Finding my home cinema sound lacking

[nugget2014]

What my sub does is shake the whole room with every bass note (in a way) but I'd like a sub where it can have punch and also shake the room it's hard to describe..

best way to describe it is being able to feel the bass too without it destroying your whole room shaking it etc (have never actually felt the bass with this sub) in any place I had it in my room. That's why I was thinking about a sealed as it's less picky could have it in front of me next to my bookshelf speakers and am i right to think they peak in the 40hz region which is what frequency you feel the most?

 

[nugget2014]

Not sure on the anti mode BB. It's not 100% guaranteed to make a big difference is it? And if it doesn't it's a waste of £200 really. And I'd probably manage to still mess it up!

 

[bigboss]

Not sure on the anti mode BB. It's not 100% guaranteed to make a big difference is it? And if it doesn't it's a waste of £200 really. And I'd probably manage to still mess it up!

Speak to David at Frank Harvey Hi Fi. He may be able to loan you one to test before purchase.

 

[ellisdj]

That sounds to me like the crossover is too low and your not getting enough bass support from the speakers. Its irrelevant what speakers you have

Your turning the sub up to try and get more of the bass thats missing and just getting more of the bass you have already got.

Try a higher crossover! such as 150hz

 

[bigboss]

That sounds to me like the crossover is too low and your not getting enough bass support from the speakers.  Its irrelevant what speakers you have

Your turning the sub up to try and get more of the bass thats missing and just getting more of the bass you have already got.

Try a higher crossover! such as 150hz

It wasn't clear if the OP meant 40Hz is the crossover point or whether the subwoofer makes its presence most felt at 40Hz.

 

[ellisdj]

Agreed but both is the same result - X Over is too low I would bet

He will need to adjust the levels of the sub once the crossover is changed and it might be more directional - but if there is more of the bass he is looking for then its a step in the right direction.

Its either this or somehting is setup wrong because +10 as the level on the receiver just seems plain wrong - it should be 0 max and normally a minus

 

[michael hoy]

80Hz crossover should be OK with these speakers, I do agree +10dB is excessive for the receiver.

My sub is set at -10dB on the receiver with all the settings as per the manual for the sub, before Antimode it was -9.5dB.

 

[ellisdj]

You will be surprised what a higher crossover setup system sounds like - its irrelevant what speakers you have its their location to the listening position thats more important. You only need to hear it once (setup well) to realise how well it works

80hz is not high enough in my system and I have speakers easily capable of doing it and MUCH more amplification headroom than most / is needed - its nothing to do with that.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

I've had a quick scan of recent posts and simply do not believe what I'm reading.

Setting crossover to 150Hz?

Audyssey DOES manage the subwoofer.

As I stated previously, I do override its recommendation of setting speakers to full range (large), but in my fairly standard speakers a low crossover works. 40Hz for floorstanders and 50Hz for bookshelves.

maybe my Av receiver allows this as it is a midrange model so it has plenty of control and power. I don't know. But I do know that my setup method previously stated gives great results.

I need my system to work for stereo, SACD and movies, so I need subtlety aa well as power, so the method does work.

 

[bigboss]

I've had a quick scan of recent posts and simply do not believe what I'm reading.

Setting crossover to 150Hz?

Audyssey DOES manage the subwoofer.

As I stated previously, I do override its recommendation of setting speakers to full range (large), but in my fairly standard speakers a low crossover works. 40Hz for floorstanders and 50Hz for bookshelves.

maybe my Av receiver allows this as it is a midrange model so it has plenty of control and power. I don't know. But I do know that my setup method previously stated gives great results.

I need my system to work for stereo, SACD and movies, so I need subtlety aa well as power, so the method does work.

Which speakers have you got?

I've had to manually readjust my subwoofer's settings after running Audyssey.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

As I said before, where I outlined how I do my setup, the final setup is to adjust volume of subwoofer just a bit to suit.

I have Tannoy DC2 for fronts. They have an extra woofer, being floorstanders.

I have DC1 for rear.

DCC for centre.

Mercury for side channels.

Subwoofer is a Velodyne VX10. Which is an analogue subwoofer with no EQ, just a phase switch, a crossover that is set to max to allow receiver to control this, and a volume knob.

Receiver is Onkyo 805 - incidentally, the first receiver sub £1000 in the U.K. to achieve DSD to analogue direct, and the HD decoding for Blu Rays, and also have Audyssey EQ - back in 2007!!

 

[FunkyMonkey]

P.S., I have dedicated AV room now, but even when I did not and used left half of living rooms (in past two houses) for a 5.1 setup using same gear (bar the mercury) I used to get stonking sound.

 

[bigboss]

Hmmm....interesting. Tannoy DC1 has a low frequency response of 34Hz. The general recommendation is to set the crossover point atleast 10Hz above it.

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/setting-the-subwoofer-lfe-crossover-for-best-performance

It may help if you set crossover point at 50 or 60Hz all round as a starting point.

 

[ellisdj]

The suggesting of a higher Xover is to the op who has stated his system is lacking in bass - not lower bass quite clearly upper bass by his descriptions

There is no problem running a system with a higher crossover and using the subs for bass in terms of sound quality - sub quality factored in. This is different to old fashioned thinking of it must be 80hz xover but that does not mean it doesnt work really well.

Subs can be placed independently in the room to the speakers both in their ideal positions - very rarely is a speaker positioned in the room for best bass - its positoned for best imaging and then the resultant bass response is a secondary - or its a trade off of the 2.

This is new to me as well but I have heard it work extremelty well and has helped me in my room no end

Also you cannot judge a crossover point by the stats on the manual of a speaker which is often semi or anacheic - you have no idea how the rooms interactions is effecting the freq repsonse at the listening position unless your measure it and it will eb vastly different to the specified specs unless you are extremely lucky.

 

[michael hoy]

There becomes a point though were frequencies are sent to the sub that should not be, this then becomes muddled with the frequencies that should be there.

 

[ellisdj]

Why and who determines what those frequencies are?

What basis do you make that statement off?

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Why and who determines what those frequencies are?

What basis do you make that statement off?

This is a good question.
my own personal answer is:

DO avoid higher bass frequencies into the subwoofer, I.e. when the sound from your subwoofer can be localised then the frequencies being sent to it are too high....Unless those frequencies are from the .1 (lfe). I'm not sure of the science of what frequencies our ears can localise.

DO strive for a rich sound from, especially, from front speakers. You know when you are in cinema and you get that baritone sound from the whole sound field. That creamy richness. I cannot get this sound if I set my speaker crossover at 80hz for example.

Obviously having high volume speakers helps.

Caveat: leave some headroom if that is the correct word, so that speakers are not preoccupied with churning out lower frequencies at the expense of mid range...especially pertinent with music

 

[ellisdj]

higher frequencies to the subwoofer is not directional with dual sub woofers.

Sending higher freq's to the sub 150 - 200hz ish for example gives a richer, more punchy sound - more cinematic sound if the subs are setup correctly in terms of sub location etc. Bass timing and attack is improved no end - negatives are more uneven bass response so more eq is needed to fix this - you can never win with sound in a room

The Steinway SL system uses big subwoofers x2 minimum in the front coners - then has tiny speakers for the mains crossed over at 250hz

This is a truely excellent system for Home Cinema and proves high crossovers can work very well. This system proves it can / does work so its silly to completely rule it out

 

[nugget2014]

above 80hz directional bass will not work in my current room and placement i can tell you that now. and michael hoy said he has -10db on his receiver instead of +10db. i tried that and the bass was really non existant for music!

and just to clarify, i have my crossover set to 80hz. using dali zensor 3 speakers also.

 

[michael hoy]

above 80hz directional bass will not work in my current room and placement i can tell you that now. and michael hoy said he has -10db on his receiver instead of +10db. i tried that and the bass was really non existant for music!

and just to clarify, i have my crossover set to 80hz. using dali zensor 3 speakers also.

Setting yours to the same as mine will not work for your setup, I have not used Audessey for a few years now having had Pioneer with it's own MCACC which in my model does not do sub eq.

All I can say is make sure the sub is set as per the manual, maybe volume at about the 10 o'clock position.

Set the amp volume to reference level i.e 0 (full volume) then

Re run the receiver auto set up again and make sure the speakers are picked up as small.

Then see what the receiver has set the sub at for distance and the channel level as in mine being - 10dB.

I believe that Audessey uses multi point positioning when running the set up, make sure you follow this.

Mine only does one, but it is the main listening position.

I use the SPL meter in my one position and run the manual test tone, then adjust if necessary setting all the speakers to 75 dB.

The sub is harder but you can try if needed to achieve 75 dB with the SPL meter.

This would be a starting point.

Remember to turn the volume down and the end.

 

[nugget2014]

and how would i go about connecting the antimode to the subwoofer? i use optical cable from av to sub. and i read that is uses xlr cables or something? im assuming i could still connect it to my sub. sounds interesting lot of people gave positive reviews.

 

[ellisdj]

above 80hz directional bass will not work in my current room and placement i can tell you that now. and michael hoy said he has -10db on his receiver instead of +10db. i tried that and the bass was really non existant for music!

and just to clarify, i have my crossover set to 80hz. using dali zensor 3 speakers also.

You have missed the point - trying a higher crossover might make the bass more directional but if it gives you more of the bass you say is missing then you can look to address the system setup to account for this and you still end up with the right end result

Also wiring optical to the sub seems odd - normally its wired to via an analogue connection - maybe this is the issue, maybe an odd digital signal from the receiver?

 

[michael hoy]

Ok,

Firstly there is no optical input on your sub.

On the back of the sub looking at the top right you have 3 connections, 2 paired L&R line in and one LFE the last one of the three.

This is the one to use and this connects to the subwoofer out on your amp.

Set the crossover on the sub to max and the volume to 12 o'clock.

Set the phase to zero and the power to Auto.

All these settings are in the top portion of the rear panel.

Put the setup microphone in your listening position at ear height and re run your Audessey setup.

Make sure your speakers are set to small and set the crossover in the amp menu to 100 Hz.

Your sub cable should have ends like this:

and not like this:

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Hi Nugget.... I think we have had various discussions in the past about your subwoofer. And if i remember you live in a flat. So i suspect you have suspended floor with no acoustic filling/ insulation between the rafters and the boards......

I have/had the same problem in my surround sound system is upstairs but i’ve over come it buy careful placement and experimentation it not perfect but it will never be.

That alone can/will take all the punch from your system!!!!

Have you tried putting some thick bits wood like MDF, plywood and or granite under it to tighten it up? and the same for speakers

All the tips above have been said before to you on multiple threads. And I have a funny feeling that your expecting to much from it. But having said that a sealed sub may sound better but a ported sub will give massive sound for any given size so may be worth a look.

A properly set up subwoofer though should disappear into the sound stage. Yes some people like to run in hot but it really should just blend and never really draw attention to itself.

Like i’ve said to you before turn off your eq system and start with the basics!!!! Place the sub where you think it sounds best then move it around till starts to sound it full and clean (a few inches at a time). Just take the EQ out of the equation for now its a pain in the arse to keep redoing it till you know roughly what sounds good.

There is no real science to it you just have to try and see whats best. There are tool you can use like the REW wizard which is free but you will need to invest in a mic and will take all the guess work out of it.

Also if i remember correctly you front speakers aren't very far apart, This will also impact the dynamics of the system. Maybe just maybe! its not your bass thats missing! your midrange range could be very muffled. A certain amount of midrange is miss understood to be bass when its not!

True bass doesn’t start till 30hz if not lower (which is where most start to roll off which is useless IMO). Yes the subwoofer cross’s over these frequencies augmenting them and making them stronger ( hence the crossover point) but if your main speakers are placed wrong a lot of the dynamics/punch is lost also. Hence your music not sounding as good as it could be. Its why sub sat system sound poo with music the midrange just isn't there.

Failing all the above you may have to accept that the room is sucking all the impactful mid bass out of the room (the 40-60hz region) and without treatments will never be sorted, no amount of EQ or movement of speakers will help….

Houses are not made to be cinemas and I'm really seriously looking into just getting myself a really nice stereo now. Im looking in to a naim uniti 2 with a PCM twenty 23’s (which i will be home testing soon) , tv and blu ray can connect over the digital inputs and that will do me. Far simpler for me at least.

I find my self only watching one movie a month if that and feel just having these boxes all over the place is getting to be a big pain in my arse really, dusting,wires and what ever not.

 

[nugget2014]

Ok,

Firstly there is no optical input on your sub.

On the back of the sub looking at the top right you have 3 connections, 2 paired L&R line in and one LFE the last one of the three.

This is the one to use and this connects to the subwoofer out on your amp.

Set the crossover on the sub to max and the volume to 12 o'clock.

Set the phase to zero and the power to Auto.

All these settings are in the top portion of the rear panel.

Put the setup microphone in your listening position at ear height and re run your Audessey setup.

Make sure your speakers are set to small and set the crossover in the amp menu to 100 Hz.

Your sub cable should have ends like this:

and not like this:

yeah the top one is what i use. i just thought it was called an optical cable.got it from richer sounds for £20 i believe. 15m of cambridge audio cable. im gonna try and get one to test before i buy to see it if worth it. might not want to upgrade my sub anymore then!