Follow up: Is 30w class A Accuphase amp enough for ATC SCM 19?

[robhifi]

This is a follow up post for the previous "Please advice, is 30w class A enough for ATC SCM19"

I got the 19 for about 2 weeks now and they've been run-in for about 60 hours with both FM and Maron 5(sorry, that's about the most "rock" cd I own) .

As been advised by most fellow members of this great forum earlier, the Accuphase 30w amp is powerful enough for the 19s. In my smallish room (3mx4.5m and 3m height),the volume is already loud enough with the Accuphase pre amp set at 9 o'clock.

One notable thing that sets ATC from the rest (like spendor 1/2,minima and PROAC d2 I owned) is "extreme amount of details". The 19 is so so detailed and transparent and I believe I hear something never heard before.

The bass with sealed design is something to get used to. I have always owned ported speakers and found ATC's bass cutting off a little too "early". The bass amount is improved over the scm7 previously owned but still, they don't shake my chair or room as much as ,say the spendor 1/2 or Proac D2.

Of course, it's very clear,fast,well defined kind of bass. Or shall we say, realistic bass?
Or maybe, the 30w class A amp couldn't get full bass out of the 19?
It's worth mentioning, when playing bass heavy tracks,the way the bass drive moves in and out, can hurt your finger a little ...if you put your finger on it that is

Advice anybody?

 

[BigH]

Thats interesting as it rather contradicts this review "Given the low 85dB sensitivity, high power is essential. ATC suggests anything between 50 and 300 watts, but you'd need a pretty stiff power supply in an amp at the bottom end of that scale."

 

[Macspur]

This is a follow up post for the previous "Please advice, is 30w class A enough for ATC SCM19" I got the 19 for about 2 weeks now and they've been run-in for about 60 hours with both FM and Maron 5(sorry, that's about the most "rock" cd I own) . As been advised by most fellow members of this great forum earlier, the Accuphase 30w amp is powerful enough for the 19s. In my smallish room (3mx4.5m and 3m height),the volume is already loud enough with the Accuphase pre amp set at 9 o'clock. One notable thing that sets ATC from the rest (like spendor 1/2,minima and PROAC d2 I owned) is "extreme amount of details". The 19 is so so detailed and transparent and I believe I hear something never heard before. The bass with sealed design is something to get used to. I have always owned ported speakers and found ATC's bass cutting off a little too "early". The bass amount is improved over the scm7 previously owned but still, they don't shake my chair or room as much as ,say the spendor 1/2 or Proac D2. Of course, it's very clear,fast,well defined kind of bass. Or shall we say, realistic bass? Or maybe, the 30w class A amp couldn't get full bass out of the 19? It's worth mentioning, when playing bass heavy tracks,the way the bass drive moves in and out, can hurt your finger a little ...if you put your finger on it that is Advice anybody?

Hi,

Good to hear back from you.

Yes, you've described how I found the ATC sound.

Whether or not it was due to the Sugden Class A deficiencies, quite possibly, that plus the Naim CDP I was using at the time,

I just couldn't live with the SCM40's... with some music i.e electronic they sounded amazingly visceral as if you could almost reach out and touch the music, but with my favourite genre acoustic they sounded dry and tame, so just had to change them.

I would be intrigued to hear ATC now with my E350 and EMC1UP.

I notice you have some SF speakers... how do they sound with the Accuphase amps?

Mac

 

[nopiano]

Rob, I arrived here from your earlier thread. I now see you've had the ATCs for two weeks.

You also list several other speakers, many of which I would be happy with. What's the big deal with the ATCs? I've always found ATC quite nice in a rather explicit studio sense, but hardly enjoyable, just 'matter of fact'. If you want an analogy, they are more mathamatician than musician!

It seems bizarre to buy speakers when unsure how to make them work at their best. Especially when personally I'm not sure I'd even want them at their best...

 

[bluedroog]

the bass drive moves in and out, can hurt your finger a little ...if you put your finger on it that is Advice anybody?

Yes, don't put your finger on it!oke:

Large cone excursion isn’t normally a good sign but I think the case is different with ATC speakers, the sealed cabinet and hugely engineered drives means you’ll get a lot, lot more than with many other designs.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Yup, the ATC SL drivers (I believe) have a long magnetic gap and a short voice coil to keep the drivers output linear at higher volumes/excursions. As long as you are not playing 20Hz test tones at very high volumes you will be fine, they should take more abuse than most smaller speakers.

 

[robhifi]

Big,I am sure that power suggestion is for class AB amp.
Accuphase a35 can produce more current than many well known class AB amp rated at 200w.

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. You should live with the ATCs for a while.....and then compare with something else. You will then either prefer what you have, or you will change.

 

[MajorFubar]

Stating the obvious here but sealed enclosures ('infinate baffle') are always going to give you a different type of bass to ported speakers ('reflex').

I'm generalising again and I'm sure there are exceptions, but to get deep thumping bass from sealed units you need proper-big drivers, and if engineered well the bass from them will knock you flat, as well as being as taut and crisp as you like. Most smaller speakers are ported, because with clever design and tuning, ported smaller speakers can still sound 'big' kind of.

The only sealed-enclosure speakers I ever owned were Celestion DL-6, and I ended-up getting rid of them because I just could not get on with the bass. Somehow it never escaped from the box. Vowed I'd never buy sealed speakers again until I could afford - and find a place for - really big expensive ones. I'm still waiting lol.

 

[robhifi]

Well Mac, "not room shaking enough" is so far the only drawback with the 19s.
I am very happy otherwise, especially the female vocal and overall extreme level of details.

ATC 40 would be much more difficult to get right I guess. Pls correct me If you think I am wrong, but the reason your 40 sounded "dry and tame" (that's a very serious accusation by the way >) ) is probably because it didn't get enough current/power from your Sugden.

I used e460 with ATC scm7 for a while and they didn't sound very good to me.
Then I got the a35 and they worked much better. That's the key reason I moved up to 19.
So please drop the thought of trying your e350 with ATC >)

The SF Minima Vintage was bought together with the 19s.
They don't and can't sound as big and dynamic as the 19s, but with Accuphase , they are mellow, comfy and romantic sounding.
It's also shocking to notice, the Minima's 4.5inch mid bass is able to push so much air in my small room, the port tuning did the trick I guess.
Lastly, the look and the craftsmanship ,you know Italians have a way with those things.

Have fun

 

[robhifi]

Thank for the comment NOP.
I am sure many people share your view about ATC being "too explicit" .

In fact,maybe we should put it this way:
ATC reveals almost exactly the sound that comes from your front end gears (cd to pre to amp that is).
If your front-end sound is already mellow,warm etc,you will not hear otherwise ( eg."too explicit") from the ATC.

Bizarre or not, I get great fun from trying different speakers. Having fun matters the most.
Wouldn't you agree Nopiano?

By the way, I bought the SF MINIMA VINTAGE together with the 19s, I see you also own SF.
So we have something in common at least.

 

[robhifi]

ATC19 is definitely here to stay....until I move to higher grade ATC that is.

Cno, you did recommended some (very expensive) class AB power amps to me before and that is highly appreciated.

Do you think, a powerful class AB amp (200w x 2) will get more performance,especially the bass, out of the 19s?
I am thinking of getting one by the end of this year but don't intend to spend a fortune.

I heard that AUDIOLAB 8200mb works well with the 19s, what's your view? Poor man's Bryston?
And would 8200mb outperform MF m6prx(260Wx2) for the 19s?
Some local Chinese HEGEL sales claim that HEGEL amps(damping factor over 1000). "is made for crushing/conquer ATCs".
What do you think of that?

Sorry for so many questions and thanks. :rant:

 

[CnoEvil]

Do you think, a powerful class AB amp (200w x 2) will get more performance,especially the bass, out of the 19s? I am thinking of getting one by the end of this year but don't intend to spend a fortune.

That's a hard question to answer.

Going with an expensive AB amp, you "might" get a little more bass....but could lose the magic of Class A. Also, how much more bass do the ATC 19s have to give?

FWIW. My 35i gives seismic bass, and imo has outperformed some (fairly expensive) AB amps with considerably more power.....this is one of its particular strengths.

 

[nopiano]

Thank for the comment NOP. I am sure many people share your view about ATC being "too explicit" . In fact,maybe we should put it this way: ATC reveals almost exactly the sound that comes from your front end gears (cd to pre to amp that is). If your front-end sound is already mellow,warm etc,you will not hear otherwise ( eg."too explicit") from the ATC. Bizarre or not, I get great fun from trying different speakers. Having fun matters the most. Wouldn't you agree Nopiano? By the way, I bought the SF MINIMA VINTAGE together with the 19s, I see you also own SF. So we have something in common at least.

Absolutely, and no problem with having fun getting the best from things either. To me, Sf and ATC are so different I cannot imagine liking both. But everyone has different tastes otherwise there would only be a few items of audio gear to choose and that would be awful! I might consider ATC for a studio, or testing gear (I think the WHF team uses the 40s) but not for enjoyment of music at home.

 

[hoopsontoast]

ATC19 is definitely here to stay....until I move to higher grade ATC that is. Cno, you did recommended some (very expensive) class AB power amps to me before and that is highly appreciated. Do you think, a powerful class AB amp (200w x 2) will get more performance,especially the bass, out of the 19s? I am thinking of getting one by the end of this year but don't intend to spend a fortune. I heard that AUDIOLAB 8200mb works well with the 19s, what's your view? Poor man's Bryston? And would 8200mb outperform MF m6prx(260Wx2) for the 19s? Some local Chinese HEGEL sales claim that HEGEL amps(damping factor over 1000). "is made for crushing/conquer ATCs". What do you think of that? Sorry for so many questions and thanks. :rant:

FWIW, I thought the 8200MB worked really well with the SCM7 when I had them at home, and it was a great partnering with the SCM19 when I demoed them. Only heard the difference at higher volumes though.

 

[robhifi]

I totally get your point Cno and grateful for your comments.
So, I will stick to the current amp then if you think a AB amp will make little difference.

Class A all the way, I will consider add another A35 for bi-amping and dual mono setup.

When bridged, A35 becomes a 120w class A mono block.
Being powerful for sure, but do you think the bridged mode will effect the sound in a bad way?
"Less refinement" comes to my mind.

 

[Macspur]

Well Mac, "not room shaking enough" is so far the only drawback with the 19s. I am very happy otherwise, especially the female vocal and overall extreme level of details. ATC 40 would be much more difficult to get right I guess. Pls correct me If you think I am wrong, but the reason your 40 sounded "dry and tame" (that's a very serious accusation by the way >) ) is probably because it didn't get enough current/power from your Sugden. I used e460 with ATC scm7 for a while and they didn't sound very good to me. Then I got the a35 and they worked much better. That's the key reason I moved up to 19. So please drop the thought of trying your e350 with ATC >) The SF Minima Vintage was bought together with the 19s. They don't and can't sound as big and dynamic as the 19s, but with Accuphase , they are mellow, comfy and romantic sounding. It's also shocking to notice, the Minima's 4.5inch mid bass is able to push so much air in my small room, the port tuning did the trick I guess. Lastly, the look and the craftsmanship ,you know Italians have a way with those things. Have fun

Don't worry, I have no intention of ever going back to ATC... Harbeth gives me every bit as much detail, but adds just the right amount of warmth creating just the right balance.

If I do change and it won't be for a while yet, I'll look at the likes of SF, PMC, Focal and Cno take note, KEF.

You say you are looking to try a more powerful amp with the 19's, but you said the E460 at 180W was a poor match! can't imagine Audiolab being any better.

Yes, the ATC is an extremely transparent speaker and definitely needs careful component matching.

Glad you're enjoying yourself and keep us posted on your adventures.

Mac

 

[CnoEvil]

I totally get your point Cno and grateful for your comments. So, I will stick to the current amp then if you think a AB amp will make little difference. Class A all the way, I will consider add another A35 for bi-amping and dual mono setup. When bridged, A35 becomes a 120w class A mono block. Being powerful for sure, but do you think the bridged mode will effect the sound in a bad way? "Less refinement" comes to my mind.

Please take my thoughts as no more than that....and certainly not gospel.

I have no experience of bridging.....but would expect the sound to get better. IMO. Be careful not to spend more money than would get a single better amp (ie.at the cost of the two Accuphase).

 

[Singslinger]

Hi Robhifi, If you do switch to an AB amp, may I suggest you stick to Accuphase so as to match your preamp? There is the P-6100 which is rated at 110 watts into 8 ohms but knowing Accuphase, this is hugely understated. It's more expensive than the A-35 but it might give better control over your speakers.

However, being a class A fan myself, I personally would not do the switch. I auditioned the A-46 (45w, class A) and the P-6100 and although the latter was very good, the A-46 was to my ears more musical and involving.

Of course, you go even higher, up to the A-65... >)

 

[robhifi]

Mac, my point is, ATC needs current more than watts.
Accuphase 460 is rated at 180w 8ohm, with 33,000 μFx2 capacitors.
While A35, being only 30w 8ohm, has 47,000 μF x 2 capacitors.

I did AB comparison of E460 and A35(using E460 as preamp) with scm 7, and found a35 to be more attractive sounding.

 

[robhifi]

Thanks for the suggestion.
P6100 is much much more expensive than a-35.
Even here in China, it costs about 7k pounds.

As you suggested, my next upgrade will most likely be the A-46.
The only thing that troubles me is that, the cost of upgrading to A46(selling a-35 as second hand) is almost the same as getting another a-35.
Well, HIFI is all about decision making I guess....

 

[Exoticsounds]

You earlier mentioned that you wanted to test out a pair of Dynaudio C1, you should give that a go since it might actually give you a better result than changing amp.

 

[Neuphonix]

You earlier mentioned that you wanted to test out a pair of Dynaudio C1, you should give that a go since it might actually give you a better result than changing amp.

I would agree with this.

You could check out the Diablos as well while you're at it! Possibly not quite the bottom end of the C1's but arguably more refined and sooooo much sexier!

 

[gasolin]

I totally get your point Cno and grateful for your comments. So, I will stick to the current amp then if you think a AB amp will make little difference. Class A all the way, I will consider add another A35 for bi-amping and dual mono setup. When bridged, A35 becomes a 120w class A mono block. Being powerful for sure, but do you think the bridged mode will effect the sound in a bad way? "Less refinement" comes to my mind.

Bridge do make a huge difference to the bass and the dynamics, (had way back a set of Rotel RB-980BX bridged) i am happy with my DenonDRA-F10,(think its the same amplifier as the denon ceol) and dali Zensor 1 (about 86.5 db) in turms of power.

TH ATC SCM with to numbers 11 and bigger they don't have so high sensitivity BUT they do play loud with lots of power so 100 watt and i think you will be fine.

Was thinking about if you biamped them so with 2 amplifiers you would have 2x35 watt for each speaker and bi wiring, but i got away form that quickly and would deffinitly use them bridged and with biwiring, lots of power, very good dynamics and bass(a bit more tighter precise and it might also sound deeper)

 

[Macspur]

Mac, my point is, ATC needs current more than watts. Accuphase 460 is rated at 180w 8ohm, with 33,000 μFx2 capacitors. While A35, being only 30w 8ohm, has 47,000 μF x 2 capacitors. I did AB comparison of E460 and A35(using E460 as preamp) with scm 7, and found a35 to be more attractive sounding.

I realise that it's current that counts, but I was a little confused as you were considering Audiolab as an alternative and I couldn't imagine that being better than the E460.