Dolby atmos upfiring speakers help needed

[ellisdj]

It's interesting how a person with no proper Atmos experience argues with 2 people who have watched many Atmos movies in their own house and love it, on the basis of one podcast by a rival company.

I have had a fair bit of experience with atmos systema actually as I said about 10 + demos heard the rain about 5 times mad max unbroken a few times transformers and upmixed the hobbit and others on several mk sysyems inc 2 mp300 based systens a xtz system a klispsh system and a Kef install series system.

Don't get me wrong I could hear the benefit and what it's doing.

Then I heard the auro demo disc and was really surprised at it. I would never had thought it had I not sat and watched it. If you have not had the demo I suggest you do.
I would have thought the same as you ceiling speakers follow atmos guidelines
But people with a lot of experience in fact someone who has installed over 1000 home cinemas was suggesting height speakers over ceiling months ago.

After hearing it and thinking about it, hearing atmos and thinking about it some more auro speaker placement makes sense to me and it's pretty obvious why when you actually think about it.

But everyone can do what they want and think what they want but I just know when the time comes if it does where I will start the speaker placement testing in my own system.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

The Flat Earth Society wins....

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Now imagine being in a forest a market a busy high street on a train on a bus in a night club a football stadium a graveyard a party or any where a film is likely to be set.

Notwithstanding my once in a lifetime trip in the front seat of a British Army Air Corps Gazelle helicopter across Sailsbury Plain, more or less mowing the grass as we went, when I was a teenager in the Air Cadets*, I've never actually seen a helicopter, or a 747, a Saturn V rocket, or even the Millenium Falcon for that matter, fly down my high street, through a tube station, or graveyard or any disco I've ever attended.

And two movies where the overhead effects are at their best, say, The Martian blast-off sequence and the helicopter bits of Apocalypse Now, aren't set in any of these places either.

* One of our CIs, an air traffic controller, was a pal of the air traffic controller at the Army Air Corps station at Middle Wallop, and arranged a day out for about twenty of us. The highlight of the day was a flight in an Army helicopter. Some guys got to go in a Lynx, I got the front seat of a Gazelle. We were doing about 100 knots at 100 feet most of the time, but the pilot delighted in proving they fly UNDER electricity cables suspended from pylons by giving us a demonstration. They do that, apparently, to avoid radar, surface to air missiles and ground fire. And also just in case the engine(s) fail, as it better to be under a 400kV cable when that happens than over it...

 

[ellisdj]

Again your proving my point that ceiling speakers are appropriate for isolated scenes.

But factor in

1. Do you think height speakers would be any less effective at reproducing that effect? Debatable I think no.

2. What about everything else what is the better speaker placement for that? I think height speakers but debatable again as everything is.

Out of curiosity did either yiu or BB demo auro and demo atmos played back on auro speaker layout.

If you did fair play your exercised all due diligence and made your choice.

If you didn't then maybe try it and you might see where I am coming from

Also if you watch the auro video I linked to listen to how he describes what object based sound is - zones he calls it. But the way he describes the height channel as adding a layer of resolution to the sound stage that is missing with ceiling speakers.

Very credible person and it's a very credible idea

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Again your proving my point that ceiling speakers are appropriate for isolated scenes.

But factor in

1. Do you think height speakers would be any less effective at reproducing that effect? Debatable I think no.

No.

Overhead speakers coming from overhead reproduce overhead sounds much better than speakers on a wall.

2. What about everything else what is the better speaker placement for that? I think height speakers but debatable again as everything is.

Surround speakers for surround, set per the Atmos or DTS:X or whatever spec., perhaps a little higher or lower than the ideal to suit room practicalities

Out of curiosity did either yiu or BB demo auro and demo atmos played back on auro speaker layout.

My last receiver, an Onkyo TX-NR717, predated Atmos or DTS:X, but would drive up to 7 out of 11 speakers connected at any one time. Quite how that worked I have no idea (because I never had more than seven connected), but my experience using it with my "proper stereo" speakers as fronts and my in-walls as front highs wasn't even whelming, let alone over-whelming.

Atmos demos in my local electronics mega-store weren't available.

So yes and no.

Rather, I looked at new receivers for nearly a year, saw the market trend was split between DTS:X and Atmos, and that unlike buying a Betamax or a VHS, my replacement receiver could do both audio CODECs as well as Auro-3D later if I downloaded the firmware update and if the market swung in favour of this third CODEC (which it hasn't, well, not yet).

Also if you watch the auro video I linked to listen to how he describes what object based sound is - zones he calls it.

Atmos is, supposedly, object-based as well. In fact, I think all the new audio codecs are. That was t"the next big thing" when these competing codecs came out.

But the way he describes the height channel as adding a layer of resolution to the sound stage that is missing with ceiling speakers.

Or put another way, he is trying to explain why (he has been told / paid to say) heights work just as well as overheads because Auro only uses one "voice of God" overhead, and ATMOS has eclipsed that.

Atmos can create a "height" layer just as easily. Think about it. Your "proper stereo" has two speakers, but the singer's voice magically seems to come out of a space somewhere in between them. QED by tracking a sound's volume between speakers at ear level and those overhead, you can make the sound "climb around" a 3D bubble just the same. Different speaker configurations, different mixes, same effect.

BTW www.theflatearthsociety.org is waiting to hear from you

 

[bigboss]

Auro 3D is unlikely to succeed in a big way anyway. Why should I listen to an Atmos track with Auro 3D speaker layout? In Audyssey settings, there is no option for "God speaker" in Atmos layout. Both Dolby and Auro have said the 2 layouts won't be compatible with each other. I knew Atmos will succeed in a big way, and DTS:X will be compatible with Atmos setup. I won't invest in a Betamax just on the basis of better quality than VHS; all my investment would have gone waste. Ceiling speakers are Dolby's gold standard specifications for Atmos, and I'm more than happy with the setup.

Even nugget is enjoying Atmos sound via reflecting speakers; he thinks it's giving him better immersive experience than his surrounds.

 

[f1only]

Even nugget is enjoying Atmos sound via reflecting speakers; he thinks it's giving him better immersive experience than his surrounds.

As am i!

I also hasten to add to this, that because i am not using Atmos certified speakers for those specific duties, i can, when i move, use them for front heights & rear surround if the need arose. Or I could buy extra speakers for a in ceiling setup or whatever is needed to optimize my listening experience.

 

[ellisdj]

Noone is saying you can't enjoy your atmos setup, no need to be so personal about it. We are discussing the merits of the various systems and the setup, take the personal side out of it and just look at the logic.

Atmos speaker layout is not compatible with auro for obvious reasons

Auro speaker layout works well for atmos though and in a small room you don't need the hand of God speaker even Wilfred says that himself.

He does say it gives an extra layer of resolution having it but in small rooms it's not an essential because the ceiling is low which is what it boils down to. Commercial ceilings could be 25-30 feet. Domestic we are talking 8-9 feet big difference.

The difference between ceiling and height speakers with a low ceiling is minimal. However they are at an angle that is more natural for the human hearing as we have ears on the side of our head not the top of it. He explains in that video much better because he explains how they master sound tracks and how they try and pan sound effects and create a sound field

He uses the example at low height we are able to hear a phantom image very easily - a car driving past left to right is easy to master by a change in volume level left to right.

But he says the same thing doesn't happen from floor to ceiling pans or height pans unless you turn your head on its side

By going straight to the ceiling with speakers from a base level it leaves a gap and stops you being able to master in a way to compensate for what i just tried to describe.
Again it's explained in that video fantastically well and makes perfect sense.

So I suggest people demo it and see what they think.
If you think about how much easier it is to install this type of setup than actual ceiling speakers I think it makes it more appealing

 

[Series1boy]

Does anyone know the max measurements from speaker to ceiling to get the best effect for upfiring speakers?

 

[Series1boy]

For atmos and dtsx ceiling speakers will be the ultimate way to go.

However, I do not have the time or patience to drill 4 holes in my ceiling for the speakers, pull the carpet and certain floorboards up in the bedroom above, drill holes through all the joists and then into the chimney breast under the floor boards in the bedroom for the cables, drop the cables down the internal chimney channel, then drill more holes in the chimney breast in the living room to feed the cables to my avr.

Although, in retrospect, this does sound a lot more easier than installing front heights and rears where I will have to channel up all for walls in the plaster to run the cables up and then re-plaster, and then decorate..

BTW our house was built in the 1930s so no false walls, just solid brick all round!

I think I may have to secome to upfiring speakers after all!

 

[ellisdj]

Think about what I just wrote about about how humans hear sounds at height according to Wilfred from auro 3d. Bearing his mind his pedigree with sound producing and mastering and the fact he owns the best studios in Europe and some of the best in the world.

Creating phantom stereo imaging at height doesn't work like it does at normal height. You need actual speakers there.

Then think how do atmos upfiring speakers work they are trying to create a phantom sound image which is difficult enough but they are doing so by trying to reflect sound.

Then think about the sound from all your other speakers. The sound from them is also reflecting off every surface in your room including the ceiling.

Then think about the actual challenge you are creating to try and get an authentic sound experience using this method. Actually stop and think about it. It's got to be the hardest Job any speaker will ever have to do.

Now if you choose this fair play but factoring all that in is it actually worth it and would you be better off thinking long term at more predictable tangible solutions

 

[bigboss]

You are assuming that the ceiling speakers are directly on top of our heads which isn't the case with Atmos. Height speakers will only push sound on the upper plane; ceiling speakers directed downwards are better positioned to reach the listener (mine points towards the sofa). Think about it for a moment.

 

[bigboss]

Atmos isn't mixed with height speakers in mind so you'll not get the full intended effect by using heights in place of downward firing speakers. If you have truly no alternative then use of heights is a compromise and not a like for like alternative.

 

[f1only]

Sorry if you thought i was being personal, but everybody's system is personal to them & the only way to discuss this is from your own personal experiences. So i am not saying you are wrong!! It is just a case of how things work for each & every individual.

As i don't intend putting in ceiling speakers for Atmos duties, due to hopefully moving within the next year or so, I don't want to in effect damage my cinema / living room. I have had a listen to Auro & yes it does sound good, but as my last 2 AV amps do not support it & only do Atmos & DTS-X, I have gone for the best work around for my situation, i am very happy with the resulting sound & effects.

I have read up about Front height speakers & i must admit i was considering this, BUT the way my room is laid out it makes it very difficult to do & they would not work well for me.

 

[ellisdj]

BB it's the age old I want it exactly how the director intended exactly as is on the disc.

Now while that is an admirable goal is also one you will never achieve because your room and setup is completely different to the one it was mastered on. So different it will never be anything like it.

So that goal is worth keeping but folly at the same time.

You don't need all this kit to enjoy a film. You can enjoy a film on a 4" seat screen on a plane on crappy headphones

Why do we pay all this money for its for our systems to give us an experience that is all

So you don't need to follow exact guidelines to create an experience at home in fact it's not the best solution at all because your home room and system dimensions and acoustics are nothing like how they need to be.

So your better off finding a way to create the best overall experience you can - am experience that makes your forget your in your lounge for that 2 hours. That is what immersive audio is supposed to do.

Ask rich at seriously cinema or Rob at gecko cinema about their thoughts on height speakers

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry if you thought i was being personal, but everybody's system is personal to them & the only way to discuss this is from your own personal experiences. So i am not saying you are wrong!! It is just a case of how things work for each & every individual.

As i don't intend putting in ceiling speakers for Atmos duties, due to hopefully moving within the next year or so, I don't want to in effect damage my cinema / living room. I have had a listen to Auro & yes it does sound good, but as my last 2 AV amps do not support it & only do Atmos & DTS-X, I have gone for the best work around for my situation, i am very happy with the resulting sound & effects.

I have read up about Front height speakers & i must admit i was considering this, BUT the way my room is laid out it makes it very difficult to do & they would not work well for me.

It's not about personal experience, I. Meant take the pride and personal must defend my decision or purchase out of the equation and just look at the logic of it that is what I meant.

 

[bigboss]

Ellisdj, I don't really care what Rich or Bob think. The ears not placed on top of our head argument is all non sense. if someone calls you from upstairs (placed directly over you, like in a hot air balloon in the middle of a field), you will look up, not look around. This is what Dolby says in the blog:

http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-atmos-home-theaters-questions-answered/

"In real life, sounds come from all around us, including overhead. Having the ability to recreate overhead sounds is a key element in making Dolby Atmos sound so realistic.

The obvious way to create overhead sounds is to install speakers in or on your ceiling. "

If you decide on Dolby Atmos, then go through the white paper and installation options to decide what works best for you. The gold standard speaker layout is ceiling speakers for Atmos.

 

[ellisdj]

Rob at gecko installs some of the best cinemas in the country. Ignoring that man's advice is ignorance and you are not an ignorant man BB. But you are stubborn.

Had you been to his facility before doing your install you would have done it differently I would bet a lot on that fact because he really knows how to create an experience and hadls done loads of testing with different immersive setups. He knows more than you and me in this regard.

He changed this whole hobby for me in one visit and I Have never bought a thing from him so there is no loyalty there I am just saying it as it is.

We will never agree on this but using height speakers instead of ceiling is No compromise to performance and it can be used to enhance the system performance.

 

[bigboss]

We will agree to disagree on this. There is a reason why ceiling speakers are the ideal placement for Atmos instead of heights, otherwise Dolby would've advised heights instead of ceilings, knowing fully well that heights are easier to install than ceiling speakers in most homes.

Regulars over here know very well that I have spent the best part of 2014 into investigating the various speaker position options and speaking to loads of people before deciding what's best for me. I read the whole Atmos white paper too. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision that you imply.

The greater the height difference between your fronts / surrounds and Atmos speakers, better will be the impact. It is the height gradient that creates the impact.

 

[Series1boy]

Ellisdj: are you saying because nobody agrees with you we are all doing things incorrectly?

My reason for asking is beacuse we all have systems that are unique to us personally and different to others due to room size, budget, family requirements etc. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you have the authority to bang on about how we are all doing it wrong in particularly when you've never had a tv calibrated professionallyor atmos system installed.

just because you've heard an atmos system 10 times in a demo environment, doesn't mean it will be same in our living rooms or dedicated rooms.

i respect everbodys system on this forum whether it's big, small, expensive or budget; we all have the same hobby and to go on an argue is just pissing some of us off and is why I now rarely contribute to this forum.

 

[ellisdj]

To BB do you think atmos was conceived for the home market or the commercial cinema market and then adapted for the home market.

I think the later like all cinema tech is.

In the cinema they already generally use high speakers as surrounds for obvious reasons. So how do you knit a sound stage across a big room and row of seats for many people. They obviously decided more speakers and where can we put them. The ceiling is the only available space. A system was put in place to allow for this and that opened up new options for sound design using it.
This was then adapted for the home market in a simple way where the larger sound tracks can be scaled down to 4 channels
If you know a more logical way to atmos being conceived please let me know. I think decisions like this are more commercial i.e costs for cinemas to implement the tech than pure performance orientated. I also think like most things.

Then the port from cinema to home is a simple one, one that's very easily marketed as the best thing since sliced bread, gets people buying all new kit new and more speakers so it's no wonder it's been popular and a buzz.
Does that mean it's the perfect solution for the home environment, that's another point altogether as I don't believe that was ever the intention but that is how ides last are sold

 

[ellisdj]

Series one. Sorry if you are getting upset in what I am saying. That was not my intention.

I am just saying it how I see it not trying to be personal just talk general about how I see things for this still very new area of home sound.

Mate if you like what you have done or hear that's great and fine and what it's all about.

However I have spent a lot of time listening to other systems something a lot of people don't do. Why because I am looking for the next eureka moment to take my own forward.
I am only interested in achieving the highest performance possible at home and I was expecting atmos to be it and sadly it has not delivered for me so far. I do see the benefits of immersive audio they are big as well, personally I think other areas are far more important to concentrate on first and I have mentioned this before.

However back to point yes I have been to demo these systems in different rooms from small domestic to large that hasn't made any difference either although it was better in a larger room but sound often is because it gets a much larger sound stage naturally.

I often go against the grain on this forum, it's not to upset anyone belittle anyone it can be for different reasons. For this thread it's about making people aware of something that was proved to me by several people. Those people happen to also be responsible for changing this hobby for me forever. I thought I had home cinema cracked and as good as it can be but I wasn't even remotely close and it was a hard learning curve for me. As a result these are people I trust and who really know what they are doing. I am sharing so good will and good advice it's up to whoever reading if they believe me or not.

Factor in it wasn't long ago I was suggesting other things with friction and now lots of people are on board.
We are all in this together if someone can help me moving forward I am listening. Same as if someone wants to demo me their all singing all dancing atmos system I will come and hear it happily.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

It's a lot easier to put speakers around the walls than in a cell ng, especially if that ceiling is either (1) very very high, or (2) some Victorian or art deco work of art covered by a preservation order or (3) like around here just unlined corrugated iron - or the modern equivalent.

Atmos and DTS:X were probably conceived with both the cinema and the home in mind, as the burgeoning home AV market is probably just as important for the movie studios as the cinemas these days.
Face it. Auro-3D has arrived too little too late. It's like if someone had launched a third alternative to VHS and betamax. Or in more recent times HDDVD and Blu-Ray.

 

[ellisdj]

I don't think that's the case auro is bigger in China and Russia than Europe. They have just had 28 million in investment right at the time dts is sold.

There is a place in the market for it with dts x being non existent which shows the true state of things I feel.
But a relative unknown in that market has a hard job.

I hope they do come because I think it's a better solution than atmos and makes more sense. Dts and dts master are arguably better than dolby on dvd and blu ray so history has shown there is room in the market for different solutions.

That whole aspect is beside the point. We are here to learn, learning all the time. A smart man takes the best bits from what he learns and puts them together.

That is what people who sell complete home cinema solutions have done and that is where I have learnt it.
Think how commercially dangerous that is for them to buck a trend like that.
Well it's not really because they can sit you down and prove it with their own demo facilities and there is no better way to prove a point.
It worked on me

 

[ellisdj]

these are a competetively priced alternative solution to the bouncer style speakers available as well. These seem like a really good idea SonofSJ started a dedicated thread on them