Filling a room with sound

[Artoo]

Stand mount speakers often seem to be recommended for smaller rooms, while floorstanders are often said to better suit larger rooms.

What trait(s) of the floorstanders would you say make them more suitable for the bigger room, and more pleasantly fills it with sound? Greater bass extension? Larger cone area? Something else?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Stand mount speakers often seem to be recommended for smaller rooms, while floorstanders are often said to better suit larger rooms.

What trait(s) of the floorstanders would you say make them more suitable for the bigger room, and more pleasantly fills it with sound? Greater bass extension? Larger cone area? Something else?

I feel floor standing speakers are better then stand mounted speakers

your moving more air because of the lager cabinets , bigger drivers different sizes , I would say a lower deeper bass which is good for drums , soundstage will be larger and a full frequency speaker Depends on which floor standing speakers you choose really . Some have more drivers then others .

I used to have Dali zen 3s which were stand mounted speakers they were good for there size but I feel when you hear mounted speakers they sound like boxes you do not get that with floor standing speakers just a nice full sounding speaker .

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

If going £ for £ a stand mount speaker will generally offer up more detail and certain subtlties but this will diminish the further up the price ladder you go.In my room i can't have floorstanders(I've tried)they just have to much presence and boom as i need them pretty close to a wall(typical british upper flat)but don't discount the humble standmount speaker some can really fill a room and bang out the bass.

 

[lindsayt]

There's a lot of sense in what Blacksabbath25 says.

I'd also go along with Mark Rose-Smith's comments - in the context of going to a dealers and buying brand new.

I'd add that what a full sized, well designed and engineered floorstander gives you is in-room authority. The ability to give instruments a solid in room presence.

So far I have not come across a single stand mount speaker that has been truly purist in terms of the designer prioritising sound quality over all other considerations. They have all prioritised size and manufacturing and transportation costs over sound quality. Most floorstanders share the same compromises. There are some floorstanders where sound quality was the highest priority of the design. These purist designs do offer something in sound quality that more compromised designs can't match.

And then there's the bass. If you want to recreate bass drums, kettle drums, bass guitars, double bass's, organs, tubas, bass synths with a relatively good amount of fidelity, you need speakers with bass extension, bass dynamics, bass clarity, lack of bass bloom. The speakers that I've heard so far that have been best at that have had a large to a huge amount of bass cone area. So large that making them floorstanders was the logical design choice.

With purist floorstanders I've found that the midrange has been of a higher standard than the stand-mounts I've compared them against. It's as if the purist floorstander designers have started with the best midrange drivers available and then thought "What can we do to make sure the bass doesn't let this speaker down too much?"

 

[Al ears]

After a good many years listening to all forms of speakers in a wide range of room sizes from large Victorian drawing room that could easily take the likes of the Heybrook HB3s to smaller council house bedrooms which couldn't I would say it's far to easy to generalise about speaker types and room size.

I am currently set-up in a modern house bedroom of a relatively modest size and here I have found the best speakers I have had so far that fit in very nicely are my Acoustic Zen Adagios ( twin bass-midband drivers and a ribbon tweeter) floorstanders. The Sonus Faber Venere S would probably be similar. The only way you are going to get similar response from a standmount is to spend a lot of money. Something along the lines of the Wilson Audio Duette that have been specifically designed to work in smallish rooms close to a rear wall but having the physical driver size to accomplish this.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There's a lot of variables here, but floorstanders tend to be able to more effortlessly fill a larger room with regards to bass - small standmount can struggle or sound a 'lost'. The flip side to that is that you may hear more detail across the frequency range because the bass isn't as prominent. Midrange should sound fuller on a floorstanders, and again, more effortless.

Standmounts can also fill a large room very well, but can depend on the acoustics - if it's a relatively bare room, reflected sound will help fill the room, rather than a dampened room absorbing it.

As I say, there are many variables, and one of the most important ones is how far away from the speaker you are.

 

[drummerman]

To move a lot of air you need cone area.

Devialet may disagree.

 

[Artoo]

Thanks for great insights. I guess drummerman sums it up pretty well. I see there are many variables to this, but I reckon appropriate handling of bass for your room might be a primary issue when finding the right speaker.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I can not comment on every stand mount speaker but when I went to richer sounds at the time I was using stand mount speakers i owned Dali Zensor 3s .

to see if I could improve on the Zensor 3s i had a demo I tried speakers up to Roksan Tr5-S2 which cost £1050 , Tannoy Revolution XT 6 £599.95 , Monitor Audio Silver 1 £499 all sounded like boxes to me .

the dealer never told me the price of any of them and at the end of the demo he asked me what I thought I said they all sounded like boxes to me and they all lacked that punch I was after and sounded very boring .

i ended up buying Dali opticon 6s because they offered me what I was after at the time were stand mount speakers they never came close to what I wanted but not sure if that changes when you start spending £2000 or more ?

I would say some floor standing speakers behave better then others in the bass department but depending on what you buy but I do not get any boom from my Dali opticon 8s they are well behaved for tower floor standing speakers which use large bass drivers .

a plus with floor standing speakers is you do not need to crank up the volume that much to hear everything even at low volumes you do not need a subwoofer .

if you listen to classic rock , metal then I feel that floor standing speakers do justice to this type of music depending on room size

But I reckon if you listen to classic music the stand mounts would be just right in my opinion depending on room size

 

[nick8858]

I have a pair of Neat Iota's, some of the smallest on the market and they fill my high celing Vistorian 13 x 13 lounge with sound in a manner no other speakers have ever done. Small is beatiful!

 

[gasolin]

Size matters (bass)

Have Q Acoustics 3020 (just collecting dust until someone buys them) and i use as you can se in my signature Mission LX-2, reason, i wanted more bass

The mission's are alot bigger and they have more bass than the 3020's "size matters"(for better balance)

In a small space,room with your computer, floorstand speaker almost never gonna sound at there best,often to much bass and more difficult to place them compared to where you sit (have seen alot of youtube videos where floorstand speaker are placed behinde the desk (almost like rear surround speakers) instead of infront of you on each side of the monitors or behind the computer,desk), that's where small speakers are the best, in small rooms, where they can sound better than floorstand speakers

To me most bookshelf speaker are loud enough, it's just if you have a big room you need big speaker to get the bass to fill the room,personally i don't need a very deep bass, as long as i can hear it,it's loud enough and sounds good, not just boomy,oomph oomph

Bass to me makes the biggest difference between booskshelf and floorstand speakers, not so much the max spl since many good booskshelf speaker can handle above 50 watt, which is loud and many (dynaudio) can handle above 100 watt

If you want mid sized bookshelf speaker with good bass try Dynaudio Emit M10/20 they have alot of bass

 

[Gazzip]

There's a lot of sense in what Blacksabbath25 says.

I'd also go along with Mark Rose-Smith's comments - in the context of going to a dealers and buying brand new.

I'd add that what a full sized, well designed and engineered floorstander gives you is in-room authority. The ability to give instruments a solid in room presence.

So far I have not come across a single stand mount speaker that has been truly purist in terms of the designer prioritising sound quality over all other considerations. They have all prioritised size and manufacturing and transportation costs over sound quality. Most floorstanders share the same compromises. There are some floorstanders where sound quality was the highest priority of the design. These purist designs do offer something in sound quality that more compromised designs can't match.

And then there's the bass. If you want to recreate bass drums, kettle drums, bass guitars, double bass's, organs, tubas, bass synths with a relatively good amount of fidelity, you need speakers with bass extension, bass dynamics, bass clarity, lack of bass bloom. The speakers that I've heard so far that have been best at that have had a large to a huge amount of bass cone area. So large that making them floorstanders was the logical design choice.

With purist floorstanders I've found that the midrange has been of a higher standard than the stand-mounts I've compared them against. It's as if the purist floorstander designers have started with the best midrange drivers available and then thought "What can we do to make sure the bass doesn't let this speaker down too much?"

I think you need to qualify what you class as a "standmount". PMC's IB2, MB2 and BB5 are all standmount monitors which can reproduce a full range comensurate with the best floor standers I have ever heard. Actually better than most I have heard. As a matter of fact the three speakers I mention above are actually better at producing a flat, full range response than any of PMC's own floorstanders. Go figure that!

I know you are not a big fan of PMC but their standmount monitors are used in studios all over the world for a good reason.

 

[paulkebab]

But putting it VERY simply, PMC have cleverly redesigned a floorstanding box into a wider deeper box on a stand. By doing this they also increased the effective transmission line volume which obviously brought superb audio qualities. All credit to them for that and the fact that a transmission line design is a very hard act to follow..IMO.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

your PMCs are £14.000 brand new and plus that fact they are large speakers for stand mounts and with the stands you might as well be floor standing speakers the size of them .

my humble floorstanding speakers cost me £2000 new they are big but not as big as yours so i was kind of getting at stand mounts that cost anything from £300- £2000 as a guide .

 

[lindsayt]

Gazzip, check out the Stereophile measurements for the PMC IB-1S. PMC specified a frequency range of 25hz to 25 khz for these speakers with 10" bass drivers. Stereophile measured them as -25 dbs at 25 hz!

A frequency response of -0 to -3 dbs at 20 hz would put them in the same category as the best floorstanders I've auditioned extensively.

The faux transmission lines in PMC's are a great big bloomy compromise when it comes to bass quality.

The major reason for PMC being used in plenty of studios will be down to good marketing by PMC, backed up by them not being too tragically bad when it comes to sound quality.

 

[gasolin]

Gazzip, check out the Stereophile measurements for the PMC IB-1S. PMC specified a frequency range of 25hz to 25 khz for these speakers with 10" bass drivers. Stereophile measured them as -25 dbs at 25 hz!

A frequency response of -0 to -3 dbs at 20 hz would put them in the same category as the best floorstanders I've auditioned extensively.

The faux transmission lines in PMC's are a great big bloomy compromise when it comes to bass quality.

The major reason for PMC being used in plenty of studios will be down to good marketing by PMC, backed up by them not being too tragically bad when it comes to sound quality.

already 5db down at 35hz

 

[Muddywaterstones]

Getting back to the question of how to fill a room with sound, I hate to get too technical (and there isn't much fear of that) but go to your amp and keep turning the volume dial clockwise. Pretty soon the room will be full of sound. Whether that sound is any good is another question.

 

[Gazzip]

Gazzip, check out the Stereophile measurements for the PMC IB-1S. PMC specified a frequency range of 25hz to 25 khz for these speakers with 10" bass drivers. Stereophile measured them as -25 dbs at 25 hz!

A frequency response of -0 to -3 dbs at 20 hz would put them in the same category as the best floorstanders I've auditioned extensively.

The faux transmission lines in PMC's are a great big bloomy compromise when it comes to bass quality.

The major reason for PMC being used in plenty of studios will be down to good marketing by PMC, backed up by them not being too tragically bad when it comes to sound quality.

Firstly I intentionally did not mention that (discontinued) model because they are NOT a full blown studio monitor. IB2 and upwards are. Secondly if they were measured -25db at 25Hz then I would question the test conditions or whether the PMC's were actually functioning, as would any studio that bought them within 5 minutes of being in the mix.

EDIT: I have measured my MB2SE's at +2db at 20Hz, albeit in a domestic listening room, as posted in the room treatment thread...

 

[drummerman]

Size matters (bass)

Have Q Acoustics 3020 (just collecting dust until someone buys them) and i use as you can se in my signature Mission LX-2, reason, i wanted more bass

The mission's are alot bigger and they have more bass than the 3020's "size matters"(for better balance)

In a small space,room with your computer, floorstand speaker almost never gonna sound at there best,often to much bass and more difficult to place them compared to where you sit (have seen alot of youtube videos where floorstand speaker are placed behinde the desk (almost like rear surround speakers) instead of infront of you on each side of the monitors or behind the computer,desk), that's where small speakers are the best, in small rooms, where they can sound better than floorstand speakers

To me most bookshelf speaker are loud enough, it's just if you have a big room you need big speaker to get the bass to fill the room,personally i don't need a very deep bass, as long as i can hear it,it's loud enough and sounds good, not just boomy,oomph oomph

Bass to me makes the biggest difference between booskshelf and floorstand speakers, not so much the max spl since many good booskshelf speaker can handle above 50 watt, which is loud and many (dynaudio) can handle above 100 watt 

If you want mid sized bookshelf speaker with good bass try Dynaudio Emit M10/20 they have alot of bass

Although bigger, your LX2's still only have a cone area only slightly bigger than the 3020.

They will have slightly more bass but in reality bottom out almost at the same frequency usual for most small speakers. Mission also have that traditional upper bass lift to give the impression of more bass. Perhaps the QAcoustic guys chose to not do that. Both speakers will have similar loudness limitations.

Neither would be a good choice for larger rooms and/or high volume.

At 50 watts your Mission's and the 3020's light and small bass/mid drivers will do the fandango and double into a high distortion frenzy made obvious by softening of bass.

High power/volume requires serious drivers both in size and construction and a larger cabinet.

To make such a speaker costs money.

The Dynaudio is probably a good suggestion as they usually use slightly larger drivers in still small cabinets. They are also better constructed and the polyprop cones and larger coils and magnets will handle a little more volume. The pay off is usually lower sensitivity and more power required. They will probably also not sound their best at low volume.

 

[gasolin]

Size matters (bass)

Have Q Acoustics 3020 (just collecting dust until someone buys them) and i use as you can se in my signature Mission LX-2, reason, i wanted more bass

The mission's are alot bigger and they have more bass than the 3020's "size matters"(for better balance)

In a small space,room with your computer, floorstand speaker almost never gonna sound at there best,often to much bass and more difficult to place them compared to where you sit (have seen alot of youtube videos where floorstand speaker are placed behinde the desk (almost like rear surround speakers) instead of infront of you on each side of the monitors or behind the computer,desk), that's where small speakers are the best, in small rooms, where they can sound better than floorstand speakers

To me most bookshelf speaker are loud enough, it's just if you have a big room you need big speaker to get the bass to fill the room,personally i don't need a very deep bass, as long as i can hear it,it's loud enough and sounds good, not just boomy,oomph oomph

Bass to me makes the biggest difference between booskshelf and floorstand speakers, not so much the max spl since many good booskshelf speaker can handle above 50 watt, which is loud and many (dynaudio) can handle above 100 watt

If you want mid sized bookshelf speaker with good bass try Dynaudio Emit M10/20 they have alot of bass

Although bigger, your LX2's still only have a cone area only slightly bigger than the 3020.

They will have slightly more bass but in reality bottom out almost at the same frequency usual for most small speakers. Mission also have that traditional upper bass lift to give the impression of more bass. Perhaps the QAcoustic guys chose to not do that. Both speakers will have similar loudness limitations.

Neither would be a good choice for larger rooms and/or high volume.

At 50 watts your Mission's and the 3020's light and small bass/mid drivers will do the fandango and double into a high distortion frenzy made obvious by softening of bass.

High power/volume requires serious drivers both in size and construction and a larger cabinet.

To make such a speaker costs money.

The Dynaudio is probably a good suggestion as they usually use slightly larger drivers in still small cabinets. They are also better constructed and the polyprop cones and larger coils and magnets will handle a little more volume. The pay off is usually lower sensitivity and more power required. They will probably also not sound their best at low volume.

I feel the difference in bass are big between Mission LX-2 and Q Acoustics 3020

The 3020 are flat and the mission don't feel as flat, tried my 2010i's with a simple youtube test and the peak at 80-90hz and the bass sound somehow bigger than the 3020, between these 2 speakers (Mission LX-2 and Q Acoustics 3020) the size difference of the cabinet do make a noticeable difference to the bass

50 watt is not impossible from small speakers, with my 2010i i maxed out my 30watt (amp rated at 30 watt peak at 6ohm) and i got distortion because of the amp

Dynaudio emit is really a bass monster compared to most mid sized bookshelf speakers, probably the best choice if your budget is low but want bass from a medium sized bookshelf speaker, if your room is big most people would prefer floorstand speakers like the Monitor Audio Bronze 6 or mabye a pair of Klipsch Premiere RP-250F if you want bass,that doesn't mean a small speaker can't fill a room with loud musics that sounds good, one of them being Dynaudio emit m10 or m20

Ever heard of of Velodyne Micro Vee 6.5? 2 passive and 1 active 6.5" woofer with 1000watt

Not shure how max spl is and when you measure the frequency responce how it is, but i guess it's pretty bad ass despite it's small size http://www.trustedreviews.com/Velodyne-MicroVee-Subwoofer-review

 

[Gaz37]

Do you guys all live in barns or converted cathederals? lol

My modest system with its' paltry 30wpc and standmount speakers is, at anything over quarter on the volume control, capable of filling the room it's in, the two adjacent rooms, the room upstairs and my neighbours room (oops) with sound.

 

[drummerman]

@ gasolin

Not disagreeing. I still have an old pair of M71i's, not used at present and modified by my good self many a Moon ago.

They have a lot of perceived bass. Unfortunately, for me, much of it is due to the port and thus induces time smear and distortion to which my ageing ears are sensitive. The cabinet also joins in at 'high' volume which luckily I don't do often.

The way I got around it was to add extra internal bracing, new thicker wiring, adding damping material to the baffle and finally and most importantly use hollow bungs which severely restrict air flow.

Many, I would guess, would prefer the warm balance of the original but once I heard the problems which are typical of small, cheap speakers I couldn't have continued using it.

May I add, they sounded fantastic the last time I used them with my Sony STR DB930.

I am sure your LX2 are in a very similar mould. Enjoy

 

[jonathanRD]

So for years in my dining room @ 4m x 3.5m - my Mission 780 bookshelf speakers on solid stands driven by a 38w Rega Brio amp filled that room nicely. Speakers positioned relatively closely to the wall with the room full of furniture, chimney breast and a table & chairs in the middle of the room, it never crossed my mind that I wanted more (room filling sound).

I moved that same system into a new room @ 5m long by 4m wide. Speakers in lots of space, further apart, further from my listening position, very little furniture. The speakers sounded 'lost' as if they were overwhelmed by the dimensions of the room.

Replacing the Missions with floorstanders (Rega RS5's) started to redress the issue, but it wasn't until I beefed up the amplification that I got what I would describe as a room filling sound again.

 

[Gazzip]

I am surprised that a room's response has not been mentioned in this thread yet. Filling a room with sound is easy, but filling it well across all of the frequencies that a given loudspeaker is capable of producing is the trickier part.

Unless you are very, very lucky with your room and you speakers compatibility then you are going to need acoustic treatments or some kind of electronic equalisation to flatten out that response. Having recently invested in digital sound processing for my system I would absolutely recommend that this is where you are going to get your most bang for buck if you want to "fill your room" properly without turning it in to something resembling a studio.

 

[gasolin]

@ gasolin

Not disagreeing. I still have an old pair of M71i's, not used at present and modified by my good self many a Moon ago.

They have a lot of perceived bass. Unfortunately, for me, much of it is due to the port and thus induces time smear and distortion to which my ageing ears are sensitive. The cabinet also joins in at 'high' volume which luckily I don't do often.

The way I got around it was to add extra internal bracing, new thicker wiring, adding damping material to the baffle and finally and most importantly use hollow bungs which severely restrict air flow.

Many, I would guess, would prefer the warm balance of the original but once I heard the problems which are typical of small, cheap speakers I couldn't have continued using it.

May I add, they sounded fantastic the last time I used them with my Sony STR DB930.

I am sure your LX2 are in a very similar mould. Enjoy

Like the Q Acoustics 2020 when you hear the concept 20?