Sorry BB rushed post - we have debated this before I am not sold on atmos speaker layout but I do like the auro 3d speaker layout.
If you can't do ceiling then using a height layer is a better option than trying to bounce sound which is essentially creating an echo of the original sound. How can that be deemed a high quality solution to sound generation / playback?
Think about it the sound doesn't only echo off the ceiling it echos off every other surface as well. That completely negates the effect think about it
If you can't do ceiling then using a height layer is a better option than trying to bounce sound which is essentially creating an echo of the original sound. How can that be deemed a high quality solution to sound generation / playback?
Think about it the sound doesn't only echo off the ceiling it echos off every other surface as well. That completely negates the effect think about it
bigboss
Moderator
Have you seen the number of blu ray titles released and upcoming on Auro 3D compared to Atmos?ellisdj said:
Hint: You can count the number of Auro 3D titles decent enough to buy with your fingers.
What's the point of going Auro 3D route when there won't be enough titles to watch?
I setup and calibrated my upfiring speakers and they sound good. At first i was skeptical as i couldnt always hear sounds come from above but for sure i can clearly tell sound coming from above.
Examples being lightning from a scene in BvS (by the way big boss the wonder woman soundtrack did seem a tad quieter on atmos compared to truehd i believe you asked that before?)
Helicopters on sicario
Transformers gravity scene
And the car flip from tmnt
All sounded good so i am happy so far and will most likely keep the speakers.
Just wish there was a scene with a lot of atmos effects over a sustained period of time to see what its capable of fully.
Havent compared upfiring directly to ceiling speakers so dont know how much difference there is.
But for £250 they do a decent job. Not worth an extra £350 for the kefs to match the finish of my speakers.
Examples being lightning from a scene in BvS (by the way big boss the wonder woman soundtrack did seem a tad quieter on atmos compared to truehd i believe you asked that before?)
Helicopters on sicario
Transformers gravity scene
And the car flip from tmnt
All sounded good so i am happy so far and will most likely keep the speakers.
Just wish there was a scene with a lot of atmos effects over a sustained period of time to see what its capable of fully.
Havent compared upfiring directly to ceiling speakers so dont know how much difference there is.
But for £250 they do a decent job. Not worth an extra £350 for the kefs to match the finish of my speakers.
ellisdj said:
That's true, to a greater or lesser extent, with ALL sound sources within a closed-in space. But our brains usually work out where the original cound came from as it tends to arrive ( a) first and (b) clearer.
I have to agree though, the idea of bouncing sound off a celing to simulate overhead speakers isn't my cup-of-tea, and if I lived in, say, a flat where I couldn't put speakers in the celing, I too would go for high-ups-on-the-walls instead. But I'm lucky and have an upstairs, dedicated media room, with only an attic space above, so I actually have SIX in-celing speakers, even though I currently only have four of them connected.
However, the OP seems happy enough with his Atmos-enabled ceiling-bouncers, and that's what counts really, isn't it?
bigboss
Moderator
bigboss said:
I'll have to test again to make sure. But the first time you hear it when seeing the photo its same volume. I believe its quiter during the battle though. If true it sucks as that's the best music of the film and makes that battle amazing.
You don't need speakers pointing to the ceiling or even in the ceiling to get phantom sound from above your head.
It's called phantom sound basically speaker imaging same as stereo imaging. So having speakers at height gets speakers imaging in pairs or 4s or whatever at height. You will also get phantom sounds above that.
BB the auro speaker layout works for atmos so if you can't have ceiling then have height speakers.
I am talking by he difference between having something for the sake of having it or adding something to your system to make an actual tangible and measurable benefit.
It's called phantom sound basically speaker imaging same as stereo imaging. So having speakers at height gets speakers imaging in pairs or 4s or whatever at height. You will also get phantom sounds above that.
BB the auro speaker layout works for atmos so if you can't have ceiling then have height speakers.
I am talking by he difference between having something for the sake of having it or adding something to your system to make an actual tangible and measurable benefit.
bigboss
Moderator
You have dedicated speakers not upfiring modules.
But I would demo tomorrow mate if we lived closer I am sure we would have met by now and done demos of both our systems so we can both show each other what we are on about.
I am not trying to be personal here BB but I honestly don't think reflected sound can ever work because sound doesn't move in straight lines and the whole system of reflective speakers is probably to give lesser systems so extra dimension I just know there are better ways to do it
But I would demo tomorrow mate if we lived closer I am sure we would have met by now and done demos of both our systems so we can both show each other what we are on about.
I am not trying to be personal here BB but I honestly don't think reflected sound can ever work because sound doesn't move in straight lines and the whole system of reflective speakers is probably to give lesser systems so extra dimension I just know there are better ways to do it
bigboss
Moderator
I agree about upfiring modules. You mentioned "ceiling speakers" which are different to upfiring modules.
Ceiling speakers maybe in a huge room such as a cinema to fill in the big void in the speaker arrays
Small domestic sized I am not so sure as that void is small and can be better filled
Apparently auro has had huge investment if you heard the last avf podcast so it could be they make a big inroad into the home market.
Let's hope so
Small domestic sized I am not so sure as that void is small and can be better filled
Apparently auro has had huge investment if you heard the last avf podcast so it could be they make a big inroad into the home market.
Let's hope so
All that matters essentially for atmos is that sound is essentially coming from above you which it does sound like.. it's good enough for me i think! Considering i can't have ceiling speakers it will have to be..
bigboss
Moderator
Depends on the room. All my speakers are in-wall and in-ceiling, and are exactly to Dolby's specifications for Atmos. There is no doubt that Dolby Atmos will remain the most popular format of the three. Maybe DTS:X will have a more significant presenxe in the future, but I haven't seen Auro 3D make any significant impact yet, and they've been around for a while now. The fact that Auro 3D update is an optional paid extra, adoption will remain small (given that it doesn't have a decent catalogue to justify the money demanded). Who knows, things might change in the future.
bigboss
Moderator
ellisdj said:
Most cinemas I've been to haven't yet rolled out Atmos and are using DTS:X because it's far easier to hang six, eight or even two dozen side speakers down the (often quite high anyway) walls than it is to put them in the ceilings. Especially if those ceilings are either very VERY high or, perhaps (but not round here) ornate plaster art deco era ones probably covered by some sort fo listed building preservation order, or (more usual around here) just sheet metal supported by steel trusses.
My HT roon is 19 ft x 12 ft 6 and, in a 7.2.4 setup, I have four working in-ceiling speakers set at 1/4 and 3/4s of the way down the room, front to back. THe MLP is almost exactly half-way down the room, so the speaker placement meets the Atmos guidelines pretty darmed well. TBH it's probably overkill, as I can't really make out the full effect of, I dunno, say the Millenium Falcon hoving into view from far far behind and passing slowly overhead, and I could probably have gotten away with a 7.2.2 setup instead of a 7.2.4, but what the heck?
As for overheads vs ceiling bouncers or high-up-on-the-walls, well, I think we'd all agree that for overhead sound, overhead speakers are probably best, high-up-on-the-walls probably second best and ceiling bouncers (if you get them to work at all) a distant third. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
As for speakers having "Atmos approved" stickers on them or whatever, I bet there's a little factory somewhere in China churning those out and sticking them on anything that passes close enough, slow enough, to have a sticker slapped on it, including local kids, stray dogs and cats, no doubt. It's a bit like when CDs first came out and everything a certain high street catalogue store was selling suddenly had "CD compatible" stickers on - and a ten quid boost in price as well. Same product, but "if you want the CD compatible model, John, it's an extra tenner".
Atmos speakers DON'T have any special qualities, really. As long as they're capable of reproducing sound from 80 Hz up to 16 kHz, which is not exactly an extra-ordinary range for any speaker, the speakers will reproduce whatever signal the AVR throws at them, as instructed by the Blu-Ray disc coding.
By the way, if you google Atmos specifications, you'll get the Atmos cinema spec., which calls for speakers with a frequency range of 40 Hz to 16 kHz, +3 / -6 dB, frequency range 80 Hz to 16 kHz, +3 / -3 dB and an SPL of 105 dB. It then goes on to give recommendations about speaker numbers, placement positions, etc.
Finding similar published specs for home theater uses, I couldn't find, but the Klipsch RP-140SAs work between 80 and 16 KHz, so that's a bit of a clue.
Oh. My Yamaha NS-IW960, IW-660 and IC-800 units are all rated at 50W nominal, 150 watts peak (140 for the ICs), all have frequency responses between 50 and 28 KHZ, so I'm okay. The receiver is set with an LF cutoff of 80Hz with everything below that being thrown at the subs. And AFAIK none of them have Atmos stickers on them so ya boo to anyone who says only speakers with Atmos stickers will work!
f1only
Well-known member
bigboss said:
The crossover is set at whatever the amps given them on the MCACC.
All my speakers are set to small but you can not set the TMdr Atmos speaker size so i am assuming it is a default.
As to the hight i measured them for the amp at around 1.2 meters from the ceiling & after callibration it now tells me they are 3.67 metres from the main listening position given the reflected distance. Which i hasten to add is exactly the same as the Onkyo Atmos reading was, it is telling me they are over a meter further away than the speakers they are stood on so it's definately working.
Regards ..
19 x 12 is the same size room as mine roughly that is a small room
It does lend itself naturally to having 1/4 length spaced ceiling speakers but that is not the only option
Listen to the avf podcast where the owner of auro is talking about domestic speaker layouts and the importance of the screen end. The fact only 5 base layers are needed in a domestic room and the adding 4 height layers is enough in small rooms - but height not ceiling as the 30 degree angle of sound is more natural that sound from above your head which is not
Then think what you have just said about only needing 2 ceiling speakers as 4 are not differentiating themselves then think right have I used my 4 additional speakers to the best benefit of the sound overall of my systems presentation
It does lend itself naturally to having 1/4 length spaced ceiling speakers but that is not the only option
Listen to the avf podcast where the owner of auro is talking about domestic speaker layouts and the importance of the screen end. The fact only 5 base layers are needed in a domestic room and the adding 4 height layers is enough in small rooms - but height not ceiling as the 30 degree angle of sound is more natural that sound from above your head which is not
Then think what you have just said about only needing 2 ceiling speakers as 4 are not differentiating themselves then think right have I used my 4 additional speakers to the best benefit of the sound overall of my systems presentation
bigboss
Moderator
That's interesting! Just wondering if you're getting better performance on account of extra speakers instead of Atmos effect. The lower frequencies cannot bounce off the ceiling, so the extra bass is due to the presence of extra speakers. I suppose the higher frequencies bounce off the ceiling for Atmos effect. Doesn't this result in a muddled up sound coming from the speakers themselves as well as the ceiling? Or do you think it adds to the effect?f1only said:
f1only
Well-known member
Hi BB
I've had a look at the amp & found the settings regarding the crossover frequency & it has set it at 150 so is chucking lots of the bass to the subwoofer, i can change it up to 200 which may make it sound better i suppose. I'm doing a rewire at the weekend so i'll let you know the result. It does defo sounds better though than the onkyo speakers did installed.
I believe they are the same size woofers or near as damn it on the 686's as the Kef Atmos speakers.
Regards ...
I've had a look at the amp & found the settings regarding the crossover frequency & it has set it at 150 so is chucking lots of the bass to the subwoofer, i can change it up to 200 which may make it sound better i suppose. I'm doing a rewire at the weekend so i'll let you know the result. It does defo sounds better though than the onkyo speakers did installed.
I believe they are the same size woofers or near as damn it on the 686's as the Kef Atmos speakers.
Regards ...
bigboss
Moderator
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
f1only
Well-known member
Hi Son-of-SJ
I''m using B&W 686S2's which are not atmos speakers, but they seem to work well as atmos speakers. I have them pointing at exactly the same angle at the ceiling as the Okyo Atmos speakers i had. At the minute i'm experimenting with the Subwoofer cross over to see which gives the best effect & 150 is a bit high as it shoves far to much bass to the sub for my liking & it is not a smooth transition.
I'm doing a re-wire tomorrow adding a 2nd B&W ASW610 sub, & the recently aquired 2nd set of B&W 686S2 speakers & will then do a new full callibration, followed by finishing the setup using an SPL meter to match all levels.
Regards
I''m using B&W 686S2's which are not atmos speakers, but they seem to work well as atmos speakers. I have them pointing at exactly the same angle at the ceiling as the Okyo Atmos speakers i had. At the minute i'm experimenting with the Subwoofer cross over to see which gives the best effect & 150 is a bit high as it shoves far to much bass to the sub for my liking & it is not a smooth transition.
I'm doing a re-wire tomorrow adding a 2nd B&W ASW610 sub, & the recently aquired 2nd set of B&W 686S2 speakers & will then do a new full callibration, followed by finishing the setup using an SPL meter to match all levels.
Regards
ellisdj said:
True, it's not exactly your local Odeon, but it's still on par with a lot of UK 3-bed semi living rooms. Not bad for a room dedicated to just flunking out in front of a movie.
Having eleven channels us probably overkill in moat HT setups unless you've got one of those "iceberg" basements but, since I could do it, why not?
As for putting more around the walls, this wasn't an option for me, and I think having four down each side of the room would have been overkill just as much as having four in the ceiling.
I could, I suppose, cut down to two in the ceiling (I have six installed anyway, but that's another story), use my in wall fronts as highs or sides, and my "proper stereo" speakers as fronts. The Memsahib sure as Sherlock won't let me mount any more in or on the walls though, so I'm stuck with the crummy setup of seven round the walls, two subs and four in the ceiling.
It sucks, don't it?
Why people get so defensive is beyond me it's not a penis measuring contest. I have heard system with loads of speakers and subs and they did not perform anywhere near the standard others have with just 5 speakers and subs so loads of speakers and subs is not an indicator of high performance in fact far from it.
If it's all installed now it's not worth pulling it all out but I have said before that you don't need to use ceiling speakers to add immersive sound to your system. This means more people can have it as they don't need to put holes in the ceiling.
It also definitely not the case that adding ceiling speakers will give you audio nirvana so my point is and has always been think first and test first. Don't just follow the atmos guidelines because there are other options available and in small rooms different things are important.
Some people are using 2 channels as height speakers on their front wall because this adds an extra dimension to the most important end of the cinema. The screen end and this does work I have heard this used a few times.
That was my point you have said 2 ceiling speakers would have been enough.
Do you think you could have used the other 2 better elsewhere like the front wall
If it's all installed now it's not worth pulling it all out but I have said before that you don't need to use ceiling speakers to add immersive sound to your system. This means more people can have it as they don't need to put holes in the ceiling.
It also definitely not the case that adding ceiling speakers will give you audio nirvana so my point is and has always been think first and test first. Don't just follow the atmos guidelines because there are other options available and in small rooms different things are important.
Some people are using 2 channels as height speakers on their front wall because this adds an extra dimension to the most important end of the cinema. The screen end and this does work I have heard this used a few times.
That was my point you have said 2 ceiling speakers would have been enough.
Do you think you could have used the other 2 better elsewhere like the front wall
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