Evaluating speakers - what to listen for

[davedotco]

Try and listen to the music, not the sound it makes.

As I said earlier, this is really about the character and attitudes of the listener, i.e. where the listener sits on a spectrum between analytical and holistic. Most of the time most of us surely sit in a band towards the middle of the spectrum.

I suspect that in fact your exhortation to 'listen to the music' may not fully reflect your actual practice. You would no doubt dislike a speaker that delivered smeared or overcooked bass or one that had a smile-shaped frequency response. And I suspect that part of you would be -- analytically -- listening out for such features, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Listening requires attending, and attention, as we've known since Wundt and Fechner started experimenting on it in the 1860s, is selective and time-limited. What actually happens when we listen is that we're constantly 'refreshing' our attention to selected aspects of the sound.

In any case, the quality of musical reproduction is a function of the sound the speaker makes. It can't conceivably be otherwise.

In other words, I find the whole 'just listen to the music' thing both (a) rather trite and (b) a tad disingenuous.

Interesting comments matt, but conciously at least I try not to listen to the hi-fi. This does not stop me running a mile at the smallest hint of bass boom but the primary interest is how the musical performance is portrayed.

I mentioned some jazz recordings earlier, listening to different 'takes' helps concentrate the mind on the music, in general I find this is what tells me the most about what I am listening to.

That said, listening in a dem situation is quite forced, living with a component or a system is the real test, many years ago I upgraded my amplifier, spent the first few weeks telling everyone how great it was, but within a couple of months I was hardly listening to music at all. Fortunately I had a great dealer (later business partner) and he worked out what was going on pretty quickly.

 

[Vladimir]

@Dave

Did you notice on Attaining - Take 1, Alternate Version how the guys couldn't follow Trane's flow and energy compared to Take 3 - The Complete Version?

Elvin Jones produces heavy bombardment on the drums only because that is the only way to follow John. One moment of relaxed hesitation and he blasts forward leaving everyone behind.

Sorry for the offtopic gents. Carry on.

 

[davedotco]

@Dave

Did you notice on Attaining - Take 1, Alternate Version how the guys couldn't follow Trane's flow and energy compared to Take 3 - The Complete Version?

Elvin Jones produces heavy bombardment on the drums only because that is the only way to follow John.

I have been listening mainly to Ascent, but I'll get there. Listening to how the 'sidemen' react to great improvisors such as Coltrane, Ornette Coleman and from another world, Jerry Garcia is hugely entertaining. Seeking out different versions of the same 'track' is a delight, both in terms of where the soloist takes it, but also the ability of the 'sidemen' to keep up.

Another thing I really enjoy listening to is the effect a real live audience has on some players. I was never a big fan of Brubeck's 'Take Five', I allways felt the original (studio recording) a bit flat, but the live recording, on the Legacy Edition as a bonus track track has far more life and is far more entertaining.

 

[matt49]

That said, listening in a dem situation is quite forced, living with a component or a system is the real test, many years ago I upgraded my amplifier, spent the first few weeks telling everyone how great it was, but within a couple of months I was hardly listening to music at all. Fortunately I had a great dealer (later business partner) and he worked out what was going on pretty quickly.

Yes, you can't beat spending time with a system. And for all the analytical effort in the world, there'll be aspects of a system's presentation that you won't notice at first and will only become apparent to you after extended exposure.

That said, I do still think there are ways of partially insuring yourself against disappointment further down the road. One thing is not to let yourself be overly impressed with any aspect of the presentation, and that's where the analytical discipline comes in.

I must stop before I contradict myself any more. I'm currently indexing a book, and it's making it very hard to think straight. :wall:

 

[davedotco]

That said, listening in a dem situation is quite forced, living with a component or a system is the real test, many years ago I upgraded my amplifier, spent the first few weeks telling everyone how great it was, but within a couple of months I was hardly listening to music at all. Fortunately I had a great dealer (later business partner) and he worked out what was going on pretty quickly.

Yes, you can't beat spending time with a system. And for all the analytical effort in the world, there'll be aspects of a system's presentation that you won't notice at first and will only become apparent to you after extended exposure.

That said, I do still think there are ways of partially insuring yourself against disappointment further down the road. One thing is not to let yourself be overly impressed with any aspect of the presentation, and that's where the analytical discipline comes in.

I must stop before I contradict myself any more. I'm currently indexing a book, and it's making it very hard to think straight. :wall:

The problem for the ordinary 'punter', of which I am now one, is that he does not get to live with a system for any time unless he decides to buy it.

What we are looking for is some sort of methodology, trick if you like, that can separate the equipment that we are really going to like from the rest. Some things are easy, how you, as a listener, balance bass weight, tightness, clarity etc is easy enough but some aspects are more difficult, trying to gauge the long term effectiveness of the set-up for example.

The big problem remains that of effective demonstrations, probably not that difficult at the higher end but increadibly difficult at the budget end of the spectrum. I was appalled by what I heard and experienced last time I tried this, I was looking to spend about £2k on (digital) amp and speakers, not a lot of money bet hardly peanuts.

The results were pretty dispiriting, clueless staff, awful set up and a sound quality that was not worth a fraction of the price being asked. I am quite sure there are some very good dealers about but I had no real luck finding one.

 

[peterpiper]

A balanced sound across the frequencies, good cross over points and timing between drivers.

A tight bass with no smear, gives the impression of clarity and timing, I would scarifies deep bass for tight bass every time and, I’ll never forget one of my first auditions when I was 13 listening o Acoustic energy AE109 playing Ocean Colour Scene, opening with the Riverboat Song and that bass guitar still hasn’t left me. They were the most refined in the treble but boy they did it for me with that fast upper bass.

I think this is were the AE109 are particulary good, that fast punchy upper bass, makes drums convincing , they have other qaulities too I like such as an unfatiging , yet crisp treble, They were classed as a budget range in the early to mid ninties,

I think the design philosophy of these at the time was to get the cabinets right first, very solid and very heavy, the drivers are nothing special, just a bog standard fabric dome tweeter and resin treated woofers, a bit like the QA concept range in that respect, ...get the cabinets right and work from there, the original WHF review of these stated 'they put the musical performance first'

I am never getting rid of mine

 

[simon59]

So having distilled the various comments, keeping it to one page...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21968831/speaker_evaluation.pdf

Hope it is useful...

 

[BigH]

Biggest problems with speakers for me is bass (handling and how much) and high notes like drum cymbals. I find Jazz trio pretty good test with piano, double bassa nd drums. Some speaker tweeters are too forward they get on my nerves on jazz. But really you should hear the music not the hifi. They are various other factors like soundstage, how solid are the vocals, separation and do the speakers disappear?

 

[nopiano]

So having distilled the various comments, keeping it to one page...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21968831/speaker_evaluation.pdf

Hope it is useful...

Good summary, and something which we need in a wiki here.

 

[Native_bon]

Musicality, musicality, musicality. Like someone mentioned Jazz trio...1, get to hear interaction between the musicians. 2, How does it handle fast & deep rhythmic bass without notes tripping over each other. 3, Richness in the treble department. Give me a funky play..? :rockout:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

An audition....prrrft!

its a pointless excercise and will not give you a true indication of how the speakers will sound in your home. chances are the dealer will just turn up the test amp to impress you.

pick a solid speaker (a rap with your knucles will tell you if its made of thick wood or MDF) that sits heavy on its stands, refer to reviews - real ones by owners

this will ensure the speaker will be neutral and won't ruin your listening pleasure by colouring your music with boomy bass coming from resonating boxes. Do check the specs against the specs of your amp or future upgrades - don't be tempted to buy a 200watt into 6ohms 84db sensitivity speaker for a 40wpc amp into 8ohms.

And buy something you can live with and will give you has much pleasure to look at in your room as to listen to.

 

[simon59]

Depends on your dealer. My local one had discussed my shortlist with me. We added one and took away another. On the day he set up option 1, He then disappeared for 20 minutes, before setting up the second... etc. So after 2 hours I was happy with the relative merits of each. I appreciate that my own room will imprint its own sound, but a few weeks on I am very happy with my choice.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

MA Silver 8's - pretty solid speakers and will pass the knuckle test no problem, good looking too - a quality product, the audition would have been more for piece of mind, I bet you could have bought those with confidence......

How many reviews did you go through on them?

 

[Infiniteloop]

You should be listen to music while evaluating speakers

Why not test signals? :bounce:

Sure. If Test signals move your soul....

 

[BigH]

An audition....prrrft!

its a pointless excercise and will not give you a true indication of how the speakers will sound in your home. chances are the dealer will just turn up the test amp to impress you.

I don't agree entirely with that. Most dealers just left me to set the volume, no point in listening at different volumes than you usually use.

Yes rooms are different and can be a problem with some speakers.

 

[davedotco]

Musicality, musicality, musicality. Like someone mentioned Jazz trio...1, get to hear interaction between the musicians. 2, How does it handle fast & deep rhythmic bass without notes tripping over each other. 3, Richness in the treble department. Give me a funky play..? :rockout:

Have to agree with this, listen to how the music appears to be being played is the key.

This will not vary from room to room, only from speaker to speaker or system to system. One trick that I use is to get the salesperson to play me something he likes, preferably something that I have not heard.

I try and see why he likes it, why it is a good dem piece, in short I try and gauge how much it engages me, if it doesn't.......... :?

 

[matt49]

An audition....prrrft!

its a pointless excercise and will not give you a true indication of how the speakers will sound in your home. chances are the dealer will just turn up the test amp to impress you.

I don't agree entirely with that. Most dealers just left me to set the volume, no point in listening at different volumes than you usually use.

Yes rooms are different and can be a problem with some speakers.

I agree with BigH. I've found most dealers very relaxed and accommodating. Some hang about and do the foot-tapping thing, but once you're aware of it, it's easy to block out. Some will try to make you listen to their music, as well as your own. I've never come across a dealer who's insisted on controlling the volume -- a bizarre idea! If that happens to you, it's your fault for not expressing your requirements clearly enough.

Obviously the room acoustics vary. But the main point of a dealer demo is to whittle down to a shortlist which you can then try out at home -- assuming you can manage the logistics -- obviously not everyone can.

It's in the nature of these things that the treatment you get will depend to some extent on how much money you're spending. Some high street dealers (e.g. Superfi) don't do home demos, because they're at the budget end of the market. On the other hand, I've had a dealer drive 60 miles to my place, spend an hour setting the kit up in my room, and leave the stuff with me for a week. (I didn't buy the speakers.)

I think Simon's checklist is excellent, and if there were room here for "stickies", it would deserve to be one.

Matt

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I'm not bad mouthing dealers.....

when I have auditioned stuff the dealers always cranked up the amp - example couple of years ago I was looking to upgrade my amp, budget about £750ish. it could depend on look or age I suppose.

Listened to the Audiolab 8200, Roksan K2, Rotel ra-1520, Cyrus 8 (above budget) also the Marantz pearl lite - thing with these amps is they are poorly attinuated and more or less reach max output around the 9 o'clock mark on the volume dial. at each audition the amps were turned up to about 1 o'clock on the volume dial - they all sounded impressive, loud.

Taking home the Audiolab & Rotel each had a different sound on my speakers in my home when compared to my old amp - now the audition room was bigger than mine with most likely a different accoustic signiture & I doubt my amp would sound any where near as impressive as these newer amps in that room ( it being an old Yamaha dsp ax-620) especially the low end performance - upper bass sounding more impressive when music is loud, than the lower register which to some degree will become inaudable.

which is were the Yamaha out performed these newer amps with my speakers.

its when played at reasonable levels or just before the amp loses control of speakers you can tell its quality - best to hear all kit in your home I say. dealers will leave you alone, but I doubt in the time you have weather or not you can 'hear' the real qualitys of an amp or speakers

my suggestion is if you are serious about buying kit - lay down some money/deposit and go through the equ (ex demo) in your home. Superfi will allow home demos if you put down a deposit and will allow you to swap until you are happy - good dealer.

Honestly matt49 I can't believe you wasted your dealers time like that.....lol..... I bet he called you every name under the sun when you did not buy.

but auditioning on their premises in a 2hr window, waste of time.

 

[matt49]

I'm not bad mouthing dealers.....

when I have auditioned stuff the dealers always cranked up the amp - example couple of years ago I was looking to upgrade my amp, budget about £750ish. it could depend on look or age I suppose.

Why did you let them? Why didn't you politely ask to control the volume yourself? Did you forget to? Were you too shy?

Honestly matt49 I can't believe you wasted your dealers time like that.....lol..... I bet he called you every name under the sun when you did not buy.

Dealers do this all the time. It's how they sell stuff. Not every demo results in a sale. In this case the speakers cost £11K, so the dealer was set to make a truck load of lolly if I bought the speakers, and he obviously thought it was worthwhile.

but auditioning on their premises in a 2hr window, waste of time.

On the contrary, I've found this a very good way to exclude stuff I didn't like.

Matt

 

[VOE]

What to listen for?

This is my own test: Close your eyes and listen to the music. Are you able to temporarily suspend your disbelief to lose yourself in the moment and actually believe that the music is being performed live in front of you? If yes, you have a great setup. If no, ask yourself what specifically prevents you from experiencing this. More power needed? More bass and weight? Finer, more transparent mid-range? Thus, you can then identify the characteristics needed in another speaker to achieve the ultimate goal.

 

[simon59]

I only had one session. I had a max budget of about £1000 and started with the KEF LS50. I forget which were the other two pair - I think B&W and KEF R300. I used about 6 CD tracks on each pair. The MA8s definitely had the smile factor and a few months on still do. I loved my old Spendors but the MA8s revealed a lot more while still being totally musical.