idc
Well-known member
So you want to know whether WHF prefers transparent over bright or vice versa? Then read the WHF reviews and see yourself if there is a pattern.
chebby
Well-known member
The only consistent thread that runs thoughout most of your recent posts is a constant 'needling' of WHF, it's staff, it's reviews/reviewing and WHF policies and Andrew Everard in particular.
It has an overall paranoid flavour and phrases like you wanting to post some... "home truths" don't help your case.
As much as we have our differences at times, if I want credibility, then it's Andrew Everard over your ramblings every time.
It has an overall paranoid flavour and phrases like you wanting to post some... "home truths" don't help your case.
As much as we have our differences at times, if I want credibility, then it's Andrew Everard over your ramblings every time.
idc:So you want to know whether WHF prefers transparent over bright or vice versa? Then read the WHF reviews and see yourself if there is a pattern.
Why are you defending them so rigorously idc?
Im asking andrew (Or the other staff) where they stand on this. As ive stated, I believe theyre all so used to swopping cables etc that theyve lost touch a little and they all believe brighter cables are somehow better?
Its a simple question, and yet it appears to have caused so much anger im quite shocked. Anyone would think ive tried to stab somone or something. Everyones entititled to their opinions, and if I feel a question needs to be asked then ill ask it.
Im still waiting for the answer yet..............
Why are you defending them so rigorously idc?
Im asking andrew (Or the other staff) where they stand on this. As ive stated, I believe theyre all so used to swopping cables etc that theyve lost touch a little and they all believe brighter cables are somehow better?
Its a simple question, and yet it appears to have caused so much anger im quite shocked. Anyone would think ive tried to stab somone or something. Everyones entititled to their opinions, and if I feel a question needs to be asked then ill ask it.
Im still waiting for the answer yet..............
chebby:
The only consistent thread that runs thoughout most of your recent posts is a constant 'needling' of WHF, it's staff, it's reviews/reviewing and WHF policies and Andrew Everard in particular.
It has an overall paranoid flavour and phrases like you wanting to post some... "home truths" don't help your case.
As much as we have our differences at times, if I want credibility, then it's Andrew Everard over your ramblings every time.
You have no idea why I posted that 'home truth' post so id suggest you leave that out of it.
Needless to say it has nothing what so ever to do with this post (or indeed any of my posts)
If you wish to blindly follow one particular person thats entirely upto you
You say I ramble? Andrew doesnt even answer questions he doesnt like, he skates around them most of the time. When have I ever backed down from a question? (Or tried to skate around it?)
EDITED BY MODS - please do not discuss moderation
Are we saying that just because Andrew works at WHF that I somehow cant have any thoughts of my own? That my own experiments and experiences count for nothing?
The only consistent thread that runs thoughout most of your recent posts is a constant 'needling' of WHF, it's staff, it's reviews/reviewing and WHF policies and Andrew Everard in particular.
It has an overall paranoid flavour and phrases like you wanting to post some... "home truths" don't help your case.
As much as we have our differences at times, if I want credibility, then it's Andrew Everard over your ramblings every time.
You have no idea why I posted that 'home truth' post so id suggest you leave that out of it.
Needless to say it has nothing what so ever to do with this post (or indeed any of my posts)
If you wish to blindly follow one particular person thats entirely upto you
You say I ramble? Andrew doesnt even answer questions he doesnt like, he skates around them most of the time. When have I ever backed down from a question? (Or tried to skate around it?)
EDITED BY MODS - please do not discuss moderation
Are we saying that just because Andrew works at WHF that I somehow cant have any thoughts of my own? That my own experiments and experiences count for nothing?
Just to add
Seeming as you appear to believe I have some sort of 'beef' with WHF
Ive actually defended them like hell on some sites and had all sorts of backlash. Perhaps this was a mistake...........
Seeming as you appear to believe I have some sort of 'beef' with WHF
Ive actually defended them like hell on some sites and had all sorts of backlash. Perhaps this was a mistake...........
This is going nowhere
It is now yet another thread on cables and reviews which will always be subjective other than addressing the bloody question
I posted a link that does address the issue , seems like no-one has bothered to read it
Mods , do us a favour and put this to bed
It is now yet another thread on cables and reviews which will always be subjective other than addressing the bloody question
I posted a link that does address the issue , seems like no-one has bothered to read it
Mods , do us a favour and put this to bed
idc:
JohnDuncan:I'm lost. Do all cables sound the same or not?
Yes in sighted tests, no in blind tests........goes into hiding with lots of food in a cave...damn there is already someone in here......
Hmm, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that WhatHifi did comparative blind testing on equipment like cables?
In this case the above make's no sense, and all cables should be given the same (average?) rating.
I have unfortunately not tested speaker cables myself, and therefore cannot commet on this interesting debate.
I would however like to comment on the way of testing. It keeps to amaze me how people can discard the blind testing procedure. Sure there are some tricky pitfalls to look out for, but done correctly it is the only way to rule out the placebo effect.
Until someone can demonstrate a better way of testing, this will continue to be the golden standard.
JohnDuncan:I'm lost. Do all cables sound the same or not?
Yes in sighted tests, no in blind tests........goes into hiding with lots of food in a cave...damn there is already someone in here......
Hmm, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that WhatHifi did comparative blind testing on equipment like cables?
In this case the above make's no sense, and all cables should be given the same (average?) rating.
I have unfortunately not tested speaker cables myself, and therefore cannot commet on this interesting debate.
I would however like to comment on the way of testing. It keeps to amaze me how people can discard the blind testing procedure. Sure there are some tricky pitfalls to look out for, but done correctly it is the only way to rule out the placebo effect.
Until someone can demonstrate a better way of testing, this will continue to be the golden standard.
When looking to buy speaker cables to go between my Bryston 7B-SST's and PMC IB2's, the logical place from which to seek advice was PMC themselves. They recommended Van Damme and specified the 6mm rather than 4mm gauge wires. If anyone should know, they should.
The answer to the question is definitely YES.
Why DAMPING
Sorry a lot of those posting on here just don't understand.
Performing a subjective test won't answer the question posed. If the question had been "is it worth spending the money on thicker cable", then a subjective test may reveal the answer wanted. The only way to answer the question posed is a theoretical one.
The first problem you and I have is with our ears, the sound we hear is measured in dB (decibels). the minimum change we can hear is defined as 1 dB. So is that your hearing or that of someone else’s? The next problem is our frequency response, when we were young some of us heard down to 25 to 30 Hz and up to 16 to 22Khz. In older age this drops of may be 50Hz to 12Khz. The bandwidth of an amplifier is measured to where the outputs to lower and higher frequencies has fallen by 3dB. Today most amplifiers are DC so they don't have the lower -3 dB point but your speaker system will. Hold on what about phase shift> the -3dB point has 45 degrees phase shift.
What? Ok lets think about a trumpet, it produces a note and like a bell rings with harmonics, we call it tone. So your ears alone may change the timing the higher frequencies by 45 degrees or more from the original and then your Hi sorry Lo Fi system has the same effect or greater, the harmonic now is at the wrong time, so it should sound different. Hence my reasons for saying subjective / comparative tests are useless unless it is you who perform the test.
I designed transducers, (changes energy in one form to another), vibrators, inertial platforms, vibration transducers and servo systems. At times I tested structures to destruction and at another designed industrial harsh environment tape recorders (one of the best sensors for movement).
Moving on to the theory a little more.
The amplifier you have can be described as a x100 RC (resistor capacitor) network. That is a low pass filter with a gain of 100. The wire to the speaker is an LRC (Inductor, Resistance Capacitance) network. The speaker is also an LRC network. The characteristics of an LRC circuit are a notch (narrow band) pass filter with gain determined by the R element. Back in the days of steam radio the station tuner circuit was a high Q LRC circuit (low R) if you remember we turned a dial turning an interleaved set of aluminium half discs, that was a variable C (capacitor).
Now you come to design your speaker, 3 Ohms is quite common but back in my day 8 ohms was the norm. So that means you will have a high Q network, very spiky and not flat at all. What one has to do is set this point way, way out of the audio range and one ends up with a compromise as the L should be large for power (how many watts) your speaker can handle which means lots of turns in the coil which means a higher R and a higher C value, diminishing returns come to mind.
Ok we now have an imperfect amplifier driving a loud speaker and some silly sod connects them up using a piece of high C high R high L cable. The result could be the cone is so badly controlled by the amplifier the sound is unrecognisable. The damping has been lost.
So at this point one can start and specify what a speaker wire should be like.
Low R so big CSA (Cross Sectional Area) so 6mm is better than 0.1mm and the shorter the better.
Low C, that means great spacing between the conductors and as small a CSA between the conductors as possible. So again short thin, put a steam roller over the conductors flat and wide is fantastic, I am currently looking for some under carpet wire even if it is not used under the carpet.
Low L, that means as short as possible.
So what about this zero oxygen copper cable? Noise from corrosion is what I hear from the posts. I can't see that is such a problem, tin the wires and for me that is job done. All the amplification is done at the early stages of the amplifier to make the signal big, not at the out put where the amplifier makes the signal power full. The input can be a Millie volt while the out put 30 Volts, the input current negligible but the out put current 50 Amps. The important thing is tight connections. Prior to someone saying soldering makes a thermocouple connection I agree but a few micro or pico volts is lost in the scheme of things but if money is no object and you want to be a 100% purist I would not argue and willing sell you expensive cable you don't need.
Why DAMPING
Sorry a lot of those posting on here just don't understand.
Performing a subjective test won't answer the question posed. If the question had been "is it worth spending the money on thicker cable", then a subjective test may reveal the answer wanted. The only way to answer the question posed is a theoretical one.
The first problem you and I have is with our ears, the sound we hear is measured in dB (decibels). the minimum change we can hear is defined as 1 dB. So is that your hearing or that of someone else’s? The next problem is our frequency response, when we were young some of us heard down to 25 to 30 Hz and up to 16 to 22Khz. In older age this drops of may be 50Hz to 12Khz. The bandwidth of an amplifier is measured to where the outputs to lower and higher frequencies has fallen by 3dB. Today most amplifiers are DC so they don't have the lower -3 dB point but your speaker system will. Hold on what about phase shift> the -3dB point has 45 degrees phase shift.
What? Ok lets think about a trumpet, it produces a note and like a bell rings with harmonics, we call it tone. So your ears alone may change the timing the higher frequencies by 45 degrees or more from the original and then your Hi sorry Lo Fi system has the same effect or greater, the harmonic now is at the wrong time, so it should sound different. Hence my reasons for saying subjective / comparative tests are useless unless it is you who perform the test.
I designed transducers, (changes energy in one form to another), vibrators, inertial platforms, vibration transducers and servo systems. At times I tested structures to destruction and at another designed industrial harsh environment tape recorders (one of the best sensors for movement).
Moving on to the theory a little more.
The amplifier you have can be described as a x100 RC (resistor capacitor) network. That is a low pass filter with a gain of 100. The wire to the speaker is an LRC (Inductor, Resistance Capacitance) network. The speaker is also an LRC network. The characteristics of an LRC circuit are a notch (narrow band) pass filter with gain determined by the R element. Back in the days of steam radio the station tuner circuit was a high Q LRC circuit (low R) if you remember we turned a dial turning an interleaved set of aluminium half discs, that was a variable C (capacitor).
Now you come to design your speaker, 3 Ohms is quite common but back in my day 8 ohms was the norm. So that means you will have a high Q network, very spiky and not flat at all. What one has to do is set this point way, way out of the audio range and one ends up with a compromise as the L should be large for power (how many watts) your speaker can handle which means lots of turns in the coil which means a higher R and a higher C value, diminishing returns come to mind.
Ok we now have an imperfect amplifier driving a loud speaker and some silly sod connects them up using a piece of high C high R high L cable. The result could be the cone is so badly controlled by the amplifier the sound is unrecognisable. The damping has been lost.
So at this point one can start and specify what a speaker wire should be like.
Low R so big CSA (Cross Sectional Area) so 6mm is better than 0.1mm and the shorter the better.
Low C, that means great spacing between the conductors and as small a CSA between the conductors as possible. So again short thin, put a steam roller over the conductors flat and wide is fantastic, I am currently looking for some under carpet wire even if it is not used under the carpet.
Low L, that means as short as possible.
So what about this zero oxygen copper cable? Noise from corrosion is what I hear from the posts. I can't see that is such a problem, tin the wires and for me that is job done. All the amplification is done at the early stages of the amplifier to make the signal big, not at the out put where the amplifier makes the signal power full. The input can be a Millie volt while the out put 30 Volts, the input current negligible but the out put current 50 Amps. The important thing is tight connections. Prior to someone saying soldering makes a thermocouple connection I agree but a few micro or pico volts is lost in the scheme of things but if money is no object and you want to be a 100% purist I would not argue and willing sell you expensive cable you don't need.
my stereo sounds like i am inside of it 32awg sattelites 24awg front and center where you place them matters more than anything more is not always better and mind your ohm load at the reciever 32awg is jack wire (i had a whole roll 24awg i stripped from a cheap bs radio
Car audio Engineer For 10+Yrs...
edit:in some cases mind the insullation in car audio we run audio wires opposite the power wires because of alternator noise. I have seen expensive amplifiers with high thd(total harmonic distortion) you can never reproduce a sound without loss or having some type of distortion introduced lower thd is better
Car audio Engineer For 10+Yrs...
edit:in some cases mind the insullation in car audio we run audio wires opposite the power wires because of alternator noise. I have seen expensive amplifiers with high thd(total harmonic distortion) you can never reproduce a sound without loss or having some type of distortion introduced lower thd is better
chebby
Well-known member
More ph#queing spammers who can post links at will, completely immune to the site software that only blocks genuine members!
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