Does a Rega Apollo sound better than a PS3?

[admin_exported]

I realise this is a provocative question on a forum like this, but it’s also an honest one. I have been doing some listening tests and I’m a little confused with the results. So I thought I would share them and see if anyone else has done similar tests and can shed any light.

System
Amp: Naim Nait 5i-2
Speakers: epos M12i
Speaker cable: Chord Carnival Silverscreen
Interconnect: Atlas Equator MK2

Sources
1. PS3 (using the proprietary Sony interconnect)
2. PS3 running through a Beresford 7520 DAC
3. Arcam Alpha 5+
4. Arcam Alpha 5+ running through a Beresford 7520 DAC
5. Rega Apollo

Approach
The Naim is always left on. The rest of the equipment was tuned on and left playing for a few hours. I picked out 4 CDs of different types of music all of which I regard as well produced (e.g. Radiohead In Rainbows, Stan Getz avec Astrud et Joao) and ripped them using EAC and copied to the PS3. I then lined up tracks on each player and the PS3 to exactly the same point and switched between sources on the Naim to compare the sound. Sometimes I left it running for a few seconds and sometimes a few minutes before switching.

Results
I spent many hours (a couple of days actually) doing these tests. I’m generally quite thorough with this kind of thing and I’ve always had a keen interest in hi fi, so I was looking for the usual suspects like soundstage, detail, openness, frequency range etc.
I found there was no difference between any of the sources. I was not expecting this. I bought the Arcam to see if it made a better transport than the PS3 and found it made no difference. I also found the Arcam sounded just the same with or without the DAC. So I scratched my head and decided that, as recommended by What Hi Fi, the Rega will surely sound better than my PS3 or old Arcam. But to my surprise, and as hard as I tried, I could not differentiate between them.

Conclusion
Is it all smoke and mirrors (I was convinced the Rega sounded better until I did the structured test)? Are there really any differences between these sources, or am I (and my girlfriend) not capable of recognising the differences? Either way it seems that for me there is no reason to spend any more than £40 on my CD player (that’s what I picked the Arcam up for). I am also wondering if it’s worth getting hold of a CD5i for testing, but given the rave reviews of the Apollo, I doubt whether it will be worth it for me. Any ideas? Hopefully I have missed something obvious and there’s a world of joy waiting to escape for my Apollo

 

[Anonymous]

well i retired my ps3 from hifi duties because it sounded so poor compared to my dac and cd player

was this the ps3 slim i only compared the older ps3

 

[matthewpiano]

Erm....

I am very surprised with the results of your test but it is how things sound to YOUR ears that matters the most, not what anyone says you should think.

Unsurprisingly given my job, I rate the PS3 very highly as an all-round entertainment machine and I think it works much better as a music source than most people give it credit for. However I wouldn't put it up to anything more than a very entry level CD player and, even then, I'd rather have the CD player due to the fan noise etc. of the PS3.

Personally give me the NAD C545BEE or Rega Apollo every single time, but like I said, it is your own opinion that counts and we all hear things differently.

 

[Anonymous]

This is the old PS3. I had to push up the level a couple of notches to match the output from my other sources, but once the level was right the sound was pretty good.

 

[Anonymous]

How can a PS3 (of all things!) sound even remotely better than a Rega Apollo?

 

[chebby]

My CD5i/Nait 5i combination sounds noticeably better than lossless through my TC-7520 and far better than a CD played on the DVD player.

I cannot comment on the PS3.

I have only heard the Apollo briefly (15 minutes on a shop demo) through the Nait 5i but decided against it.

The all Naim combination is worth trying out at home. (Avoid a shop demo if you can.) It was just so musical (to me at least) that all that worry about 'hifi' effects dropped away in a moment. I just grabbed the first random CD out of the nearest box (this one actually) to ensure everything was working OK and was amazed. It had not even warmed up!

 

[Anonymous]

ValianTX:How can a PS3 (of all things!) sound even remotely better than a Rega Apollo?

I was just as surprised. It doesn't sound better, it just doesn't sound any worse. Again, I was able to convince myself the DAC and the Apollo sounded better until I lined up the sources and did an A/B comparison.

 

[PJPro]

hipe:This is the old PS3. I had to push up the level a couple of notches to match the output from my other sources, but once the level was right the sound was pretty good.
Sorry, but what do you mean by the level? Do you mean the volume setting on the PS3? I found if this was anything above 0 it sounded dreadfully distorted.

I am assuming that you ripped to .wav?

 

[Anonymous]

hipe:
ValianTX:How can a PS3 (of all things!) sound even remotely better than a Rega Apollo?

I was just as surprised. It doesn't sound better, it just doesn't sound any worse. Again, I was able to convince myself the DAC and the Apollo sounded better until I lined up the sources and did an A/B comparison.

I have owned the Rega Apollo and in my opinion, it is still the best cd player for under £600.00 out there. To think that a PS3 (multi-talented, no doubt) can sound as good as this great dedicated cd player just baffles me!!

 

[Anonymous]

PJPro:hipe:This is the old PS3. I had to push up the level a couple of notches to match the output from my other sources, but once the level was right the sound was pretty good. Sorry, but what do you mean by the level? Do you mean the volume setting on the PS3? I found if this was anything above 0 it sounded dreadfully distorted. I am assuming that you ripped to .wav?

Yes, the volume setting on the PS3. From memory I pushed it up to plus 2. I did this so that the level didn't give me a false impression of which source sounded better when I switched between them. I had no distortion, there was no degradation in quality with the increased level. I did rip to wav.

 

[PJPro]

Then I'm surprised too. At plus 4 the PS3 was unlistenable in my system (not as good as yours).

 

[FunkyMonkey]

The thing that makes the PS3 stand out is that it can play both file-based music (from a USB stick, hard-drive, etc) or a CD. The older model from a SACD.

You have to do certain things to get the optimum performance from a PS3:

Set the output frequency to 48kHz.

Set Bitmap Type to 3.

Set the volume to 0.

Use an external DAC.

With these settings, I think the PS3 would sound better than ANY - I mean that - ANY transport this side of £1k.

So what I am saying is that, given the versatility of the sources the PS3 can play, and because of the versatility of teh noise-shaping options you can use, I doubt if any source in the world would sound as detailed as the PS3. It literally extracts EVERY single bit of sound from a source. It's waht you do with that that makes a difference, hence my comment about ensuring you use a DAC.

 

[matthewpiano]

The fan noise still kills it as a serious hi-fi source in my opinion. It may be quieter than an XBox 360 but it still makes its presence felt. In fact, that is one of the reasons why I use a BDP-S363 for Blu-Ray playback - it runs a lot quieter than the console and that is as important to me when watching a film as when listening to music.

 

[Anonymous]

PJPro:Then I'm surprised too. At plus 4 the PS3 was unlistenable in my system (not as good as yours).

I just tried it at +4 and yes, very bad distortion. Plus 2 seems OK though.

 

[chebby]

If you want to equalise the levels then use the variable output on your TC-7520 DAC and use it's volume control rather than the one on the pS3.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:The fan noise still kills it as a serious hi-fi source in my opinion. It may be quieter than an XBox 360 but it still makes its presence felt. In fact, that is one of the reasons why I use a BDP-S363 for Blu-Ray playback - it runs a lot quieter than the console and that is as important to me when watching a film as when listening to music.

Agreed. That's partly why I went for the Arcam. Even though I can't differentiate between them in terms of sound quality I still prefer listening with a dedicated CDP for that reason. Also, the PS3 takes 100w of power, plus another 100w for the TV, so I save 200w of power with a CDP.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:If you want to equalise the levels then use the variable output on your TC-7520 DAC and use it's volume control rather than the one on the pS3.

Good point. Although this was only for the listening tests and some of the tests didn't include the DAC (comparing the PS3 directly with the Apollo for example). Plus the quality was still as good as the other sources even with the level increased. Incidentally I have now sold the DAC as it wasn't doing anything for me, and I was being blinded by the blue lights. I'm inclined to go with your suggestion and try a CD5i. I'm not really a fan of shop demos so I'll see if I can pick one up on ebay.

 

[chebby]

hipe:I'm inclined to go with your suggestion and try a CD5i. I'm not really a fan of shop demos so I'll see if I can pick one up on ebay.

I would get a demo one on loan from a Naim dealer and negotiate an ex-demo price at the same time.

Audio-T have two ex-demo models for £674 right now. (Winter sale price). That way you still get your 3 year dealer warranty and you can register it with Naim for the further 2 years on top of that.

(Don't worry they are both in Wales. My local Audio-T dealer regularly gets ex-demo offers transferred from other branches.)

There is also a good used one at Signals in Ipswich for £550 with 2 years warrantly left. (3rd from bottom of page) These guys are 'Princes' to deal with. (I got my N-Sats from them)

 

[PJPro]

FunkyMonkey:

Set the output frequency to 48kHz.

That can't be right!

 

[PJPro]

You could also try this. You only need the screen on when changing albums or selecting a playlist and allows the use of loads of file formats, including .flac. The noise levels are so low as to be inaudible....as long as you get a quiet external HDD.

I use one connected to my AV amp via optical. You can connect to your DAC. Playback is bit perfect.

There are cheaper versions made by WD which don't sport the network port.

I used to use my PS3 (streaming using UPnP / DLNA from my PC. The WDTV Live is (IMO) much better.

 

[gpi]

I'm sure I read something about this a while ago. I think there's an older PS1 model with analog out facility (RCA) that uses higher spec parts (transport?) than other older models. I believe Stereophile had it on their list of top players. At the end of the day it's only 0s and 1s and the majority of players can get them in the right order. ;o)

 

[Anonymous]

PJPro:You could also try this. You only need the screen on when changing albums or selecting a playlist and allows the use of loads of file formats, including .flac. The noise levels are so low as to be inaudible....as long as you get a quiet external HDD. I use one connected to my AV amp via optical. You can connect to your DAC. Playback is bit perfect. There are cheaper versions made by WD which don't sport the network port. I used to use my PS3 (streaming using UPnP / DLNA from my PC. The WDTV Live is (IMO) much better.

Interesting stuff. I also had a DNLA server running for the PS3 but I found it was too unreliable and I got fed up administrating it (and walking up stairs) when I just wanted to listen to music. The WDTV thing looks good but I got rid of my receiver and DAC so I don't have anything to plug it in to now.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:

hipe:I'm inclined to go with your suggestion and try a CD5i. I'm not really a fan of shop demos so I'll see if I can pick one up on ebay.

I would get a demo one on loan from a Naim dealer and negotiate an ex-demo price at the same time.

Audio-T have two ex-demo models for £674 right now. (Winter sale price). That way you still get your 3 year dealer warranty and you can register it with Naim for the further 2 years on top of that.

(Don't worry they are both in Wales. My local Audio-T dealer regularly gets ex-demo offers transferred from other branches.)

There is also a good used one at Signals in Ipswich for £550 with 2 years warrantly left. (3rd from bottom of page) These guys are 'Princes' to deal with. (I got my N-Sats from them)

Very tempting, thanks for the info. I think that one at Signals is the amp rather the the CDP though.

 

[chebby]

hipe:Very tempting, thanks for the info. I think that one at Signals is the amp rather the the CDP though.

Oops. Sorry. I have about 16 browser tabs open here and was was watching Clement Freud on TV and eating too

Lost the plot a bit. The Audio-T ones were correct though.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

hipe:
I realise this is a provocative question on a forum like this, but it's also an honest one. I have been doing some listening tests and I'm a little confused with the results. So I thought I would share them and see if anyone else has done similar tests and can shed any light.

System
Amp: Naim Nait 5i-2
Speakers: epos M12i
Speaker cable: Chord Carnival Silverscreen
Interconnect: Atlas Equator MK2

Sources
1. PS3 (using the proprietary Sony interconnect)
2. PS3 running through a Beresford 7520 DAC
3. Arcam Alpha 5+
4. Arcam Alpha 5+ running through a Beresford 7520 DAC
5. Rega Apollo

Approach
The Naim is always left on. The rest of the equipment was tuned on and left playing for a few hours. I picked out 4 CDs of different types of music all of which I regard as well produced (e.g. Radiohead In Rainbows, Stan Getz avec Astrud et Joao) and ripped them using EAC and copied to the PS3. I then lined up tracks on each player and the PS3 to exactly the same point and switched between sources on the Naim to compare the sound. Sometimes I left it running for a few seconds and sometimes a few minutes before switching.

Results
I spent many hours (a couple of days actually) doing these tests. I'm generally quite thorough with this kind of thing and I've always had a keen interest in hi fi, so I was looking for the usual suspects like soundstage, detail, openness, frequency range etc.
I found there was no difference between any of the sources. I was not expecting this. I bought the Arcam to see if it made a better transport than the PS3 and found it made no difference. I also found the Arcam sounded just the same with or without the DAC. So I scratched my head and decided that, as recommended by What Hi Fi, the Rega will surely sound better than my PS3 or old Arcam. But to my surprise, and as hard as I tried, I could not differentiate between them.

Conclusion
Is it all smoke and mirrors (I was convinced the Rega sounded better until I did the structured test)? Are there really any differences between these sources, or am I (and my girlfriend) not capable of recognising the differences? Either way it seems that for me there is no reason to spend any more than £40 on my CD player (that's what I picked the Arcam up for). I am also wondering if it's worth getting hold of a CD5i for testing, but given the rave reviews of the Apollo, I doubt whether it will be worth it for me. Any ideas? Hopefully I have missed something obvious and there's a world of joy waiting to escape for my Apollo

All I can suggest is that your ears are not that great. I was recently involved in some blind testing and the conclusions were stark. I've never thought of myself as being someone with golden ears or anything but I would confidently pick out the differences in such a test that you performed. Even if you found that the PS3 was decent as a source, there is no way that it should sound the same as a decent cd player or in fact being used with the Beresford.