Have Audiolab any chance of reviving their amplifier glory days?

[drummerman]

They seemed to have done well with their digital products, not so much with amplfiers.

Back in the 80's and into the 90's, they were the foreword for good, relatively affordable products. (I did own a 8000S when it first came out ... didn't like it though but I was probably in the minority).

These days ... well, some decent review but rarely mentioned here even though an 8200A can be had for less than £500 and their little M-Pwr Stereo looks an interesting proposition for a small stereo.

Is it about to change with their new 8300A?

Slightly more power, a phone stage, sleek looks in a creek sort of way (or should that be the other way round?).

No on-board DAC's, streaming, Bluetooth etc. just a good ol' school integrated.

Yours for 900 quid (probably substantially less within 6 months of launch) it kinda fits in with the rest of the amplifier scene.

Touch of class or opportunity missed?

 

[jonathanRD]

About a month or so ago I popped into my local dealer and said that I had plans to look for a new amp circa the £1000 mark. Rega and Naim were mentioned first (Naim described as like marmite), and then Audiolab mentioned as an afterthought with a comment that they had 'fallen behind' the first two mentioned. No mention at all of the Arcam 29 they stock too.

So at circa £900 the new Audiolab has some direct rivals, plus one or two others if I drive across the Severn Bridge.

When are they due in the shops?

 

[CnoEvil]

I never got on with the 8000A from back in the day. I found it rather thin, gutless and uninvolving. Mind you, I didn't like the original Naim Nait or Mission Cyrus 11.

 

[Esra]

Pretty satisfied with my 8200MB´s, and 8200P.In fact I think they offer very good performance/price ratio like better known products from Audiolab.But they have some qualtity control issues I think.I had 1 CDQ,8200P and 1 8200MB to RMA and got new ones as exchange,thumps up for that.Also saw a batch of M-Dacs with wrong silver shading which didn´t fit to the rest of the line.

MB´s do partner ex. very well with the bigger R-Series Kef (700/900),much better than usually recommened Arcams imo..

The 8200P is more laid back and "darker" and does well with speakers little bit on the bright/exciting side like some Dali (Zensor/Lektor) or MA BX,and some RX.

I also didn´t like the integrated 8200A,never found a speaker really well with it.

Generally the amps offer a lot of power/current and I like speakers running full of juice.

 

[matthewpiano]

Whenever I've heard Audiolab amplification I've enjoyed it. I once had an 8000S on home demo and struggled to part with it, and I've heard the 8200A a few times and thought it excellent.

Best of all, I've heard the Audiolab monoblocks driving B&W PM1s and it was a stunning combination with incredible amounts of insight.

I've got high hopes for the new 8300A and would consider one at some point in the future.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Audiolab have it hard.

Their specs are not outrageous enough!

I had the 8200a on home demo but I'm convinced it was damaged so didn't sound right. So maybe their quality control is the true cause of their fall from grace. Alot of mixed reviews on the net.

They do make very handsome kit though (look great in the rack) and I'm surprised the new 8300a lacks an earphone stage - the one on the 8200a was genuinely excellent.

But 75watts on paper compared with 175watts (que thunder and lightening) of the Hegels and price comparible Roksans will not cut it.

Using cheap looking speaker terminals will also hurt.

Funnily enough the new 8300a looks like a Hegel now.

If anyone is ready to compare them to the likes of Hegels I'd suggest you do it blind.

 

[Frank Harvey]

It'll be interesting to hear the new 8300A (had a chance but didn't!), and to see if it can square up to the current competition. Granted, the 8200A wasn't the strong point in the 8200 range, but it looks like Audiolab have put a bit of thought into the new one and added a few useful features.

I always liked the 8000A and still use one in a secondary system.

 

[drummerman]

Audiolab have it hard.

Their specs are not outrageous enough!

I had the 8200a on home demo but I'm convinced it was damaged so didn't sound right. So maybe their quality control is the true cause of their fall from grace. Alot of mixed reviews on the net.

They do make very handsome kit though (look great in the rack) and I'm surprised the new 8300a lacks an earphone stage - the one on the 8200a was genuinely excellent.

But 75watts on paper compared with 175watts (que thunder and lightening) of the Hegels and price comparible Roksans will not cut it.

Using cheap looking speaker terminals will also hurt.

Funnily enough the new 8300a looks like a Hegel now.

If anyone is ready to compare them to the likes of Hegels I'd suggest you do it blind.

What 175w/ch Hegel can you buy for the price of an 8300a? - Roksan's K3 is £1250.

Roksan's outgoing K2BT is around £675 whilst Audiolab's 8200A can be had for £499.

Beside, 70 watts or thereabout is plenty to drive most price comparable speakers to very high levels indeed. 20 watts with some dynamic headroom is probably all most people need most of the time unless you run a night club, are near deaf or have ultra inefficient speakers.

 

[Rethep]

In the early 90's i auditioned the 8000C/8000P pre/end amp combination! Sorry to say but it was like watching paint dry! Very, very boring. And i had super speakers like the Epos ES-11 (one of their best!) and Meridian 206B CD-player!

I must say that no trannie amp could really shine this combination and in the end i turned to (meanwhile) 3 different tube-amps. I finally found what i was looking for with the current one meanwhile (again) completed by a very good set of speakers. Very satisfied now!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The 8300a is about the £1000 mark.

Which is in the Roksans price bracket - the Hegels is a brand thing it being the 'choice' of reference, the h80 is the 8300a price competitor but the Hegel brand is what's casting shadows.

20watts May be all you need but bigger figures are now what's being pushed.....

 

[drummerman]

Adding to the subject of damping factor;

Hegel quote 4000 ... I do wonder if that would be acurate under bench tests ... .

Even a damping factor of 60 is deemed relatively high. Enough to control most unruly speakers with low inherent acoustic damping. - 100 is high.

Use a speaker which has high damping and something like a Naim can add a little bit bass warmth to what otherwise could be a very dry and lean overdamped sound.

Naims typically have a factor of around 12, decent valve amplifiers perhaps half or less of that.

 

[drummerman]

The 8300a is about the £1000 mark.

Which is in the Roksans price bracket - the Hegels is a brand thing it being the 'choice' of reference, the h80 is the 8300a price competitor but the Hegel brand is what's casting shadows.

20watts May be all you need but bigger figures are now what's being pushed.....

The Audiolab will launch at £900.

The Hegel H80 is around £1300 as is the Roksan K3.

Not the same price bracket. - As to 'reference', it may well be for some people, others will disagree and choose valves/other products.

Like I said before, not everyone needs/wants a super high damping factor amplifier. With the wrong speakers this could result in a not so nice sound ... . Neither does everyone require tripple digit wattage though I admit that if I had a choice between two equally good amplifiers at the same price ... I'd have the one with more power. - Reality has shown that this is not always the case though and things are often not equal.

To give you another example, Abrahamsen (and others, Musical Fidelity's behemot ClassA monsters to name one) take another path. Not so much power but an over engineered supply.

I don't see the Audiolab competing with £1300 amplifiers but with for example a Naim Nait 5si, Cyrus 6, Creek Evo 50A, Abrahamsen etc etc.

Facility wise, the Audiolab may superficially lack behind others and will have to be outstanding on sound quality alone. - For me, it lacks a headphone socket, the most serious omission (the Hegel H80 doesn't have one either) but the 8300 has a MM/MC phono stage which has to be applauded plus it has balanced XLR.

Internally it looks like a completely new design, dual mono layout (with a shared good sized transformer).

Manufacturers claimed distortion figures look good but not unusual. A cyrus for example measures better. How much that matters during use ... probably little.

I hope for Audiolab that it does well, even if I am not the brands biggest fan.

 

[SteveR750]

Adding to the subject of damping factor;

Hegel quote 4000 ... I do wonder if that would be acurate under bench tests ... .

Even a damping factor of 60 is deemed relatively high. Enough to control most unruly speakers with low inherent acoustic damping. - 100 is high.

Use a speaker which has high damping and something like a Naim can add a little bit bass warmth to what otherwise could be a very dry and lean overdamped sound.?

Naims typically have a factor of around 12, decent valve amplifiers perhaps half or less of that.

How can you have an "over damped" sound? Either the driver follows precisely the electrical waveform, or it doesn't. The failure to do so can be as a result of overshoot or cone break up as two examples. Damping factor of the amp helps prevent the former form of distortion. A driver that has a better damped suspension will require less electrical Damping, but it's still required if you wish it accurately track the signal. Ported designs exacerbate this requirement, since they rely on using the resonance of the driver/air mass spring to boost low bass output. It's arguable a "warm" bass as a result of low Damping is simply distortion, nothing wrong with that if it's the sound profile you prefer of course.

 

[Jota180]

Damping factor changes with the drivers frequency as it's resistance varies with frequency. No amp gives a steady xDamping Factor across the range. There's a formula for damping factor and it includes the speakers resistance and resistance in the cable as well as something from the amp. I'm no physicist mind!

 

[SteveR750]

Here.

 

[drummerman]

Adding to the subject of damping factor;

Hegel quote 4000 ... I do wonder if that would be acurate under bench tests ... .

Even a damping factor of 60 is deemed relatively high. Enough to control most unruly speakers with low inherent acoustic damping. - 100 is high.

Use a speaker which has high damping and something like a Naim can add a little bit bass warmth to what otherwise could be a very dry and lean overdamped sound.

Naims typically have a factor of around 12, decent valve amplifiers perhaps half or less of that.

How can you have an "over damped" sound? Either the driver follows precisely the electrical waveform, or it doesn't. The failure to do so can be as a result of overshoot or cone break up as two examples. Damping factor of the amp helps prevent the former form of distortion. A driver that has a better damped suspension will require less electrical Damping, but it's still required if you wish it accurately track the signal. Ported designs exacerbate this requirement, since they rely on using the resonance of the driver/air mass spring to boost low bass output. It's arguable a "warm" bass as a result of low Damping is simply distortion, nothing wrong with that if it's the sound profile you prefer of course.

Of course you can.

Ask a technician, sound engineer or countless theorists on this forum and a flat response coupled with total driver control (think active) is 'perfect'.

Ask some musicians (and hardened hifi users of many years) and the answer may not be so clear cut.

I think, personally, I am somewhere in between. Having heard Genelecs and in particular the first iteration of AVI's ADM, now using cyrus and in the past also valve amplification, I know when I hear 'overdamped'.

More accurate in a technical sense perhaps, more musical ... not always. It's subjective so I wouldn't expect everyone to agree with me but to those out there contemplating spending money on a Hegel, similar or a single ended triode ... be aware the results may not be quite to your liking unless you match carefully.

Just because something has very high damping and is on paper more acurate doesn't mean it is necesseraly nicer to listen to.

My argument was not whether it is better per se to have a '4000' damping factor, it may be on occasions, depending on the transducer used/listener preference, but whether that is really a desirable feature full stop.

Needless to say, it isn't.

 

[SteveR750]

Adding to the subject of damping factor;

Hegel quote 4000 ... I do wonder if that would be acurate under bench tests ... .

Even a damping factor of 60 is deemed relatively high. Enough to control most unruly speakers with low inherent acoustic damping. - 100 is high.

Use a speaker which has high damping and something like a Naim can add a little bit bass warmth to what otherwise could be a very dry and lean overdamped sound.

Naims typically have a factor of around 12, decent valve amplifiers perhaps half or less of that.

How can you have an "over damped" sound? Either the driver follows precisely the electrical waveform, or it doesn't. The failure to do so can be as a result of overshoot or cone break up as two examples. Damping factor of the amp helps prevent the former form of distortion. A driver that has a better damped suspension will require less electrical Damping, but it's still required if you wish it accurately track the signal. Ported designs exacerbate this requirement, since they rely on using the resonance of the driver/air mass spring to boost low bass output. It's arguable a "warm" bass as a result of low Damping is simply distortion, nothing wrong with that if it's the sound profile you prefer of course.

Of course you can.

Just because something has very high damping and is on paper more acurate doesn't mean it is necesseraly nicer to listen to.

My argument was not whether it is better per se to have a '4000' damping factor, it may be on occasions, depending on the transducer used/listener preference, but whether that is really a desirable feature full stop.

Needless to say, it isn't.

Indeed! We said the same thing, but that's accepting distortion is more pleasant than distortion-free; which for domestic hi-fi is a perfectly reasonable approach if that's your preference! It's only right or wrong if it's in a studio. It's a bit like the bit-perfect argument. Should I set up my Media player to be bit perfect, or should I apply some EQ because it sounds better in my room. The latter is arguably adding distortion, just comes down to whether is sounds good or not. Listening to music in your home is an apreciation of art, in whatever abstract form that takes, and is not necessarily an exercise in technical accuracy. I just happen to like the sound of bass that's as tight as the proverbial, because then I can better hear what is being played.

 

[drummerman]

Adding to the subject of damping factor;

Hegel quote 4000 ... I do wonder if that would be acurate under bench tests ... .

Even a damping factor of 60 is deemed relatively high. Enough to control most unruly speakers with low inherent acoustic damping. - 100 is high.

Use a speaker which has high damping and something like a Naim can add a little bit bass warmth to what otherwise could be a very dry and lean overdamped sound.

Naims typically have a factor of around 12, decent valve amplifiers perhaps half or less of that.

How can you have an "over damped" sound? Either the driver follows precisely the electrical waveform, or it doesn't. The failure to do so can be as a result of overshoot or cone break up as two examples. Damping factor of the amp helps prevent the former form of distortion. A driver that has a better damped suspension will require less electrical Damping, but it's still required if you wish it accurately track the signal. Ported designs exacerbate this requirement, since they rely on using the resonance of the driver/air mass spring to boost low bass output. It's arguable a "warm" bass as a result of low Damping is simply distortion, nothing wrong with that if it's the sound profile you prefer of course.

Of course you can.

Just because something has very high damping and is on paper more acurate doesn't mean it is necesseraly nicer to listen to.

My argument was not whether it is better per se to have a '4000' damping factor, it may be on occasions, depending on the transducer used/listener preference, but whether that is really a desirable feature full stop.

Needless to say, it isn't.

Indeed! We said the same thing, but that's accepting distortion is more pleasant than distortion-free; which for domestic hi-fi is a perfectly reasonable approach if that's your preference! It's only right or wrong if it's in a studio. It's a bit like the bit-perfect argument. Should I set up my Media player to be bit perfect, or should I apply some EQ because it sounds better in my room. The latter is arguably adding distortion, just comes down to whether is sounds good or not. Listening to music in your home is an apreciation of art, in whatever abstract form that takes, and is not necessarily an exercise in technical accuracy. I just happen to like the sound of bass that's as tight as the proverbial, because then I can better hear what is being played.

Yup, I am with you. No right or wrong (unless its for studio mixing).

I've added to my previous post before I saw your reply so you may have to re-read but yes, we are in agreement

 

[Rethep]

I have read (Hifi yearbook 1973) that a damping factor of 20 is sufficient! Above that number is totally unnessary. Amps with lower damping factor (like tube-amps) sound better, 'more free', more loose. they will not sound as bass-tight as a ss-amp, but that's about the only thing. I think mine has a damping factor of 10 or so, which is very high for a tube-amp. Bass is relatively strong!

Damping factor is frequency dependent but mostly important in the lower regions of the spectrum, only. You can add the influence of cables but that is about nothing with just plain, thick enough, copper cable. If you buy a good set of equipment first, you don't need expensive, exclusive cables.

Considering distortion it is important to know that the distortion of a speaker is about 1 to 2 %. So, much more than most amps.

By the way, the Audiolab is not a bad amp in combination with some spacious sounding speakers.

 

[drummerman]

I have read (Hifi yearbook 1973) that a damping factor of 20 is sufficient! Above that number is totally unnessary. Amps with lower damping factor (like tube-amps) sound better, 'more free', more loose. they will not sound as bass-tight as a ss-amp, but that's about the only thing. I think mine has a damping factor of 10 or so, which is very high for a tube-amp. Bass is relatively strong!

Damping factor is frequency dependent but mostly important in the lower regions of the spectrum, only. You can add the influence of cables but that is about nothing with just plain, thick enough, copper cable. If you buy a good set of equipment first, you don't need expensive, exclusive cables.

Considering distortion it is important to know that the distortion of a speaker is about 1 to 2 %. So, much more than most amps.

By the way, the Audiolab is not a bad amp in combination with some spacious sounding speakers.

It is not uncommon to be higher than that and port distortion is often substantial.

I also agree that a 'damping factor 4000' is probably totally unneccessary and mostly hypothetical. We also have no idea how they have arrived at that number (or do we?). It is obviously a well engineered product and well reviewed so I certainly wouldn't get to hung up about it but I think its plain obvious that this is an amplifier designed to control speakers vigorously ... something to keep in mind depending on your preferences/speakers used.

There is the other chestnut of high negative feedback being traditionally used to gain high electrical damping. High negative feedback being also associated with certain undesirable traits in sound reproduction but I guess by the acronyms used by Hegel (and favorable reviews) they have found another way of getting those high Damping figures?

 

[Jota180]

Here.

It's not as cut and dried as the marketing men would have us all believe.

http://www.butleraudio.com/damping1.php

 

[Jota180]

I have read (Hifi yearbook 1973) that a damping factor of 20 is sufficient! Above that number is totally unnessary. Amps with lower damping factor (like tube-amps) sound better, 'more free', more loose. they will not sound as bass-tight as a ss-amp, but that's about the only thing. I think mine has a damping factor of 10 or so, which is very high for a tube-amp. Bass is relatively strong!

Damping factor is frequency dependent but mostly important in the lower regions of the spectrum, only. You can add the influence of cables but that is about nothing with just plain, thick enough, copper cable. If you buy a good set of equipment first, you don't need expensive, exclusive cables.

Considering distortion it is important to know that the distortion of a speaker is about 1 to 2 %. So, much more than most amps.

By the way, the Audiolab is not a bad amp in combination with some spacious sounding speakers.

It is not uncommon to be higher than that and port distortion is often substantial.

I also agree that a 'damping factor 4000' is probably totally unneccessary and mostly hypothetical. We also have no idea how they have arrived at that number (or do we?). It is obviously a well engineered product and well reviewed so I certainly wouldn't get to hung up about it but I think its plain obvious that this is an amplifier designed to control speakers vigorously ... something to keep in mind depending on your preferences/speakers used.

There is the other chestnut of high negative feedback being traditionally used to gain high electrical damping. High negative feedback being also associated with certain undesirable traits in sound reproduction but I guess by the acronyms used by Hegel (and favorable reviews) they have found another way of getting those high Damping figures?

Since damping factor is a ratio of things it cannot be a single figure when at least one part of the ratio fluctuates.

It's not a 'real world' figure because it does not take into account the different impedances of all the speakers, cables and even the crossovers out there or that every single speaker has a fluctuating impedence itself.

 

[Vladimir]

Damping factor doesn't 'dampen the sound'. It's a marketing term for output impedance, which if low enough it means the amplifier is not reactive to the feedback current coming from the speakers when the driver cones come back into position. A high enough damping factor (or low enough output impedance) means an amplifier will not alter the original frequency response of the incoming signal, just amplify it. One step closer to a straight wire with gain, as Peter Walker of Quad would say. It's about what it doesn't do.

Some people would call tasteless pure water boring to them and opt out for flavored variants. No qualms with personal tastes. However, if the hobby is about finding the purest water possible, you may have run in circles a bit. But the worst kind are those that look for pure water by mixing tastes in order to cancel eachother out somehow. If-it's-salty-add-sugar-in-it type of cookery. Although I have to admit cooking can be fun.

But before the flava boyz ***** me out, I have to rant over the purists. 4000? Really? Why buy a divers watch that goes to 1000m deep when you can barely swim or dive at all? Rather pointless from practical POV but at least it is some indication that the designers have breached the threshold of usability (50m or 100m). In damping factor speak, the rule of x10 applies (speaker impedance should be 10 time bigger than amp Zout) and DF above 40 is good, 80 or 100 is beyond needed. 4000? Great for the brochure.

I have a 1000 DF Japanese amp and I can't hear any audible advantages over my ~100 DF amps regarding control or being overdamped or sounding thin and dry. But I guess if silver plated copper sounds brighter than plain copper to you, 4000 DF would probably make your blonde hair rise up like a mohawk.

(a rant without car analogies, appreciate it)

 

[SteveR750]

Damping factor doesn't 'dampen the sound'. It's a marketing term for output impedance, which if low enough it means the amplifier is not reactive to the feedback current coming from the speakers when the driver cones come back into position. A high enough damping factor (or low enough output impedance) means an amplifier will not alter the original frequency response of the incoming signal, just amplify it. One step closer to a straight wire with gain, as Peter Walker of Quad would say. It's about what it doesn't do.

Some people would call tasteless pure water boring to them and opt out for flavored variants. No qualms with personal tastes. However, if the hobby is about finding the purest water possible, you may have run in circles a bit. But the worst kind are those that look for pure water by mixing tastes in order to cancel eachother out somehow. If-it's-salty-add-sugar-in-it type of cookery. Although I have to admit cooking can be fun.

But before the flava boyz ***** me out, I have to rant over the purists. 4000? Really? Why buy a divers watch that goes to 1000m deep when you can barely swim or dive at all? Rather pointless from practical POV but at least it is some indication that the designers have breached the threshold of usability (50m or 100m). In damping factor speak, the rule of x10 applies (speaker impedance should be 10 time bigger than amp Zout) and DF above 40 is good, 80 or 100 is beyond needed. 4000? Great for the brochure.

I have a 1000 DF Japanese amp and I can't hear any audible advantages over my ~100 DF amps regarding control or being overdamped or sounding thin and dry. But I guess if silver plated copper sounds brighter than plain copper to you, 4000 DF would probably make your blonde hair rise up like a mohawk.

(a rant without car analogies, appreciate it)

+1 though it helps with very long cable runs! Useful if you live on a large estate and like listening al fresco in the bottom field. It's alos frequency dependent, since most speakers impedance changes with frequency, so higher figure means less tonal changes with different speaker impedance profiles. Make mine a caramel latte Vlad!

 

[Vladimir]

Useful if you live on a large estate and like listening al fresco in the bottom field. It's alos frequency dependent, since most speakers impedance changes with frequency, so higher figure means less tonal changes with different speaker impedance profiles. Make mine a caramel latte Vlad!

Pro power amps have very high DF (in thousands) just so they can breach long distances without much affecting the original FR. These are distances of sometimes 50m-100m. For domestic amps the old pro amp trick to get higher DF is to use smaller filter caps in the PSU but in larger numbers paralleled so they reduce the impedance. The Exposure 1010s2 and Creek Evo 50A employ this trick at the budget level, which is a sign of good design.