Going active ... ?

[steve_1979]

As you'll know, I'm pretty neutral on the whole 'debate', but I do recall getting ripped into for suggesting scanspeak may not necessarily be the greatest driver ever known to man, ever.

I've never heard either the new Sinar Baja or Scanspeak tweeters. I've only heard the old Sinar Baja tweeters that were used in the old ADM9T and Neutron 5 speakers. The old tweeters sound pretty sweet to me though.

(At least I think it was Sinar Baja tweeters that the old ADM9T's used. It's tricky trying to keep track of all the various upgrades AVI have made over the years :help: )

 

[fr0g]

Yup. These don't have the bass extension, but I prefer them overall.

Really?

I would kill (not really) to upgrade my ADMs to Opals.

I am a bass-head though

Did you not read my 'musings' elsewhere? Wouldn't blame you, I don't see an alternate career as a writer!

When I said I prefer them I was actually downplaying it. These are the most enjoyable speakers I've heard. As much as I liked the Opals (and I did, they are awesome speakers that were head and shoulders better than anything I'd had before), I wouldn't go back if you paid me.

Yes, I did. Glad you're enjoying them Craig. I'm in front of my old 9Ts now, and enjoying it. But yes, I'd swap for Opals in a heartbeat (although my (very)long-term wish is Genelec 8260)

I think the problem for me is bass. And right now (after 2), I must listen quietly, and have had to increase the gain on the sub. I'd love some "standmounts" for my PC that didn't need a sub!

 

[fr0g]

Please specify source of info.

From the oracle himself.

Herself if I remember rightly from the film.

As for the "him" you refer to, he is about as qualified to be called an "Oracle" as I am to be called a sycophant.

Purely a tongue in cheek p**s take comment. After all AVI is considered to be a cult by some people on here.

I know Steve...Just a "tongue in cheek" quip back at you

 

[Craig M.]

And right now (after 2), I must listen quietly, and have had to increase the gain on the sub. I'd love some "standmounts" for my PC that didn't need a sub!

Yes, but with a separate sub you have that option. With something like the Opals if you have to turn them down late at night, obviously the bass goes down too.

 

[fr0g]

And right now (after 2), I must listen quietly, and have had to increase the gain on the sub. I'd love some "standmounts" for my PC that didn't need a sub!

Yes, but with a separate sub you have that option. With something like the Opals if you have to turn them down late at night, obviously the bass goes down too.

True... I hadn't thought of that. Although haven't you got bass and treble controls?

 

[steve_1979]

Yup. These don't have the bass extension, but I prefer them overall.

Really?

I would kill (not really) to upgrade my ADMs to Opals.

I am a bass-head though

Being a basshead myself I wouldn't want the ADM9's (or any other bookshelf speaker) without a subwoofer. I thought the Opals sounded just as good as the old ADM9T's but the Opal's can do really deep bass too.

 

[Craig M.]

And right now (after 2), I must listen quietly, and have had to increase the gain on the sub. I'd love some "standmounts" for my PC that didn't need a sub!

Yes, but with a separate sub you have that option. With something like the Opals if you have to turn them down late at night, obviously the bass goes down too.

True... I hadn't thought of that. Although haven't you got bass and treble controls?

To an extent, but I wouldn't recommend the 'free space' bass setting unless they really are in free space. Lots of it!

 

[fr0g]

Yup. These don't have the bass extension, but I prefer them overall.

Really?

I would kill (not really) to upgrade my ADMs to Opals.

I am a bass-head though

Being a basshead myself I wouldn't want the ADM9's (or any other bookshelf speaker) without a subwoofer. I thought the Opals sounded just as good as the old ADM9T's but the Opal's can do really deep bass too.

And the Genelecs

But this is why I am now concentrating on my other system. My PC is catered for. And upgrading is almost pointless for the time being.

But some nice passives that can get down to around 30-32 Hz.... That's what I want now

 

[the record spot]

Must admit, if I'd lagged the extra cash on the Scan speak tweeter, with the push that went with, only to find that twelve months later, or less, suddenly Sinar Baja's tweeter is better I'd be more than miffed.

For the product that it is, it goes through an enormous amount of churn. This is not good for the customer. And for a product that is supposed to cure upgradeitis, it seems to be falling short of the mark there too.

 

[Craig M.]

Must admit, if I'd lagged the extra cash on the Scan speak tweeter, with the push that went with, only to find that twelve months later, or less, suddenly Sinar Baja's tweeter is better I'd be more than miffed.

Why? If a new driver came out that Tannoy thought improved your speakers, would it lessen your enjoyment of what you have? Would you prefer Tannoy sat on their hands and didn't advance the product?

 

[steve_1979]

Must admit, if I'd lagged the extra cash on the Scan speak tweeter, with the push that went with, only to find that twelve months later, or less, suddenly Sinar Baja's tweeter is better I'd be more than miffed...

That's just the march of technology. New and improved components are being released all the time. It's not just speakers it's the same with computer components, phones, cars, everything really. If a new component becomes available which can improve the performance for the same or a lower price it would be silly not to use it surely?

Generally speaking one of the advantages that small companies have over large companies is their ability to implement regular changes more easily and cheaply than big companies. Big companies that produce products in large numbers tend to have more resources and money available for R&D but if they want to make a small change to an existing product it's likely to mean making expensive changes and/or retooling for a production line.

...For the product that it is, it goes through an enormous amount of churn. This is not good for the customer. And for a product that is supposed to cure upgradeitis, it seems to be falling short of the mark there too.

I completely agree with you there RS. I've never really bought into the idea that the ADM9's (or any other speakers) will cure upgradis for everyone. If something new and better comes out, be it speakers, computers, phones or whatever it's natural for us want it. That's just human nature.

For example I'm very happy with my Neutron 5 system. It sounds fabulous and does everything I want in a package that ticks all the boxes for me. If it's the only hifi system I ever own for the rest of my life I will still be just as happy with it but that doesn't stop me from having to resist the temptation of getting the credit card out every time AVI upgrade their speakers for something new and better than before.

 

[fr0g]

...but that doesn't stop me from having to resist the temptation of getting the credit card out every time AVI upgrade their speakers for something new and better than before.

Just Avi?

I get excited by many different (and equally excellent) speaker brands when they launch new gear. Having heard quite a few pro-style monitors now, I realise that there is certainly more than one path to active speaker nirvana, and often with similar or better value.

It does need an injection of more "Hi-fi" looking speakers in the area, but if I was in the market again for 5-6" monitors, I'd have a fairly large choice

 

[steve_1979]

Just Avi?

Of course not. There's a lot of other very nice kit out there beyond the world of AVI. The Quested S7R and matching sub are high on my 'want list' too.

I get excited by many different (and equally excellent) speaker brands when they launch new gear. Having heard quite a few pro-style monitors now, I realise that there is certainly more than one path to active speaker nirvana, and often with similar or better value.

It does need an injection of more "Hi-fi" looking speakers in the area, but if I was in the market again for 5-6" monitors, I'd have a fairly large choice

If I were tempted to get the credit card out it would probably be on some ADM9's with a sub. Partly because I like the sound and value for money and partly because they match my current Neutron system which could be used as rear speakers in a surround sound system with the ADM9's.

 

[the record spot]

Must admit, if I'd lagged the extra cash on the Scan speak tweeter, with the push that went with, only to find that twelve months later, or less, suddenly Sinar Baja's tweeter is better I'd be more than miffed.

Why? If a new driver came out that Tannoy thought improved your speakers, would it lessen your enjoyment of what you have? Would you prefer Tannoy sat on their hands and didn't advance the product?

Apart from my speakers being dual concentric, which may be tricky, but I take your point. What Tannoy don't do however, is hype up the product, say it's the best there is, pitch it at a premium and that you can't buy better. Then nine months later, apparently you can.

That's not product development, it's not effective marketing, and while the AVI fanboys might see nothing wrong in it (Ashley's style of product promotion) I think the more objective buyer might.

Another case in point would be Class D, which is now absolutely fine as it seems is a meagre 50w where once at least 100 was the declared minimum.

 

[the record spot]

Must admit, if I'd lagged the extra cash on the Scan speak tweeter, with the push that went with, only to find that twelve months later, or less, suddenly Sinar Baja's tweeter is better I'd be more than miffed...

That's just the march of technology. New and improved components are being released all the time. It's not just speakers it's the same with computer components, phones, cars, everything really. If a new component becomes available which can improve the performance for the same or a lower price it would be silly not to use it surely?

Generally speaking one of the advantages that small companies have over large companies is their ability to implement regular changes more easily and cheaply than big companies. Big companies that produce products in large numbers tend to have more resources and money available for R&D but if they want to make a small change to an existing product it's likely to mean making expensive changes and/or retooling for a production line.

...For the product that it is, it goes through an enormous amount of churn. This is not good for the customer. And for a product that is supposed to cure upgradeitis, it seems to be falling short of the mark there too.

I completely agree with you there RS. I've never really bought into the idea that the ADM9's (or any other speakers) will cure upgradis for everyone. If something new and better comes out, be it speakers, computers, phones or whatever it's natural for us want it. That's just human nature.

For example I'm very happy with my Neutron 5 system. It sounds fabulous and does everything I want in a package that ticks all the boxes for me. If it's the only hifi system I ever own for the rest of my life I will still be just as happy with it but that doesn't stop me from having to resist the temptation of getting the credit card out every time AVI upgrade their speakers for something new and better than before.

See my response to Craig Steve, it covers it off all enough. I should point out I understand the complexities involved in product development, planning and spares forecasting. I worked on a project some years ago converting Rolls-Royce stock control system to just-in-time. This was for the civil aero-engine business in Derby. Now that is a company that can rightly call itself world class.

You'd have to look long and hard to find a comment from Sir Ralph Robins, Sir John Rose or John Cheffins, and their ilk, running their competition down too.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

No offence Steve, but most of what you've quoted here is either straight marketing or highly questionable

Sinar Baja are absolutely huge and make 8 million individual drivers per year and 1.5 million complete hi fi speaker systems for numerous hi fi manufacturers. They also designed and make the special speaker systems for Bentley, some of which are sold as Naim and they supply most of the up market VWs, Audis etc.

B&W and Naim would be surprised to learn this, as, no doubt, would Bentley. Naim designed and supply the speakers according to what I found out on the web, while B&W supply other prestigious marques. If AVI are really going to say this, they have to prove it, which I doubt they can. This is, however, in keeping with their misleading statements - most people working in the Focal in France would be astonished to hear most of their speakers are made in China, which the great one claimed and is clearly untrue.

Sub woofers are not difficult to design, they just need to pump lots of air, but the higher frequency ones are a balancing act and where all the money is spent. New ideas mean new chassis and only companies like Sinar can afford to keep tooling up for new ones, hence they are world leaders and are making progress towards better SQ.

Apart from hyperbole there is also a non-sequitur here. Who says they are world leaders? They churn out cheap and medium price speakers, but does this make them world leaders? If you check their website, you'll see a lot of their expertise comes in from Danish consultants

Typically the tools to make a 6" die cast chassis are about £100,000 so it would besilly for a small company to make their own.

That, probably, is the sentence that is closest to the truth.

 

[johngw]

Sub woofers are not difficult to design, they just need to pump lots of air, but the higher frequency ones are a balancing act and where all the money is spent. New ideas mean new chassis and only companies like Sinar can afford to keep tooling up for new ones, hence they are world leaders and are making progress towards better SQ.

Apart from hyperbole there is also a non-sequitur here. Who says they are world leaders? They churn out cheap and medium price speakers, but does this make them world leaders? If you check their website, you'll see a lot of their expertise comes in from Danish consultants

They are the current supplier, therefore "world leaders". No surprises there, this is familiar rhetoric.

Re the change in stance on class D, and 50W, no surprises there either. "Underpowered" active speakers and amps from competitors generated plenty of sniggering on the AVI forum for a while. For some reason everything else, including the likes of Adam and Genelec, always came in at about half or a third of AVI spec. Clear nobody else knew what they are doing. Until the cover was blown when someone picked the ADMs apart and measured the amps to 80W or less, i.e. in line with most of the rest. AVI obviously denied it, but power specs and "underpowered" competitors no longer seems to feature in the company message - funny that.

 

[fr0g]

If I were tempted to get the credit card out it would probably be on some ADM9's with a sub. Partly because I like the sound and value for money and partly because they match my current Neutron system which could be used as rear speakers in a surround sound system with the ADM9's.

[/quote]

It would be a nice surround system. Would need an extra slave ADM9 for me though.

 

[steve_1979]

It would be a nice surround system. Would need an extra slave ADM9 for me though.

In the living room with a TV I'd want a centre channel too but at a desk with a computer I've found 4.1 works better than 5.1.

 

[fr0g]

It would be a nice surround system. Would need an extra slave ADM9 for me though.

In the living room with a TV I'd want a centre channel too but at a desk with a computer I've found 4.1 works better than 5.1.

Heh. That could be true. Blimey that would be rather luxurious for a PC though! P

 

[fr0g]

Clear nobody else knew what they are doing. Until the cover was blown when someone picked the ADMs apart and measured the amps to 80W or less, i.e. in line with most of the rest.

Not really a fair comment. I imagine the power specs are given for the particular driver they use, which seems reasonable to me. What's the point giving specs into 2, 4, 8, 16 ohms when the amp will never be used with any other driver?

And if you turn the volume up, you can tell that there is PLENTY of power and then some.

Don't get me wrong, I dislike the putting down and the OTT claims myself, but in this case I think the figures quoted seem fair.

 

[steve_1979]

It would be a nice surround system. Would need an extra slave ADM9 for me though.

In the living room with a TV I'd want a centre channel too but at a desk with a computer I've found 4.1 works better than 5.1.

Heh. That could be true. Blimey that would be rather luxurious for a PC though! P

Way OTT I know but most of my music listening at home in done in the computer room anyway so it makes sense to use the best speakers there. Besides the other half doesn't want speakers cluttering up the living room which is actually a bonus because it means I can use them for playing computer games as wall as listening to music.

 

[fr0g]

It would be a nice surround system. Would need an extra slave ADM9 for me though.

In the living room with a TV I'd want a centre channel too but at a desk with a computer I've found 4.1 works better than 5.1.

Heh. That could be true. Blimey that would be rather luxurious for a PC though! P

Way OTT I know but most of my music listening at home in done in the computer room anyway so it makes sense to use the best speakers there.

Was my original reason for buying the ADMs. Although I seem to be listening mostly in my "living room listening area", so I am looking to upgrade my passives.

 

[Ajani]

Clear nobody else knew what they are doing. Until the cover was blown when someone picked the ADMs apart and measured the amps to 80W or less, i.e. in line with most of the rest.

Not really a fair comment. I imagine the power specs are given for the particular driver they use, which seems reasonable to me. What's the point giving specs into 2, 4, 8, 16 ohms when the amp will never be used with any other driver?

And if you turn the volume up, you can tell that there is PLENTY of power and then some.

Don't get me wrong, I dislike the putting down and the OTT claims myself, but in this case I think the figures quoted seem fair.

Yes and No.

I agree that it makes sense to measure the power output of the amp based on ohm of the driver.

HOWEVER, before you go dissing the competition for being 'underpowered', you need to ensure that they are measuring in the same way. Else you might be making completely misleading claims...

NOTE: When you have a quality product there is never a need to diss the competition... Shame the AVI execs don't realize this.

 

[fr0g]

Clear nobody else knew what they are doing. Until the cover was blown when someone picked the ADMs apart and measured the amps to 80W or less, i.e. in line with most of the rest.

Not really a fair comment. I imagine the power specs are given for the particular driver they use, which seems reasonable to me. What's the point giving specs into 2, 4, 8, 16 ohms when the amp will never be used with any other driver?

And if you turn the volume up, you can tell that there is PLENTY of power and then some.

Don't get me wrong, I dislike the putting down and the OTT claims myself, but in this case I think the figures quoted seem fair.

Yes and No.

I agree that it makes sense to measure the power output of the amp based on ohm of the driver.

HOWEVER, before you go dissing the competition for being 'underpowered', you need to ensure that they are measuring in the same way. Else you might be making completely misleading claims...

NOTE: When you have a quality product there is never a need to diss the competition... Shame the AVI execs don't realize this.

100% agree.

And I comment when I feel people are being unfair...which in this case, it was.