Dolby atmos upfiring speakers help needed

[Benedict_Arnold]

Fitting front highs or wides?Probably not.

The front in walls are set fairly high up in anticipation of having a 4k PJ and 136 inch 21:9 screen (roughly 11 feet by 5 feet overall) probably some time next year. As this will almost reach the ceiling as well as covering virtually the full width of the wall, front highs or wides wouldn't be possible.

The "proper stereo" floor standers are also too low.

I do agree with you that having four in ceilings in my size room probably is overkill, but given the speakers I used, which are more than adequate for surround sound but certainly not audiophile stereo duty, were only US$120 or so a pair, and given I had to put two cables up though the wall, across the top of the ceiling, etc., AND given my receiver can do 7.2.4, why the heck not install all four and be done with it and not regret not doing so later?

What I should have done, with 20/20 hindsight is to not install the first pair (with the wiring pre installed by the builders) half-way down the room.

Those will probably be coming out, as and when I can be bothered to fix the resulting holes in the plasterboard and "popcorn" finish thereon.

Unless, of course, next year's big thing is IN FLOOR speakers....

 

[f1only]

Unless, of course, next year's big thing is IN FLOOR speakers....

You going to be watching a lot of Jaws type of movies then?

 

[ellisdj]

Why did you install the front speakers high up?

Are the tweeters at ear level?

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Why did you install the front speakers high up?

Are the tweeters at ear level?

Because they will be centered (vertically) with the screen.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Unless, of course, next year's big thing is IN FLOOR speakers....

You going to be watching a lot of Jaws type of movies then?

Looking forward to San Andreas II and a remake of Dune...

 

[ellisdj]

Why did you install the front speakers high up?

Are the tweeters at ear level?

Because they will be centered (vertically) with the screen.

I can see the logic however is that set at ear height ? I have never seen anyone advise to have front speakers higher than ear height speakers unless your playing to multple rows of seats maybe and your trying to cover multple ear heights??

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Of the intent is to have a "seamless" surround sound field, then surely more speakers around the room, and more in the ceiling IS the way to go.

Rather than being able to tell when a specific speaker is doing its part, one should be listening for a sound field with no holes in it?

Anyway, I'm happy and that's all that matters to me.

 

[ellisdj]

Yep that is the goal for immersive audio - different ways to do it though.

I have always argued how often do I hear sounds from directly above my head - the answer is very rare.

Dolby use rain as a demo but you dont hear rain falling - you only hear it echo off what it lands on so is ceiling speakers actually more realistic in terms of placement for authenticity?

Or was it the only space usable in a commercial cinema (without huge modification to existing layout) so thats where they were placed? And its then been ported to the home environment.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Yep that is the goal for immersive audio - different ways to do it though.  

I have always argued how often do I hear sounds from directly above my head - the answer is very rare.

Dolby use rain as a demo but you dont hear rain falling - you only hear it echo off what it lands on so is ceiling speakers actually more realistic in terms of placement for authenticity? 

Or was it the only space usable in a commercial cinema (without huge modification to existing layout) so thats where they were placed? And its then been ported to the home environment.

You can hear the rain around here when it's p-p-p-persisting down, believe me.

Not to mention thunder, helicopters, the 747s, the occasional F-16, surprisingly a B-17 Flying Fortress that's has its home around here somewhere, a Mustang too (that guy keeps it in his garage with his own private taxi-way to the local airstrip) and the odd Antonov...

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Why did you install the front speakers high up?

Are the tweeters at ear level?

Because they will be centered (vertically) with the screen.

I can see the logic however is that set at ear height ?  I have never seen anyone advise to have front speakers higher than ear height speakers unless your playing to multple rows of seats maybe and your trying to cover multple ear heights??

Bingo.

There's a 16 in difference between the floor height at the front (9 ft 4) and the back of the room (8 ft).

And I want to be able to see the whole screen if I'm relegated to the back row, not someone else's head. With a 5 foot deep screen, say with the top 6 inches from the ceiling, the bottom of the screen is only 3 ft 10 or so above the floor at the front, 2 ft 6 at the back, barely higher than the back of the couch in front.

 

[ellisdj]

Not to mention thunder, helicopters, the 747s, the occasional F-16, surprisingly a B-17 Flying Fortress that's has its home around here somewhere, a Mustang too (that guy keeps it in his garage with his own private taxi-way to the local airstrip) and the odd Antonov...

Think about it - what is the main "characteristic" of the sounds made by all these things - its the low frequencies they generate not the high freq as much. Big roaring engines etc shake your body or even a bulding - well thats bass freq's so why is bass limited ceiling speakers any use for this? Hence why you can get realitistic overhead sounding effects from a normal 5. whatever setup because its the bass that does the work surprisingly the rest is echo.

The high freq you hear are very rarely direct sounds because you cant get close enough to hear direct sound from such objects like planes etc you actually hear an echo off the floor and what is around you buildings etc. That can be above your head admitedly in a building etc but I think Its not as clear cut as you think.

Thats why I think Auro is better - its more about adding an enhanced ambience layer than pure over head effects - to me thats more useful for a whole film not just the odd set piece.

 

[bigboss]

Think about it - what is the main "characteristic" of the sounds made by all these things - its the low frequencies they generate not the high freq as much.   Big roaring engines etc shake your body or even a bulding - well thats bass freq's so why is bass limited ceiling speakers any use for this?  Hence why you can get realitistic overhead sounding effects from a normal 5. whatever setup because its the bass that does the work surprisingly the rest is echo.

You're getting confused ellisdj. Only reflecting speakers are high frequency ones, not speakers installed in the ceiling. In-ceiling speakers are full range.

 

[ellisdj]

I did get that wrong - are they not crossed over to the subwoofer same as the main channels - I am sure they are otherwise you would need a much bigger speaker to do full range sound.

Been watching this today - really good video

 

[bigboss]

I did get that wrong - are they not crossed over to the subwoofer same as the main channels - I am sure they are otherwise you would need a much bigger speaker to do full range sound.

Been watching this today - really good video

 

 

You can set the crossover of your choice to Atmos speakers. Since bass is non-directional, I don't mind if my subwoofer does the job. I still get the same effect. There was one particular Atmos scene (I can't, for the life of me, remember the scene!) wherein the sound from overhead speakers sent creeps down my neck! Never felt this effect with non Atmos sound.

 

[ellisdj]

There was one particular Atmos scene (I can't, for the life of me, remember the scene!) wherein the sound from overhead speakers sent creeps down my neck! Never felt this effect with non Atmos sound.

We could argue the reasons for that all day dude

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Not to mention thunder, helicopters, the 747s, the occasional F-16, surprisingly a B-17 Flying Fortress that's has its home around here somewhere, a Mustang too (that guy keeps it in his garage with his own private taxi-way to the local airstrip) and the odd Antonov...

Think about it - what is the main "characteristic" of the sounds made by all these things - its the low frequencies they generate not the high freq as much.   Big roaring engines etc shake your body or even a bulding - well thats bass freq's so why is bass limited ceiling speakers any use for this?  Hence why you can get realitistic overhead sounding effects from a normal 5. whatever setup because its the bass that does the work surprisingly the rest is echo.

The high freq you hear are very rarely direct sounds because you cant get close enough to hear direct sound from such objects like planes etc you actually hear an echo off the floor and what is around you buildings etc.  That can be above your head admitedly in a building etc but I think Its not as clear cut as you think.

Thats why I think Auro is better - its more about adding an enhanced ambience layer than pure over head effects - to me thats more useful for a whole film not just the odd set piece.  

 

I live on the extreme outskirts of Houston Texas. The landscape around here makes the Fens look like the Himalayas (sp). And we're only three or four miles from the local airstrips Wieser - tarmac - and Dry Creek - grass). Dry Creek is where the Mustang flies from. I can certainly pinpoint lowish flying aircraft as they fly overhead to and from those runways, Police Helicopters, private helicopters, etc. And if I stand in the park opposite my house there are no buildings to reflect sound, and, AFAIK, turf isnt noted for its sonic reflectivity.

Just go to an airport out in the boonies a bit. Stand near the end of a runway as a fully laden 747 screams overhead.

You sure as Sherlock won't be hearing just reflected sound or just sub 120 Hz sound. And you will hear it overhead (until your eardrums burst anyway).

Of you're happy with 5.1 that's fine, but some of us want more, and if we can do it, why not? You might as well argue all cars only need 3 or 4 cylinder engines and that any engine with more cylinders is a waste of time. Trust me, it's not.

 

[ellisdj]

Your describing isolated incidents there and you are still hearing reflected sound but we will never agree but if you watch the video I linked to there are some very interesting points made for doing it different and how humans hear sound in the vertical plane.

It's nothing to do with being happy or not I have heard atmos a fair bit it's not once made me want it otherwise I would have it trust me.

It's about do I even think it's the best immersive solution based on what I have heard no I am not sure I think it is hence no mad rush to throw money at it right now.

 

[bigboss]

Your describing isolated incidents there and you are still hearing reflected sound

Seriously??!!

 

[ellisdj]

Read what he has wrote - he is 3 - 4 miles from a runway where planes fly over - do you honestly think you are hearing direct sound from above your head in this situation from that distance, unless they fly less than 20 feet from the ground which I find unlikely ?

I happen to live about the same from a small airfield run way and a plane just flew past.

I know its a plane because of the sound and the fact I know its a plane I associate the sound as being in the air - but its actually not the sound is in my horizontal axis and not above me at all - I can tell roughly where it is but I would need to use my eyes to find it in the sky, my ears are not that sensitive to time based positioning at that distance - the sound is def not from directly above my head.

How often have you personally stood on a run way and have a plane fly over your head closely - I have never done that and I cant remember seeing / experiencing this in the last 20odd films I have watched - so that is very much an isolated incident where maybe having ceiling speakers would be a benefit.

Thes rest of the time height speakers can be just as good and more versatile as its more natural for the human hearing to get sounds from the side than directly above your head.

Thats why I think people are asking for the best atmos scenes because their not used to associating sound in this way so its not easy to identify what is what. Maybe we need to recondition ourselves to get the full benefit from it.

I am happy for people to be happy just so far I have had half a dozen demos or more probably now double figures - not once has it really got me I could easily take it or leave and I would rather have an all singing all dancing 5.whatever 2 at least than a mediocre atmos system but that is just me.

I have had 2 demos of Auro the first time it was good, the second time I watched the whole demo disc straight after hearing atmos demos and I got it straight away. The tractor scene on the auro disc is basic as you like but it puts to shame everything on the atmos demo disc for actual immersion and natural presentation.

Now I appreciate there is a lack of content but it doesnt mean they have got it wrong in terms of the thinking behind it - you can imagine how hard it is to penetrate a market with companies like Dolby so entrenched and the buzz surrounding atmos to the point even sound bars are being sold with atmos because I dare say it will help sell them regardless of the benefit which I am sure is there but how much honestly

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Two six month spells living in halls of residence on top Cooper's Hill, Egham. About three miles, as the 747 flies, from the end of Heathrow's runways. The 1 pm Concorde was my alarm clock .
One year working on the top floor (with the smokers' balcony) of a 10 floor building four miles from the end of Houston Intercontinental's North-South runways.
One week air cadet camp at RAF Binbrook watching Lightnings scramble to intercept Russian bombers and passing SR-71s (just to annoy the Americans). Not to mention twelve years living near Bournemouth (Hurn) and twelve years living on the flight path into Houston Intercontinental.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Another example.

I am sure virtually NO-ONE in the UK has never experienced this ...

Parked up or stuck in traffic on the motorway on a bank holiday weekend. Naturally it's p-p-p-persisting down outside.

Noise of rain drumming on the roof.

Is that noise being "reflected"?

I think not.

 

[ellisdj]

So you have proved that atmos would be ideal for your life story made into a film.

But what about the rest .......?

 

[ellisdj]

Now imagine being in a forest a market a busy high street on a train on a bus in a night club a football stadium a graveyard a party or any where a film is likely to be set.

You must admit that for the majority of these situations the majority of sound you will hear from the horizontal plane so 5 / 7 base layer speakers do this nicely.
But all the added ambience echo reflections that creates the immersion of these types of places where is it most natural to come from??

I don't think the ceiling is the answer do you?

So while atmos maybe be good for the odd effect or isolated scene what about the title Immersive Audio. That is the goal
What system will actually do this better ceiling speakers or height speakers ?

There is only one obvious answer and you can argue all day but if you think about it its straight forward

 

[bigboss]

It's interesting how a person with no proper Atmos experience argues with 2 people who have watched many Atmos movies in their own house and love it, on the basis of one podcast by a rival company.

 

[nugget2014]

I've only had a couple of scenes to test so far with atmos(yet to watch a whole film in it) and so far the atmos effects are more of a jump in immersion than going from 3.1 to 5.1

And thats upfiring!

I need a film that can give me proper use of my surround speakers. So far since having them installed I've not noticed that many effects from them.