinking one way and come out with a different item. And if people can't make own judgements and go with someone else's preference, without own consideration, more fool them. But I don't really think that happens anyway, most people are pretty infallible. The dealer can't turn people one way, the easiest way to loose customers I'm sure.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes and to sell a product you have to be credible as nobody buys into it, so you are doing people a disservice in them thinking what hi reviews are good and relate to products as they are. It a review says a speaker is better on mids and bass than it's predecessor, and it is to your ears, then it's an accurate review. That's what I'm saying if you just ignore the review, then have nothing to benchmark your own findings too.

if you think they are interested in staying in business to the exclusion of all else that means that stuff like reputation, sound quality, credibility, have no importance. And clearly they are important.

They may lie but if you will ask them the question is this £3k amp bettte than a £1k one, or course they will. But how do they have any reason to lie if the reviews big something up, so do customers, and you are choosing between two £1k pairs of speakers in their store. And even if they have a commercial interest, who cares, you make the decision anyway.

I agree with you lots of dealers are unscrupulous for a sale though.

Star ratings are both a help and a curse for decent dealers.

They are a help as they "can" put decent products on a buyer's radar.

They are a curse, because consumers get fixated on (subjective) stars (as NP said) and when a dealer wants to get them to try something that is either better, or more suitable.....the customer will only entertain the 5* product and not even try anything else. The dealer makes a sale, but is frustrated that one of his customers may have made the wrong choice.

Every good dealer I have ever met, has come across "The 5* fixation problem".

i think you are talking theoretically on your curse, I know plenty of people have gone in thinking one way and come out with a different item. And if people can't make own judgements and go with someone else's preference, without own consideration, more fool them. But I don't really think that happens anyway, most people are pretty infallible. The dealer can't turn people one way, the easiest way to loose customers I'm sure.

 

[Vladimir]

The large HT center floor salesman will push what his store determined needs to sell today, so you will see his obvious bad advices on occassions and feel abused (see BlackSabbath25's thread on subs). Big box electronics stores will be impersonal. This is like a large broiler chicken farm. Prices may be cheaper, but so is the treatment.

An old school brick and mortar hifi store will be personal and nurture a relationship, gain trust, eventually gain more credibility behind their offered advice on what to buy. Eventully you don't suspect anything the seller advizes you. This is not because they are nice people or because it's all about the music, it's organic free range farming. In the end you will spend more and the owner will get bigger margins, employees are hand picked, educated and better paid. But this doesn't mean you got what YOU wanted.

So, you will be fed lies and your money taken either way, only difference is the treatment. The motives are the same in all trade. You are not making music, you are trading.

Or you can learn, make up your own mind and build your own system the way you like it.

 

[CnoEvil]

i think you are talking theoretically on your curse, I know plenty of people have gone in thinking one way and come out with a different item.

I'm afraid it is true.

TBF. The number of people a dealer sees over a year is significantly more than those who you have come across.....and I don't mean that in a nasty way. I'm just making the point that you are unlikely to have met a big enough sample.

It was partly what Richard Allen was getting at with his comment....as they also come on here with a fixed view, as a result of a Star rating from a review that they have read.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes but at least I understand that in a commercial sense. But back to hi fi bores.

Those I don't understand as they've taken boredom to a new level, especially many of those on hi fi wigwam. look at the videos on you tube and there is not one person under about 50. All men. I really would rather stick my head in an oven.

 

[Gaz37]

Don't forget not wanting to look stupid.
If somebody spends big bucks on something, regardless of on whose advice, and then finds it's not quite what they had hoped for, how likely are they to publicly admit their mistake?

 

[Vladimir]

They are instant gratification solution for people who shop at big box electronic stores. They are compatible. Stereophile readership is compatible with B&M hifi shops. Each to their own.

 

[Electro]

The large HT center floor salesman will push what his store determined needs to sell today, so you will see his obvious bad advices on occassions and feel abused (see BlackSabbath25's thread on subs). Big box electronics stores will be impersonal. This is like a large broiler chicken farm. Prices may be cheaper, but so is the treatment.

An old school brick and mortar hifi store will be personal and nurture a relationship, gain trust, eventually gain more credibility behind their offered advice on what to buy. Eventully you don't suspect anything the seller advizes you. This is not because they are nice people or because it's all about the music, it's organic free range farming. In the end you will spend more and the owner will get bigger margins, employees are hand picked, educated and better paid. But this doesn't mean you got what YOU wanted.

So, you will be fed lies and your money taken either way, only difference is the treatment. The motives are the same in all trade. You are not making music, you are trading.

Or you can learn, make up your own mind and build your own system the way you like it.

This is the only way to get it right ( most of the time *smile* ) and is exactly what I have done.

Dealers are very useful and a good relationship with one makes things far easier, advise from forum experts should be taken with a pinch of salt but can still be helpful.

The number one thing you need to work out before you start is what you want any system to do for you so that you can aim for that goal, other wise it becomes a futile and soul destroying journey of dissapointment imo .

Love the Tiger Vlad !

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The thing is with these people into obscure makes of hi fi that most have never heard of, and they tend to be the bores i talk of on hi fi wigwam website (not all of them) with brands like this, they will not concede that some commercial brands are better. And the people who spend a lot, i agree too. I'm man enough to realise what parts of my hi fi people won't like, as much as the bits I do. But I'd never say it's perfect, as no hi fi is.

 

[Vladimir]

People who only choose 5 star reviewed kit, auditioned at B&Ms, bought at big box electronics stores. *biggrin*

 

[lindsayt]

The thing is with these people into obscure makes of hi fi that most have never heard of, and they tend to be the bores i talk of on hi fi wigwam website (not all of them) with brands like this, they will not concede that some commercial brands are better. And the people who spend a lot, i agree too. I'm man enough to realise what parts of my hi fi people won't like, as much as the bits I do. But I'd never say it's perfect, as no hi fi is.

That's me. Last few times I've been into a dealer and they've asked me what I've got and I've replied with stuff like "EMT, Studer, Tube Audio Lab Korneff clone, Coincident, Electro Voice, Bozak.." and they've just looked at me in a complete blank.

Maybe they think I'm pulling their leg or something?

Like when I tell them my name is Lindsay...

And as for spending a lot, I've been telling my daughter that hi-fi forums and the Scalford show will be great places for her to meet a husband when she gets older. And that she needs to set minimum standards: if they've spent less than £100,000 on their system they can go fish.

 

[lindsayt]

It does indeed work both ways. I now feel that if people need advice on a particular product they have bought or are thinking of buying then a trip to their local dealer is the order of the day.

The last time I went to a dealer I went to Sevenoaks in Wetherby to enquire about an Atmos receiver.

He asked me what speakers I'd be using. So I told him. He then started describing the sound of my 45 year old speakers with him saying "We don't sell speakers like that any more as no one wants that kind of sound any more" and then going on to describe them having some sort of fuzzy, woolly, unfocused, vintagey, pipe and slippers sound. *wacko*

I found the whole visit bizarre.

 

[davidf]

The last time I went to a dealer I went to Sevenoaks in Wetherby to enquire about an Atmos receiver.

He asked me what speakers I'd be using. So I told him. He then started describing the sound of my 45 year old speakers with him saying "We don't sell speakers like that any more as no one wants that kind of sound any more" and then going on to describe them having some sort of fuzzy, woolly, unfocused, vintagey, pipe and slippers sound. *wacko*

I found the whole visit bizarre.

Maybe he saw through your ruse and was trying to wind you up...

(i.e., you don't seem the surroundy sound sort)

 

[lindsayt]

I bought my Atmos receiver via mail order from Peter Tysons a couple of weeks after visiting Sevenoaks.

It gets a lot of use - for watching TV and Blu rays.

 

[Leif]

I've just spent half an hour composing a comment, only for the system to hang when I tried to insert an emoticon. What a bad forum.

Having read the first post, I can't see how the OP can complain about being insulted, since it contains little more than personal abuse and bigotry. If he/she was more open minded, and less set in his/her ways, he/she would see Scalford and other meets as a great opportunity to hear a range of kit, and meet people. I speak as an owner of modest kit, who regards a lot of the hifi world as snake oil.

As for WHF reviews, they bear little correlation to my own experiences of gear I have demo'ed or own. And they are written in an opaque and largely meaningless language.

I wonder if the OP is SpringerSpaniel from the HFW forum?

 

[chebby]

Mistaken post.

 

[Leif]

Seems to me, as a personal opinion,that any one who visits a site such as this making the comments you have done implies that you have some deep seated issues. Or are you someone who for some reason has a smug suppiority complex who wishes to belittle others who only wish to give helpful advice.

I agree. I had not read through the entire thread before making my previous post. Life is too short for this nonsense.

 

[Freddy58]

I wonder if the OP is SpringerSpaniel from the HFW forum?

He is indeed.