Front firing rear speakers (Q Acoustics 1010i) rear placement

[admin_exported]

Hi all,

I would like some info on front firing rear speakers, I know that the 5.1 sound from the rears is supposed to be difusse and all, however there are plenty of films that utilize stereo surround sound imaging. The start of Transformers for example, the sound pans right to left and all around on the film logo.

I know that with front firing speakers the rears are supposed to be 100 degrees unlike side mounted dipole speakers.

I have the rear speakers mounted on the side walls just behind me so in keeping with the 110 degrees, however I can't decide whether to angle the speakers up or down, and how much left and right.

Looking at the dolby guidelines I should have the speakers firing into the money seat, so basically firing directly into my ears, however because the speakers are a few feet above ear level I avoid getting the overwhelmed by the rears.

Or should they both fire directly at each other slightly behind me?

I am not sure whether I should angle them down a little so that they are not firing down into my ears but are firing just over at each side. I do play alot of FPS games on consoles so directional information is important. However with testing I can still hear the stereo placement effects in my rear speakers when they are firing straight. However probably not as much.

I have never had a problem in an Cinema detecting where sound is coming from and they always seem to have there speakers firing straight across the seats, however i'm not sure if they are always dipole speakers.

Any information would be ideal on this ;-)

 

[Oldboy]

Hi stu_d,

I have the Q Acoustics 1010i in 7.1 configuration and went through this process myself! The best advice is from Dolby in my experience and i have my rears set at a height of 1.45metres from the floor, pointing slightly down and angled towards my listening position on brackets that are wall mounted. With the 7.1 set up i have the rears more forward along the wall than you would in 5.1 but i would just move my speakers into the corner if i had a 5.1 and keep the speakers firing down towards the listening position and angled in.

As a rule i found that the rears needed a bit of extra height over your listening position to get the best surround. Also i would say that the best way to position them is to have them firing at your ears from your seating position, i mounted my speakers to the wall then just kept adjusting untill they were firing directly at my ears. I've found that the best way to get a great surround and i too play LOTS of fps games and can confirm that footsteps and gunfire etc is placed absolutely spot on so if go down this route you won't be able to blame your speakers for a poor round anymore lol.

I did look at all sorts of setups for rear speaker placement and the net is awash with differing opinions but i found the Dolby labs the best to go by, as for angles i beleive the advice is between 100 - 120 degrees but i would take into account the shape of your room as all advice is for a square room and get it as near as possible but don't be overly concerned as i found having the speakers slighly higher and directed at your ears much more important.

Hope that is of some help

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the detailed reply Oldboy appreciated ;-)

Thats kind of the way I was going,

However do you find that your rears overpower your fronts?

I have an SPL meter which I use to setup my levels, however I was a little concerned with angling them down into my ears. However in saying that the fronts and centre point directly at the cash seat where I sit. Dolby say you don't want to know exactly where the sound is coming from, however many films use rear stereo effects including games so who knows what to do.

Do your rear speakers fire over your head then? As a pose to directly into your ear?

What I mean by that is the angle they point downwards rather than facing towards your ear, left and right wise.

I have my rears wall mounted in the 110 degrees angle, they currently fire towards my ears, however maybe a little past. The problem is that when I game I sit in front of the rear speakers but I sit in the prime position when watching movies. Whilst gaming I tend to sit on the edge of my seat. I can still hear the effects fine however you can't really have the best of both worlds without some form of compromise.

Thanks again

Stu

 

[Oldboy]

Hi stu,

No i don't find my rears overpower my fronts atall BUT they did initially! I had to mess around with my amp settings (speaker levels) to get it just right as the auto setup left the rears to loud and my centre/fronts not loud enough and that had a major effect on the accuraccy of the surround. Also i found that when i went to 7.1 i found my new rears over powering until they had been run in for a few weeks, they sounded harsh compared to the speakers in my 5.1 but that went away over time and now they are absolutely spot on. I know that may well have no bearing on your situation but thought i would share the info anyway.

Do my rear speakers fire over my head? Well sort of is the not very helpful answer so i will elaborate further, as said in my last post they fire at my ears BUT i don't angle the speakers square on to my ears in my listening position if that is what you were asking? I have them set up so that the base of the speaker is firing directly at my ears, leaving some room for the rest of the speaker to be firing overhead for those gunfire effects etc and i've found this works a treat. I don't know how else to describe the positioning so if i come across a bit vague it's just that i'm struggling to explain it properly so i can supply a photo in the next post if that's of any use to you?

Now as for positioning that can be easily solved if your amp has a setting for different positions, does yours? If so you can just programme in another seating position say for your gaming where you are on the edge of your seat and then just flick between the two depending on what you are doing. If your amp doesn't have this feature then you are left with two options, you can re-calibrate your seating position to half way point between the two seating positions as a compromise OR simply change the speaker levels each time you watch a movie/play a game, if thats what you do then a one point increase to the rears and a one point decrease to the fronts is what i would recommend as i doubt you stray too far from the sweet spot? Either way is not ideal i know but i know of no other way round the problem, i am fortunate in that my seating position is consistent no matter what i do but my amp does have the feature for different positions so i may experiment a little today and see what results i get.

Again i hope this helps but don't hesitate if you want more help/info as i'm happy to oblige

EDIT: I forgot to add that i have tried having the rears facing straight out into the room with no angling atall but found the surround field less than convincing in this setup but it may have a place in awkwardly shaped room, the surround is so much more convincing with my speakers as they are now and many people that come round still get caught out and look for the sounds when the speakers are in full flow!

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks again for the reply

,

I have angled my speakers down towards my listening postion, they do fire over me still, the right one is angled slightly further up due to sitting a little closer to it. However they are both the same angle from the listening postion. They now fire into my ears when sat back on the sofa, they do still shoot over my head however.

If I was to use Audessy I could setup the two locations, however I don't like to use that so there is nothing in my amp which is a Onkyo 507, only one setup available.

I could put the rears angled between the two positions, however when I am gaming I can still hear the surrounds effects fine and know exactly what is going on. It would be ideal to have them right for both but I do sit back on my sofa also. Also having them fire into the centre would mean they are firing in front on me when I sit back.

I don't think that by turning the rears up when gaming would be worth my while, due to as I say the levels still sounding good, however I will give it a go, I would imagine there is some leeway when it comes to the sweet spot. When I sit on the edge of the chair the rears don't fire directly into my ears they fire somewhat behind me.

I have re-done my speaker distances and made sure there are no random settings on the amp that I don't want. The levels have also been setup again using an SPL meter.

If you could show me a picture of how yours is setup that would be good to lookat, you will have to excuse the wires on mine for the moment, i'm not putting them into the walls until I am sure they are staying there.

I dont really know how to set them up to allow for two things really, however I would imagine most people don't sit in the exact same position when gaming or watching movies, how exactly do you achieve that?

Thanks again

Stu





Update

I have been trying the Battlefield demo tonight and I can tell the difference between sitting on the edge and leaning back, think I'm gonna have to either turn the rears up or move the speaker more into the middle of the room

 

[Oldboy]

Hi stu,

I took photos last night of my setup but i can't get them onto the forum no matter what i try! How did you get your pics up on the site? Looking at your pics my speakers are mounted lower than yours (obviously you have doors in the way which dosen't help), mine are mounted at about 70-80cm above my listening position. In relation to your setup my speakers are placed half way between the sofa and the celing approx, looking at your room that option may well not be possible for you unfortunately unless as you said you move the speakers further into the room.

One other thing i forgot to mention, if you look at any diagram of the ideal surround setup you will find that it's recommended that you have your seating position (sofa) moved further into the room to provide a better angle for your surrounds and leaving a space between you, the back wall and the speakers. This i have also done and can confirm that the nightmare i faced in getting the room switched round was worth it as those rears really do benefit from the extra space to breathe and the sound fills that gap behind the sofa creating a much more convincing surround field. I think this helps with the difference between movies and games too as i find the surround great in both situations so perhaps it's worth a try if your room will take it?

I did try the option on my amp for different seating positions but i couldn't hear any difference in sound between my normal position and the new one i setup for games so i really wouldn't fret that your amp doesn't have this option. If you can i would recommend moving your speakers both further down the wall and a little further into the room if you can't/don't want to change your room around (i know how much hassle that is!) as i'm sure this will provide better results.

As soon as i figure out how to post a photo i will put it up so you can compare positioning, and don't worry about wires/decor after all the home cinema is much more important than the colour of the walls lol. My place has a nice home cinema but i've yet to decorate so it dosen't look that great at the mo also but it's on my list....not looking forward to chasing out the walls to hide the wires atall!

 

[Anonymous]

I uploaded my pics to Imageshack and then just posted the code that was intended for forums, then when I pressed preview I could see them.

I followed the 2-3 feet above the listening position for my surrounds;

Place the SL & SR speakers between 90ø to 110ø to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener.

This was taken from the THX website, I beleive Dolby used to say the same, however on the new layout it says above listening postion.

It may be room acoustics but I have moved my speakers so that they fire across my seating position, I did try the speakers firing right down so they were just above my position, however something wasn't quite right. I have them firing into the middle of my seating position straight across now and i'm really happy with the results.

I dont want my rears too close to my listening position, that is what I had before they were mounted and they overpowered the fronts and I really wasn't happy with them. I think they are about 1.6 metres now from the central chair.

From my seating position to the fronts I have a distance of about 3 metres so I can't move the sofa much further out, looking at the diagram on the Dolby website I don't feel I'm too far away, they are out to the side and a little back so they are behind you. The stand on that speaker is nearly in line with the sofa on the diagram, however I will move the sofa out a couple of inches and give it a go. The missus wont allow any more

I'll try and take a picture from the sofa so you can see the angle as the first pic doesnt show it up to well.

The Dolby picture diagram is a little weird, they fire into the front of the sofa, that gives the impression of a different angle, if they were firing into where the person was actually going to be sitting the angle line would look much different.

I think i'm going to go straight to the door frames and down with the speaker wire, that way they will be easier to hide, I had a nightmare with my rear left as it is near an plug socket, had to check for electricity, thought I was going to drill straight into it

I find the start in transformers Revenge of the Fallen a good benchmark as there is some really good rear stereo effects that really sound nice.

Think I will have to wait until I have a bigger house for 7.1, lucky git

Hopefully you can get your pics up for a nosey

Thanks again for the info much appreciated, good to have someone to bounce ideas off

 

[Oldboy]

Hi stu,

That all sounds good to me! My speakers are 2 and a half feet above my listening position as you will be able to see for yourself at the end of this post as thanks to you i can now upload photos after a bit of re-sizing to be WHF friendly

i think moving your speakers further into the room was the way to go and i'm chuffed you are happy with the results (i know just how fiddly getting the right sound can be that's for sure!). Just out of interest what brackets are you using for wall mounting? I've gone the Q Acoustics route on all but my front 2 stands (Soundstyle Z2i's) and have a slight complaint with them in that when you angle them they tend to tilt downwards slightly due to the construction of the bracket, no big deal really appart from the aesthetics but weird none the less.

Your distances seem rather similar to mine (i'm about the same distance away from my rears) so i would say you have nailed the configuration and perhaps a bit of gentle peruasion with the other half will mean you can try out the sofa further forward, but i wouldn't worry too much as you seem happy with it as it is

your distance from the fronts seems about right too, i'm 2.8metres away from the fronts as with a 40inch tv that puts me right in the middle of the ideal viewing distances for both SD and HD content and also the angles are right in this config.

As for the Dolby pics for the fronts i found having the fronts about 2 - 2.5 metres apart and firing forward the best solution, i understand what you are saying and yes it would seem logical to toe the front 2 speakers in towards the listening position but i'm of the opinion that the surround field is compromised when the fronts are angled in. The pan of effects from left to right and vice versa just sound wrong and very narrow, you loose that lovely panning of effects from one side of the room to the other and all advice seems to point in this direction except when using dedicated stereo speakers in a hi-fi setup.

Good solution with your wires

and i'm a bit jealous as i can't get away with that so i'm looking at alternatives to channeling walls maybe some sort of conduit/covering i can paint over when i decorate plus i remove the possibility of running into electric mains like yourself!

It's a pleasure bouncing ideas off of you and you've got me tweaking now!

PS. Excuse the state of the decor!

 

[Anonymous]

I have the official Qacoustics rear brackets, I don't have a problem with the fronts as I have a pair of 1050i Floorstanders.

I will put another picture up later when I get a chance, I have a black stand where my Center sits at just about ear height, I have a 50" Panasonic V10 Plasma which is wallmounted so the center sits on top of that.

I have filled my 1050i's with sand also for better sound quality.

I've been playing MAG today on the PS3 and the sound is excellent, the game is THX certified however so thats usually a good start

I find the positioning of the rear speakers on the dolby diagram strange as the angle shows the sound again going into the centre of the couch instead of where you would sit, thus making the angle go in from the side rather than to the side and slightly to the rear.

It points out that the sound should be calibrated for you ears and not the couch but thats what it looks like .

I currently have my fronts toed in but need to see which I prefer, undecided yet.

Thanks for the pics, how do your speakers cover you all the time then, do you usually sit in the same position on the sofa?

 

[Oldboy]

Hi stu,

Ah you have 1050 fronts! I have been looking at a set of black 1030i floorstanders to replace my fronts but i think it may well be overkill in my room so i'm still undecided, besides a Sony BDPS760 bluray player is next on my list so i may well get the 1030i's after that if i can.

I have my Sony 40W5500 wall mounted with the centre speaker wall mounted below the TV with all my AV equipment on an Alphasson stand below the centre speaker, my centre is at exactly the same height as my fronts on their stands.

As for the for the Dolby diagram i have set my room up with the sweet spot for the listening position as it is described in the Dolby diagram. The reason being that unless i have company i have got used to sitting centrally (for the best surround) and to set it up any other way is still going to involve a compromise of some sort and overall i sit centrally most of the time, even when i relax and put my feet up when watching a movie i don't feel i'm missing anything by not sitting completely central. No matter what you do there will always be a sweet spot for the surround and if that spot is not central then you loose out more when moving from one end of the sofa to the other, but in your situation can't you just set it up so that the sweet spot is your usual seating position? Your amp can make the adjustments needed for this but i still feel that a central position is better for a more even surround but then in saying that it does depend on your room, perhaps more experimenting with positions? The Dolby diagram only shows a central position and to calibrate to your ears as that is the sweet spot in those setups, the angles of the speakers all align to that point in the centre of the couch but there is nothing stopping you adapting that. Dolby have diagrams for all different shaped rooms which are setup differently and i only went by the original as my room is square shaped, and then aimed the speakers at my ears (rears).

Oh yeh MAG came out yesterday didn't it...i was part of the Beta for the game last year and really enjoyed it so perhaps i will purchase once i prestige in MW2, surprising that it has a THX certificate though. Do you go on PSN with your PS3? If so add me to your friends list if you would like to, my PSN i.d. is Justabod.

I will add some pics of my front setup over the weekend for you to have a look at and hope you get the chance to add a picture too

 

[Anonymous]

I have been re-arranging my speakers again to try and get them where I would like them to be, I have moved my sofa so that my rears are equal distance between me. The middle seat on my sofa now is directly pointing towards the middle of the Plasma screen.

The only downside to my setup is that my Front right speaker is near the chimney wall, however it is either that or move the whole lot left but that would mean the sofa as well, so I would be much closer to the rear left speaker.

Is it more important to move the fronts so that the right is not close to the chimney wall, or leave it as is to have the correct seating for the rears speakers.

Here is a picture of the fronts how they are currently arranged, however the TV does move on the wallmount and can therefore be moved left.



Also, looking at the Dolby diagram it would seem that the Centre speaker is directly under the screen and the front left and right and further inwards to create the arc that most places seem to talk about with regards to front speakers.

I was under the impression that they should all be the same distance, or in a line. However this seems to not be the case.

 

[Oldboy]

Hello stu,

I would leave it the way you have it personally.....the only thing is wether or not the bass on your front right is now overpowering as it's now nearer a wall? If it isn't then yes definately leave them where they are as it seems like a slight compromise in the current setup but as you said if you move it again then you will be closer to the left rear speaker which for me is alot worse than you currently have it. At the end of the day you are governed by the shape of your room and by your partner (you've done well to get that ammount of kit with the blessing of your other half LOL), and it seems this is your best solution with the shape of your room.

I think the rears are more important for you as the soundstage at the front seems even and your speakers positioned correctly but you are the best judge when it comes to sound, my only question would be are you more happy with it this way round and have you reaped any sonic rewards for your trouble?

As for the front positions you can see from my setup that i have the centre under the screen (wallmounted) and at the same height as my fronts. I have found that i get much better bass performance this way and that arc across the fronts as you put it. My front two speakers are slightly further into the room but we are talking centimetres here....the Dolby diagram does show the speakers further into the room but i've found that to be wrong, you then have to set a different delay to the centre speaker to compensate which is just wrong IMO. Plus as my speakers are bookshelves they benefit from being as near to a wall as poss to get that bass, i did move them into the room but they sounded flat and lost most of their bass therefore ruining music completely! With floorstanders i wouldn't expect the same problem so i think you have done the right thing. Take a look at my fronts and let me know your thoughts

 

[Anonymous]

Hi again, by the way I added you on PSN ;-)

I've got MAG and Uncharted 2 for the PS3 thats about it though, most of my gaming is done on the 360.

I haven't noticed any added bass from the front right speaker, however I do usually have to set it to -1 on the levels which I would assume is down to reflected sound. Other than that there are great.

I used to have my fronts closer together, basically next to the TV, however the soundfield that created was slightly hard to pinpoint audio. I like it a little more obvious.

It was only today that I noticed on both the THX and Dolby website that the centre was directly under the TV and you want the front left and right further in. Then I started to see the arc diagram on the internet and that made more sense so I thought I would give it a go. Looking at the Dolby diagram it looks as though the back of the floorstanders as they have them, are supposed to be in-line with the screen, however mine cannot do that at distance left and right of the screen due to the chimney wall so they are a little in front of the screen. I dont know if that will cause a problem or not. To get them in-line with the screen I would have to move the whole lot left.

You seem to have the best setting for the Bookshelf speakers, I bought the Floorstanders for music purposes, listen to alot of music as well. My floorstanders sound like they are coming out of the centre of the TV when music is playing so the soundstage seems to be nice at there current angle.

I have all the speakers facing towards me so that I get the sound first before the reflections, off of other surfaces to try and keep them as accurate as possible really.

I can see your speakers are all the same height, for the tweeters. My Centre would have to be in the bottom middle of the screen for that to happen so I cant try that. I thought about moving it up a touch but it all sounds fine with dialog and I always have it set to around -3 or -4 so if anything it too loud already.

As for the delays on the fronts I have left them at 3.00 metres as the next up is 3.30 on my Onkyo amp so there is not enough of a distance for me to change that.

I have my Subwoofer off to the left, you cannot see it in the picture, I have my fronts set to small in the receiver as I thought the Sub could do all the heavy lifting, however in the manual it says to set to large, but I'd rather not rattle the walls down with all three acting as Subwoofers.

One of the big reasons I bought the Panasonic V10 Plasma was that it had a THX setting so other than setting the brightness I knew everything was as good as it could be, wish I could press a button for perfect surround sound, lol.

Do you know exactly what the point of the arc is in the front three? I would imagine it is something to make the distances closer to the listener, due to the non central position of the front left and right speaker as oppose to the centre?

Also I wondered how you calibrate your Subwoofer for the level, I have an SPL meter I use for the other levels, however just wondered how you go about setting that up too?

 

[Oldboy]

Nice one for adding me on PSN

feel free to add me on XBL aswell, my gamertag is exactly the same as my PSN account. I've got Uncharted 2 on the PS3 but not got MAG yet as still playing MW2 however it is on my list!

Seems as though you have got the best solution for your room then and i can't see any way in which you could make it better. I don't think you would ever get your centre mounted at the correct level as that would then mean the TV being way too far up the wall for comfortable viewing due to you having those lovely floorstanders (slightly jealous as i love my music) but i don't think it's a big loss and you seem happy with it which is the main concern here. Yes both THX and Dolby say it should be mounted below the TV and i went by this when installing my speakers and i have to say the difference in bass and dialogue detail was remarkable when compared to having it mounted on my AV rack, total night and day. Don't let that sway you though because as i said before you have to compromise somewhere unless you are fortunate like me and have a square room with no intrusions (chimney etc).

I have all my speakers firing out into the room except my left and right rears, even the 2 extra speakers in 7.1 config fire straight out into the room BUT my speakers are set to large and it does make a difference. By setting the speakers to small you are taking away some of the sound and making the sub work too much (you shouldn't be able to place where the bass is coming from), the sound is alot fuller when set to large and don't worry you shouldn't get overwhelming bass from your fronts in this setup....but if you do just adjust the bass levels untill you are happy. The small setting is for speakers such as Keff eggs that can't carry bass like a traditional speaker cabinet and fire out mostly mid and treble leaving the sub to do ALL the bass duties, the Q Acoustics should be set to large as they are a traditional speaker design.

I didn't realise your TV has a THX setting i presume this is the same as the theatre setting on my Sony ie it optimises the picture for viewing movies at the touch of a button? And i'm totally with you when it comes to a button for optimum sound.....if only LOL. As for the arc on the front three that's just the pan of effects from left to right or vice versa, you should have a seemless transition from all your fronts in the perfect 'arc' and you should hear no dead spots in the room plus effects should pan as though they are travelling from left to right (or vice versa) physically in your room and i think you have that already? The 'arc' just refers to the perfect layout of the speakers ie when the centre is slightly behind the fronts and you are looking from above the shape the front three speakers make should be an 'arc'.

As for my sub levels i followed the WHF advice and once i had my speakers in position i plugged in the sub and put on a favourite piece of music and moved around my room untill i could hear where the sweet spots were in my room (where the bass sounded much fuller). When doing this you can hear how different the bass is in differing positions and in places it falls flat so the theory that sub placement is irrelevant due to the sub only firing out an LFE channel is rubbish, sub placement does matter! I was really fortunate again in that my sub was best placed just to the right of my rack, i do wonder how an SPL meter reads the sub and how you went about positioing yours though? Have thought of buying an SPL meter but not sure how much value i would get out of one now??

Blimey that went on a bit longer than i thought, sorry this post is a bit long LOL

 

[Anonymous]

Hi mate and thanks for getting back to me,

I will add you onto my live friends list as well the next time I go on

I have tried the speakers on large and it creates a little too much bass for my liking, everything that I have seen online from Dolby states to put even the biggest floorstanders to small, here is a quote from Dolby;

Distribute Your Frequencies Properly

If you have a subwoofer, don't ask your other speakers to try to reproduce low-frequency bass. Receivers with

Dolby Digital technology can be set for "large" or "small" speakers. Set it for "small," and the subwoofer to "on."

Now the bass frequencies will be sent only to the subwoofer, and your sound dynamics will open up as your

other speakers are freed from reproducing low bass.

However it states in the Q acoustics manual to set the 1050i to Large, I have my crossover set to 80hz for all speakers. Bass is the one thing my GF doesn't like though so I always have it set really low.

Looking on the Dolby diagram it looks exactly like mine with the centre speaker below the floorstanders, however you can get the qacoustics centre bracket for less than a tenner now so i'm not sure whether to get one and move my centre so it is sat just under the TV. Do you think it would be worth it?

As for my TV it is THX certifies and has a THX setting for the picture, so when you select that your picture is perfectly calibrated for greyscale and colour temp so what you are seeing on the screen is exactly what was intened by the director. The only thing that you have to change is brightness for the black level. They love to ship TV's with bad greyscale meaning you would have to spend money on a colour meter and then go into the service menu to adjust, nightmare time.

Thanks for the info on the Sub I will give that a go even though it doesn't really do a great deal in my current setup. When the other halfs not in I can give it a blast.

 

[Oldboy]

Hi mate,

Ah wondered if we would get to this about the speaker size setting LOL! The Dolby info to me in this instance is confusing as from what i have read they should be set to large, Q Acoustics who after all made the speakers (so should know best no?) say as you pointed out to set them to large. My amp on auto setup recognises them as large speakers and sets them accordingly. I have never gone by Dolby settings for anything other than correct speaker placement and angles etc, i use the maufacturers settings for my audio and electronic equipment and it's served me well. BUT you of course have to allow for your girlfriends dislike of bass so perhaps (if your amp can do this?) you can make 2 settings, say one for everyday use that is GF friendly and another for when your GF is out and you have free reign to crank it up a bit

if that's not possible then perhaps it's best to leave it as it is?

As for the bracket for your centre i would say if you can mount it at the correct level and your TV dosen't go too far up the wall as a consequence then go for it! I noticed an immediate difference in the clarity of dialogue but the real gain is in bass, LOTS more bass infact and that really adds body to the dialogue to make it much more convincing and warm and for a tenner you really would be stupid not to....

It seems your THX setting does the same as my Bravia Theatre setting then but i'm not sure if mine impacts on the greyscale so i will investigate further but right now i have my TV set to D65 imaging standard calibration for movies and have found it brilliant. I have had to reset the colour gain/bias and white balance etc and adjust all picture settings but i've yet to come across any greyscale adjustment so maybe it lies within an engineer's menu if my TV has one??

Hope you get a bit of joy with your subwoofer placement, my new Sony BDPS760 bluray player arrived on saturday morning and i wasn't expecting quite so much of a leap in picture and sound quality over my PS3 but blimey what a difference! In all areas you get a leap in quality, ok not mind blowing like the first time you saw HD but there are major gains and the picture and sound is the best i've ever got out of my system so once again the WHF advice is spot on and i have to say i'm chuffed with it as you may have guessed lol.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I'm not going to move the TV, i'm just going to mount the centre underneath the TV, as you say for better bass and get it closer to ear level. If you look at the Dolby picture the centre is mounted below the floorstanders as I would imagine they take into account how high that would put your TV when using floorstanders as you stated earlier, I dont want a stiff neck

I put my TV mount bracket so that the middle of the TV is with your eye level, I did this when I had a LCD to so I would get the best possible line of sight as LCD screens can lose contrast if you on not center on. However they have imporved over the last few years with this.

If you can pick up a SPL meter, they are worth it, the analog radioshack meter is the one I have. Its amazing how little changes in position can make a massive difference to sound levels and aren't obvious to the ear at all.

I have moved my rears now, they point about 3/4 downwards, I used to have them all the way down, however I find that with that setup you have to be in the exact position for that sweet spot, a little higher like how you have yours and you get a little leeway with your seating position and still get that good positional audio. I have changed my fronts to large and they are nice and the GF seems ok with it for now however she could tell the difference straight away, with two 2x165mm woofers.

Just out of interest, I know you are happy with your 1010i's set to large, however in the manual its states a small setting?

I have changed my front crossover to 50hz and I am also going to try 60hz, thats what it states to use for large speakers? I would imagine that is going to add much more bass though so I will have to be careful on that one.

I have a question on this whilst I remember, my Onkyo amp doesn't have per speaker crossover settings, it has one global one. I'm not 100% sure on the difference between the crossover and the large or small setting. If I only have one setting then shouldn't I set it to be the largest Hz level of all my speakers, say the centre which is 75hz? And not the fronts which are 44hz?

Update

I have been looking around the net for some more info on what to do, It would seem that once set to Large a full range signal goes to the speaker and the crossover is ignored. I have set my Fronts to large and my crossover to 80hz, as the Centre speaker is rated to 75hz. There is also a Double Bass feature on my amp, according to what I have read this should be set to ON, so that the Sub also get the bass information. Then if at some point I use the sub a little more it will be receiving bass.

Will let you know and post a pic once the centre has been installed on the bracket with my impressions

 

[Oldboy]

Hi stu,

Looks like you have your tv positioned correctly along with your fronts when you get the bracket (you won't regret it!) and i have my tv mounted at almost the centre of the screen but due to my rack and equipment it's a couple of cm's out but it's as near as i can get it. I may well get an SPL meter at some point but finances are a bit tight after i bought my new bluray player, i know they aren't expensive so i may well get one when my finances recover.

Your rear speakers are definately in the right position and i too find that with that extra height you get better surround effects and as you say the surround field is less prone to needing you to be in the sweet spot. Mmmm i bet your fronts sound lovely with that extra bass weight now they are set to large and i have to say i'm rather jealous.

It seems you are right about my speaker settings and i have changed them to small as the manual suggests and it definately sounds sweeter as a result so many thanks for the spot as i never read that part in the manual

i just went with the auto setup settings my amp made and it set them to large which is a bit strange but i think i prefer them set to small but obviously you loose a little bass.

Now crossover is where i start to get lost so any light you can shed on the subject would be much appreciated! I think from reding the manual i have the sub set correctly (up to 90hz) and i have set it to just over 80hz as 90 was to overbearing but i am lost when it comes to the 1010i's....my amp has settings for front, centre and surround crossover and my amp has set all 3 to 120hz which i'm sure is wrong no??? If i read the manual correctly then they should be set to 60 or 70hz but to be totally honest i'm not entirely sure if that is right and i don't even know what the crossover is for or does LOL! So for now i have left it on the auto setup of 120hz and hope you can shed some light on the correct settings if possible

I see your onkyo amp has one global setting unlike mine which has 3 settings as i explained earlier but in answer to your question i have no idea what the difference is between the crossover and large and small settings i'm afraid but as for where to set the level i would have thought that you set them to the lower level as just the centre channel has the highest setting but i may well be wrong about that due to my limited knowledge on the subject but it does seem logical.

Oh dear i just read your update (i didn't see it at first read lol) and it would seem i was wrong in that assumption then! So if i'm correct from what you have said here my front crossover should be (my amp goes up in 10 point increments) 40 or 50hz and the same for the surrounds and then 70 or 80hz for the centre is that right or have i totally misunderstood you? LOL the whole subject is rather confusing and i'm having de ja vue here as weren't the roles reversed at the begining of this thread

By the way thanks for adding me on xbl, i don't use my xbox that often as most of my games are for PS3 and i only have a small ammount of 360 games: Left 4 Dead 1, Forza3, The Orange Box, Crackdown, PGR3 and Stranglehold.

 

[Anonymous]

The centre has been placed on the wal now

Sorry about the quality of the pic, my blackberry doesnt take the best pics to be fair;



Thx states that all speakers should be set to 80hz on the crossover, that is if you would like to follow there recommended settings, basically you want to go only as low as the speaker can handle.

The1010i state 68hz - could set that to 70hz

The 1000Ci is 75hz - could set that to 80hz

1050i is 44hz- I set mine to Large so they ignore the crossover frequency and get a full range signal

You want all your speakers set to small, when setting them to large you are giving them a full range signal including all the bass, which is not good for smaller speakers. In the manual it says you can go as high as 90hz for the 1010i's, you wouldn't want to go much higher than 90hz though as you can start to hear exactly where the bass is coming from.

THX like it set to 80hz as they think its better for your sub to do all the heavier lifting.

I have my crossover at 80hz to allow some overlap, ideally the sub needs to doing the bass on all but beasty floorstanders.

Even if I had a setting for each speaker I would still set them all to 80hz, just because the 1010i can possibly go down to 68hz doesn't mean you should try and go so close.

Have a look around at the 1050i also, it wont be long before they are gone forever, got mine for £200 from Superfi, however you are running low on money after your bluray purchase so maybe not.

Also make sure that the back of your sub is set to 150hz or AV, so it doesn't try and mess with your amps settings.

Let me know how you get on ;-)

Have a read of this;

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

 

[Oldboy]

Nice one stu with the centre speaker and it seems the tv is still at the right height so top marks, have you noticed any improvements to the sound since you got it on the bracket?

I have kept my speaker settings on small since your last post and i have to say the more i listen the better it gets and the benefits of setting them this way are there for all to hear. I will be keeping this setting especially after i read the link you added to the last post, many thanks by the way and yes it was incredibly helpful

.

I'm going to tackle the crossover settings today and will make your suggested changes (think i will start by setting 1010i's to 80hz) but i do have a question for you, for the sub the manual says to set the crossover at max 90hz and not as you suggested at 150hz or AV. I'm now a little confused as to which is right and how it may conflict with my amp settings???? I'm happy setting my 1010i's to 80hz but there does seem a very large distance between the 2 settings for the sub, so i will just have to try both settings today and see if i can tell the difference.

I've looked at the 1050i and 1030i floorstanders since before xmas but i just can't justify the purchase as i have 7.1 already and to add another pair of speakers would be a case of overkill i think, plus i will have a pair of speakers left over! I've thought about it ALOT and i nearly got the speakers instead of the bluray player.....part of me says get them now while you can and they are cheap but the rational part of me says it's a waste of money and the gain in performance won't be that much so don't bother. At the moment it's money that is the deciding factor or the lack of it should i say lol.

Will post an edit later with the results of how i get on and once again many thanks for the help with the crossover settings, very much appreciated!!

 

[Anonymous]

Basically you are setting the crossover in the amp itself, so you don't want the subwoofers crossover to mess about with your settings and create any gaps in your sound. Say you had your amp at 80hz and your sub at 60hz, that would be a 20hz gap in the sound

I can't see in the manual about 90hz for the subwoofer, I can only see where it says to set it to 70hz, either way you want it on the highest setting to avoid any gaps and get the subwoofer out of the way.

The centre speaker does sound better for being up a little higher for sure, was definitely worth doing.

Let me know how you get on with it, I have set all my speakers back to small now and I'm gonna let the sub to the deeper bass, although my front speakers can go lower than 80hz down to 44hz I don't want the 3 different sources of deeper bass. It just doesn't seem like the way to go.

I was thinking about upping my amp to the 606 for individual crossovers but everyone just says to stick with an 80hz global setting and set to small so doesn't seem worth it for me.

 

[Oldboy]

Hello mate,

So i have had my sub set to 150hz for almost 24hrs now with mixed results.....the downsides are that during more atmospheric movies the sub is too noticeable and seems to be forever firing low end bass that is uncomfortable on the ear, i have lowered the sub level on my amp and on the back of the woofer to compensate but you loose the impact that setting provides. That brings me to the upside which is that extra impact!! Blimey i don't think my sofa has ever rocked that much (sorry neighbours!) so i'm going to percivere with it, i just need to get that happy medium by tinkering a little more today. Just out of interest i couldn't find reference in the manual to the AV setting on the sub crossover and i'm just wondering what it is for? I'm going to set that today after i've got the best setting from 150hz and give it another 24hrs so i can make my mind up which i prefer.

The section in the manual that states the sub setting being set to a max of 90hz is in the 1000i subwoofer - operation page under the crossover frequency section, have a read as it clearly states that 'with smaller speakers such as the 1010i this can be increased as far as 90hz. At higher settings the subwoofer may become intrusive and low level detail and definition may suffer' i'm going to try all three settings over the weekend to see which is best anyway but i'm still confused

Glad you are happy with the centre now it's wall mounted and it really is a cheap effective upgrade and well worth a tenner eh!

Been thinking myself about changing receiver this year as i really would like a beefier sound and a bit more from my music but i'm in no rush for that (unless i see a bargain on the Denon AVR1910 of course!) and a new pair of fronts may well come first if i can get my hands on some 1050i's or 1030i's even, then i may well be tempted.....

Will post back tomorrow with results of sub crossover testing and tell you how i got on in the meantime have a good weekend.

 

[Anonymous]

Basically you were probably losing alot of HZ before by having the Sub crossover on as well as the amps, you have it set the way you should now.

Here is some more information on it;
You do want to set the subwoofer's crossover to its maximum rotation so you remove it from the circuit. This is done to avoid "cascading" two crossovers, which might cause uneven and erratic deep bass output.
I 100% gaurantee that this is the correct way, always put the subwoofer crossover to max, otherwise you have two things doing the same job, the manual is sometimes confusing. If you were only using the subwoofer as the crossover and putting your amp to 150HZ then it would be fine but setting two is always going to mean you are losing HZ for sure. You just need to calibrate your sub now it is configured properly to get the correct level.
However if you like it how it was before then by all means go ahead a leave it like that

Also play with your crossover level, as that also affects your level of bass.

Think of it this way, if you crossover is set to 80HZ then everything below 80HZ goes to the Sub and everything above it goes to the speakers. The best way to setup your sub is to put some good music or a film with some decent bass and try and adjust till you are happy and its not going mental with bass.

I ordered some QAcoustics 1020i's in Cherry for my rears, I'm replacing the 1010i. I managed to get them for a good price so i'm going for it

Let me know how you get on

 

[Oldboy]

You lucky man....they will sound lovely

Thanks very much for the explanation, the penny has dropped now! Just couldn't get my head round it that's all but thanks to your reply it's alot clearer now....thanks again. I've not changed the sub crossover and kept it at 150hz, after some more tweaking with levels it sounds really nice and that overbearing bass has been tamed now to a level that is just right (still get the extra impact without it being overbearing). I'm really happy with the outcome and i've been watching LOTS of movies this weekend and most have taken on another dimension in the sound department, even dvd's benefit.

I looked at some 1030i's yesterday (£129 Richer Sounds) and if i had the money i would have bought them on the spot, but i've yet to find a set of 1050i's that i can actually look at and hear as most stock seems to be held by internet retailers now but if i have enough money at the end of the month and can still track down some stock i'm going for it and i'm not too bothered which i get but obviously i would like to get the 1050i's if i can....fingers crossed.

Just out of interest what deal did you get on your 1020i's? Hope you get them soon and look forward to hearing your views on them so post back on here if you can when they have arrived.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi again,

Here is a picture of the beasts as I have named then;



Superfi.co.uk have a deal on them at the moment for £79.95, basically the same as the 1010i cherry cost so I got all over that. As you can see they look double the size really. However as yet I haven't really been able to test them out, just been too busy.

Have you sorted your settings out now?

Did you end up setting individual crossover settings for your speakers?

I have re-calibrated mine with my SPL meter and set all speakers to 80hz and got the Sub level to just where I want it to be. My amp has a pure audio mode so that when I am listening to music I get the full range from the Floorstanders and that sounds great for music listening, nothing but the front two playing.

I think thats the way to go for me, I did borrow a friends Onkyo 707 for the last weekend to try out all the settings with the crossover to see if I needed to upgrade and I found it best to set the speakers all to 80hz and let the sub do the work. To many sources of bass definately rings true. It was he that put me onto the pure audio mode for music so its all looking pretty good now.

Just a few more tweaks with my rear placing to get the best out of them next I think.