Do discrete opamps improve sound? Opamp swapping

[ToppingSMSL]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmD_Uy3p3dA


Interesting video, and a nice dig at Danny from GR Research 😀

 

[davidf]

I see his face, I'm out.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I see his face, I'm out.

Being afraid of the truth is common. You can learn to break free from that. Believe in yourself.

 

[abacus]

I see his face, I'm out.

Do you mean you hate it when people provide verifiable evidence that does not support your opinion.

Bill

 

[Al ears]

To me Op amp swapping seems very similar to tube rolling with a valve amp.
You either hear the benefits or you don't.
However you'll never know until you try.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

To me Op amp swapping seems very similar to tube rolling with a valve amp.
You either hear the benefits or you don't.
However you'll never know until you try.

😂

I think you're missing the point. People thought they heard differences in the GR Research test but someone noticed that the volumes were slightly different - the discrete one was slightly louder.

Tubes are not the same as their distortions are in the audible range - that can be shown with measurements.

 

[Al ears]

😂

I think you're missing the point. People thought they heard differences in the GR Research test but someone noticed that the volumes were slightly different - the discrete one was slightly louder.

Tubes are not the same as their distortions are in the audible range - that can be shown with measurements.

Apologies but I haven't actually watched the video.
So you're saying volume differences will make them sound different?

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Apologies but I haven't actually watched the video.
So you're saying volume differences will make them sound different?

It's a proven fact. That's why volume matching is so important.

 

[Jasonovich]

To me Op amp swapping seems very similar to tube rolling with a valve amp.
You either hear the benefits or you don't.
However you'll never know until you try.

Yes, it is the same with tube rolling.
I think I got lucky, it doesn't always translate to better sound, it may present the music in a different way or give a better balance or make it worse. I like the sound of my replacement tubes better than (but not substantially) the generic ones.

 

[abacus]

Apologies but I haven't actually watched the video.
So you're saying volume differences will make them sound different?

Look up Fletcher Munsen curves to see how the response of the ear varies with volume.

Bill

 

[Al ears]

Look up Fletcher Munsen curves to see how the response of the ear varies with volume.

Bill

To me if a B Flat doesn't sound like a B Flat then it has nothing to the volume it is played at......
sod curves... 🙂

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Yes, it is the same with tube rolling.
I think I got lucky, it doesn't always translate to better sound, it may present the music in a different way or give a better balance or make it worse. I like the sound of my replacement tubes better than (but not substantially) the generic ones.

As I said in my reply it's only superficially similar, since the distortion levels are so different.

 

[RJW232]

If you have proper engineered equipment the chance for a better results are almost zero.

Apologies but I haven't actually watched the video.
So you're saying volume differences will make them sound different?

For sure. I have an very extreme example from personal experience: I attended a concert where the volume was actually too high. Some parts, guitar or keyboard solos sounded out of tune to my ears. When I heard the recordings (made on my phone) of the same concert at home at a much lower volume, everything sounded OK. And I know, this is a very extreme example, but you can imagine if you compare equipment with 1 or 2dB difference in volume the sound will be different. And don't forget that some speakers need a bit more power before the start singing and dancing. It can be just that small difference (when I was studying I worked part-time in the local hifistore and sometimes we used this trick to sell speakers which had a better margin).

 

[davidf]

Being afraid of the truth is common. You can learn to break free from that. Believe in yourself.

You're making assumptions there.

Do you mean you hate it when people provide verifiable evidence that does not support your opinion.

Bill

I don't mind verifiable evidence if the results have been arrived at with 100% accuracy, which isn't always the case. Hearing him say things like, "I don't know why the company is doing this", (followed by some negative talk) and then not doing the research to find out and understand why doesn't really inspire confidence in his conclusions.

This man runs a forum that isn't too dissimilar to far right groups - outsiders and any who dare question their beliefs are set upon by his many minions. It's extremely fanatical. He may not do it, but he allows it to happen, which is just as bad. You have to ask yourself which side has a more negative effect on those just getting into the hobby.

To me, he just sounds like someone who has a beef with the industry and is trying to undermine it. Like a few people round here...

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I'll just flag up here that telling people how their mind works (as an individual) and making/posting assumptions about them is personal. Let's not go there.

 

[abacus]

You're making assumptions there.

I don't mind verifiable evidence if the results have been arrived at with 100% accuracy, which isn't always the case. Hearing him say things like, "I don't know why the company is doing this", (followed by some negative talk) and then not doing the research to find out and understand why doesn't really inspire confidence in his conclusions.

This man runs a forum that isn't too dissimilar to far right groups - outsiders and any who dare question their beliefs are set upon by his many minions. It's extremely fanatical. He may not do it, but he allows it to happen, which is just as bad. You have to ask yourself which side has a more negative effect on those just getting into the hobby.

To me, he just sounds like someone who has a beef with the industry and is trying to undermine it. Like a few people round here...

If you look at many of his videos, they confirm just how good a lot of the recommended items recommended by users and subjective reviews are, (In other words he provides verifiable evidence of those reviews) however if verifiable evidence proves that the subjective reviews are wrong (Or misheard) he points that out with the evidence.
That some of the verifiable evidence he provides doesn't match with your opinion is by the way, on the other hand, if you can provide verifiable evidence that he is wrong, then do so, that way the user can make their own decision.

Bill

 

[ToppingSMSL]

You're making assumptions there.

I don't mind verifiable evidence if the results have been arrived at with 100% accuracy, which isn't always the case. Hearing him say things like, "I don't know why the company is doing this", (followed by some negative talk) and then not doing the research to find out and understand why doesn't really inspire confidence in his conclusions.

This man runs a forum that isn't too dissimilar to far right groups - outsiders and any who dare question their beliefs are set upon by his many minions. It's extremely fanatical. He may not do it, but he allows it to happen, which is just as bad. You have to ask yourself which side has a more negative effect on those just getting into the hobby.

To me, he just sounds like someone who has a beef with the industry and is trying to undermine it. Like a few people round here...

Content deleted by moderation.

 

[manicm]

If you look at many of his videos, they confirm just how good a lot of the recommended items recommended by users and subjective reviews are, (In other words he provides verifiable evidence of those reviews) however if verifiable evidence proves that the subjective reviews are wrong (Or misheard) he points that out with the evidence.
That some of the verifiable evidence he provides doesn't match with your opinion is by the way, on the other hand, if you can provide verifiable evidence that he is wrong, then do so, that way the user can make their own decision.

Bill

He got it wrong a few times though. For example, he doesn't have the equipment to properly analyse DSD playback. That got him into hot water for one of his reviews.

 

[davidf]

If you look at many of his videos, they confirm just how good a lot of the recommended items recommended by users and subjective reviews are, (In other words he provides verifiable evidence of those reviews) however if verifiable evidence proves that the subjective reviews are wrong (Or misheard) he points that out with the evidence.
That some of the verifiable evidence he provides doesn't match with your opinion is by the way, on the other hand, if you can provide verifiable evidence that he is wrong, then do so, that way the user can make their own decision.

Bill

I'm not disputing what he measures, and I'm not disputing what he thinks of those measurements - but he doesn't always measure correctly, and he doesn't always investigate further when he gets a "bad" measurement to find out if it's something he did wrong, or for the reason behind it - it's either good or bad. There may have been an intentional design decision for that measurement. There's no communication with the manufacturer or designer, it's just automatically a 'bad product', which is then ridiculed and badmouthed by the natives, most of whom will never hear that product during their lifetime. He measured some satellite speakers once, and made numerous comments about their lack of bass - duh, a satellite speaker is a an intentionally bass limited speaker designed to be used with subwoofers - not taking into account its intended use is just completely fail in my opinion.

 

[Gray]

....we used this trick to sell speakers which had a better margin).

Just the sort of tactic that gives dealers a bad reputation.

 

[Jasonovich]

There is this presumption by some that scientific measurements should be the only consideration, the pivotal and definitive mechanism that should be the over riding precedent when you purchase your next speaker or next amp or all DACs sound the same, so buy the cheapest.

From personal observation, it appears, these so called scientific measurements operate without proper consultation or there's an absence of participation from the manufacturer.

The methodology is always deemed to be the right approach until someone comes along to debunct it.

There also appears to be a lack of impartiality, almost a cultists following and when this is questioned, there is some oddity in the response.

This is often personal in nature
What are you stupid?
These are the 10 commandments?

This is not in the spirit of Hifi.
Fine, if this is something that pulls your string, don't use this as a leverage to debase other people's opinions.
Every one has a right to express an opinion and we should have the grace to listen with common courtesy. 👍

 

[Friesiansam]

Every one has a right to express an opinion and we should have the grace to listen with common courtesy. 👍

Absolutely!

 

[Dave_]

Straight up audiophoolery should be called out for what it is, and those perpetuating it, relentlessly mocked as far as I'm concerned....

 

[abacus]

Where in any of the posts have opinions been overruled, the only thing pointed out is that an opinion is not a fact, whereas verifiable evidence is.
I notice no one says anything when blind tests prove a difference, thus making the difference verifiable.
As to only relying on measurements, you are really clutching at straws, as no one (Whether user or designer) does that, with the only difference being that some prioritise subjectivity over measurements and Vica versa, however the best products are usually (But not always) made by manufactures who take a balanced approach.

Bill

 

[Jasonovich]

I need that T-Shirt!🤣