Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

audiokid

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I'm looking for clarification further to recent threads on amplifiers, and their apparent 'lack of positive SQ effect' on easy to drive speakers. It has been picked up by many Harbeth fans in particular.

I read that an easy load speaker like Harbeth will have no better SQ by 'feeding' it with a more expensive amplifier if it is played at the same, moderate volume from a decent source.

So does this mean that I can amplify a decent source with a very basic amplifier into some easy to drive (eg Harbeth) speakers, and it will sound as good as a very expensive amplifier if played it at moderate volumes?

For example, will a basic amplifier such as a 85wpc Yamaha A-S500 at around £300 do the same job as a much more expensive amplifier such as a Luxman 505ux, Naim Supernait, Sugden etc?

I realise build quality, reliability, service support etc are important factors, but other than these, are there any benefits to expensive amplifier upgrades if the cheaper one fullfills its duty to the same sonic standard?

I might be able to save lots of money of this is the case! And get some tone controls to boot!
 

CnoEvil

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IMO.

The difference a "really good" amp is very considerable.

If you want to hear this, you can try: Leema Pulse vs Tucana; MF M3i vs M6 500i, Sugden A21 vs Masterclass, or even Rega Brio vs Elite R vs Osiris.

The different Classes of amp (A; AB; B and D) and types (Valve; Hybrid and Solid State) also sound quite different, so it's worth hearing the differences. Few people make the effort, which is a shame

I'm one of those who like to enocourage people to listen to lesser promoted brands like Luxman, VTL, Lavardin, Electrocompaniet, Accuphase, Pathos, Pure Sound, Icon Audio, Unison Research and Audio Note....to name a few.
 

busb

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David makes a crucial point regarding quality - it doesn't always correlate with cost. My experience tells me that amplifiers can make a big difference but all my speakers have been difficult loads where amplifiers are more likely to have an influence anyway.
 

pauln

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I would suggest that you read the appropriate threads on the "HUG" Harbeth User Group forum; if you haven't already done so. There you will find the reasons why amplifiers work (or not). It's really very simple, you need sufficient Watts to drive the speakers without clipping so you do need a good quality amp but that does not have to be expensive.

Contrary to what many claim, a Watt is, in fact, a Watt, a unit of measurement of power, as unchangeable as a metre or a litre and neither valve watts or Naim watts are any different to any other Watts.

However, some people seem to prefer the sound of amps clipping, especially valve amps, it's a nice, warm, analogue kind of sound that probably reminds middle aged men of their childhood. It's comforting but it's not high fidelity in the true sense of the phrase. Again, refer to HUG for more in depth information.

Psychology matters too. Are you the kind of person that would buy a Rolex or a Timex for instance? They both tell you the exact same time but one of them just seems like it should be more accurate.
 

pauln

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CnoEvil said:
IMO.

The difference a "really good" amp is very considerable.

If you want to hear this, you can try: Leema Pulse vs Tucana; MF M3i vs M6 500i, Sugden A21 vs Masterclass, or even Rega Brio vs Elite R vs Osiris.

The different Classes of amp (A; AB; B and D) and types (Valve; Hybrid and Solid State) also sound quite different, so it's worth hearing the differences. Few people make the effort, which is a shame

I'm one of those who like to enocourage people to listen to lesser promoted brands like Luxman, VTL, Lavardin, Electrocompaniet, Accuphase, Pathos, Pure Sound, Icon Audio, Unison Research and Audio Note....to name a few.

So why did you never take up the Harbeth Challenge and win yourself 5 grands worth of speaker if it's so easy?

Oh, hang on, not one person took up the challenge. That speaks volumes to me.
 

audiokid

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Yes thanks, I have read the HUG with interest. Just wanting to get a less Harbeth specific view here on WHF.

Interetsing points so far. So assuming that the amplifier has adequate watts for the speakers, technically speaking it should sound the same as watts are watts, as mentioned? Surely the main (and perhaps only) aim is to get ample power with a decent quality amplifier with key features and service backup? Of course design is important, it has to be nice to look at and a joy to use.

Does power supply noise play a big part? Also, why do amps benefit from from separate pre power?
 

pauln

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David@FrankHarvey said:
pauln said:
Oh, hang on, not one person took up the challenge. That speaks volumes to me.

I think that is more down to the fact that people can't be arsed. Either that, or they don't want Harbeth speakers...

Poor attempt mate.

They are easily sold for close to new price, thought you'd know that, what with you being in the business. Not many would turn their nose up at even £4000 for a days work would they? And surely there must be a few audiophiles out there that would just want to prove Alan Shaw wrong?

To OP - research both sides of the argument and draw your own conclusions.
 

CnoEvil

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pauln said:
So why did you never take up the Harbeth Challenge and win yourself 5 grands worth of speaker if it's so easy?

Oh, hang on, not one person took up the challenge. That speaks volumes to me.

You don't need a chalange to hear the difference between a Cyrus amp and a Unison Research Valve amp.

When I compared the AMS35i with a Moon i7, the difference was clear to all who were there......but you have to be there to hear it.
 

pauln

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CnoEvil said:
pauln said:
So why did you never take up the Harbeth Challenge and win yourself 5 grands worth of speaker if it's so easy?

Oh, hang on, not one person took up the challenge. That speaks volumes to me.

You don't need a chalange to hear the difference between a Cyrus amp and an Unison Research Valve amp.

When I compared the AMS35i with a Moon i7, the difference was clear to all who were there......but you have to be there to hear it.

And it was blind testing, they were working within their design parameters with levels matched? If not, it's meaningless.
 

Macspur

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I've read extensively posts on the Harbeth forum and I know it's Mr Shaw's belief that an amp is an amp and makes no difference to what one hears through his loudspeakers, but as much as I love the SHL5, for whatever reason, I can catagorically say changing from Sugden Masterclass to the E350

produced a great difference in SQ.

In the past I've had an old Sony tuner/amp and changed it for a Cyrus (forgive me can't remember models)

and the difference was obvious. Similarly change from the Cyrus to an old Onyx through some B&WCM1 speakers, the step up in SQ was incredible.
 

DocG

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pauln said:
Contrary to what many claim, a Watt is, in fact, a Watt, a unit of measurement of power, as unchangeable as a metre or a litre and neither valve watts or Naim watts are any different to any other Watts.

Hi Paul,

Sure there is more than Watts. Difficult speakers can challenge an amp with diving impedances and high phase angles (something I read about; I don't pretend I understand it :)). Can you comment?
 

CnoEvil

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pauln said:
And it was blind testing, they were working within their design parameters with levels matched? If not, it's meaningless.

IMO. What's meaningless is forming an opinion without hearing a variety of different amps......though I agree that people should make up their own mind.

Research is good, but listening is crucial.
 

MakkaPakka

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pauln said:
research both sides of the argument and draw your own conclusions.

You can save some time on that here - pretty much every recorded blind test rounded up in one place:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

I want to believe there's differences (because it makes things interesting) but the evidence against is pretty compelling. When you think about all the amazing technology we have today, you have to think that amplifying two channels of sound without distoring it is a pretty basic task that should be easily achievable for not much money.

People try and pick holes in ABX tests but if the differences were as big as people claim then they would be passed rather than coming back as no better than random every single time. ABX tests seem to be just fine when it comes to picking the differences out between speakers. Harbeth wasn't the first to do this type of challenge either.

I am really waiting patiently for some decent evidence there is a difference so I can justify buying a new toy but my head tells me to stick with what I've got because it has all the functionality I need.
 

matt49

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MakkaPakka said:
I am really waiting patiently for some decent evidence there is a difference so I can justify buying a new toy but my head tells me to stick with what I've got because it has all the functionality I need.

I understand your position on this, but it does raise the question: have you listened to to a range of different amps and concluded that you can't tell the difference between them?

Matt
 

floyd droid

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pauln said:
especially valve amps, it's a nice, warm, analogue kind of sound that probably reminds middle aged men of their childhood.

You dont half type a load of bo**o*ks mate and obviously have no idea how modern day valve amps sound compared to yesteryear.

Yeah my 845s are nice warm pipe and slippers sounding. Like feck they are.

My 300B SE is all cuddly wuddly wrapped in cotton wool . Like feck it is.

Complete bollo**s mate. Go away untill you have the slightest idea what you are banging on about regarding valve amps.

Amen. rant over
 

Frank Harvey

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pauln said:
David@FrankHarvey said:
pauln said:
Oh, hang on, not one person took up the challenge. That speaks volumes to me.

I think that is more down to the fact that people can't be arsed. Either that, or they don't want Harbeth speakers...

Poor attempt mate.

They are easily sold for close to new price, thought you'd know that, what with you being in the business. Not many would turn their nose up at even £4000 for a days work would they? And surely there must be a few audiophiles out there that would just want to prove Alan Shaw wrong?

To OP - research both sides of the argument and draw your own conclusions.

Take a step back, 'mate' - there was nothing negative in my post towards Harbeth, only what you read into it. Maybe if someone like B&W offered the challenge, it might be more widely promoted/known about.

I'd take it, but I can't be bothered. Point proven, so not a poor attempt after all.
 

pauln

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DocG said:
pauln said:
Contrary to what many claim, a Watt is, in fact, a Watt, a unit of measurement of power, as unchangeable as a metre or a litre and neither valve watts or Naim watts are any different to any other Watts.

Hi Paul,

Sure there is more than Watts. Difficult speakers can challenge an amp with diving impedances and high phase angles (something I read about; I don't pretend I understand it :)). Can you comment?

I know little about electronics, however I do know (or have learnt) that diving impedance/high phase angle are characteristics of difficult to drive speakers and these speakers will require even more Watts to drive them without clipping. More Watts, higher current. More power.
 

MakkaPakka

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I've owned one AV amp and five stereo amps but I've never been able to compare in the same room with the same speakers level matched so there's no basis to make any comparison.

Being unable to do any meaningful test I defer to the evidence available and all of it says the same thing.
 

pauln

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MakkaPakka said:
pauln said:
research both sides of the argument and draw your own conclusions.

You can save some time on that here - pretty much every recorded blind test rounded up in one place:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

I want to believe there's differences (because it makes things interesting) but the evidence against is pretty compelling. When you think about all the amazing technology we have today, you have to think that amplifying two channels of sound without distoring it is a pretty basic task that should be easily achievable for not much money.

People try and pick holes in ABX tests but if the differences were as big as people claim then they would be passed rather than coming back as no better than random every single time. ABX tests seem to be just fine when it comes to picking the differences out between speakers. Harbeth wasn't the first to do this type of challenge either.

I am really waiting patiently for some decent evidence there is a difference so I can justify buying a new toy but my head tells me to stick with what I've got because it has all the functionality I need.

Pretty much the same as my own thoughts really.
 

matt49

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pauln said:
I know little about electronics, however I do know (or have learnt) that diving impedance/high phase angle are characteristics of difficult to drive speakers and these speakers will require even more Watts to drive them without clipping. More Watts, higher current. More power.

So you accept that wattage isn't all that matters; current matters too. This is why a low-wattage, high-current design, such as a 30W Class A amp, is better at driving difficult speakers than a low-wattage, low-current design, e.g. a low-spec Class A/B amp. Class A amps for the most part also sound different from Class A/B amps, because unlike Class A/B amps they don't suffer from crossover distortion. Different designs can sound different. It's not simply a matter of wattage.

Matt
 

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