Diy room treatment

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

But Quest.don't you ever have a what if moment...yes there might not be a problem in my room but what if it could sound better than it sounds at the moment....for little outlay and just a general interest in the hobby that it is we all love.

Curiosity my friend is what defines us and let's us build what we build and invent the things that makes our lives far flung from stoneage.

 

[insider9]

2m appart, 25cm from back wall, right speaker 57cm from sidewall.

Floor plan

Let me have a look for you. The overal volume here will make a difference.

Now I'm making more sense. If room extends or has an alcove you need to increase that dimension. The 70Hz you report is to do with width. Have a look here

You could try sitting about a meter back if at all possible. I know this would not be eqilateral triangel and my soundstage but just try. Toe-in may need adjusting too.

Here's how it could potentially look (link)

 

[Vladimir]

2m appart, 25cm from back wall, right speaker 57cm from sidewall.

Floor plan

Let me have a look for you. The overal volume here will make a difference.

Now I'm making more sense. If room extends or has an alcove you need to increase that dimension. The 70Hz you report is to do with width. Have a look here

You could try sitting about a meter back if at all possible. I know this would not be eqilateral triangel and my soundstage but just try. Toe-in may need adjusting too.

Here's how it could potentially look (link)

Thanks. I'll do further experiments with positioning. I'm thinking of using my golden retriever as bass trap. He's very furry in winter.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Buying a microphone to a problem that maybe doesn’t exist or isn’t perceived, would be like me buying one to measure the plop sound in the toilet when I’ve no need.

I'm not going to entertain this level of debate. Either make your points in a grown up manner or not at all.

For someone who spent a significant amount of money on cables that make significantly less difference I'm in disbelief that you would begrudge anyone trying to make actual difference by spending less.

I don’t begrudge anyone trying to make a difference, and always each to their own, and I won’t get into debate on whether cables are better than room acoustics, as since you know it’s all system dependent, as always.

but try to set out on a problem that doesnt exist for the sake of improvement and for the sake of a hobby, sorry, buts that’s beyond my comprehension. Particularly if it costs. It seems to be a terrible waste of time too. Trying to get it properly sounding better by doing constructive upgrades when you can, a different kettle of fish.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Buying a microphone to a problem that maybe doesn’t exist or isn’t perceived, would be like me buying one to measure the plop sound in the toilet when I’ve no need.

I'm not going to entertain this level of debate. Either make your points in a grown up manner or not at all.

sorry father I’ll make sure I don’t do it again.

 

[knaithrover]

Buying a microphone to a problem that maybe doesn’t exist or isn’t perceived, would be like me buying one to measure the plop sound in the toilet when I’ve no need.

I'm not going to entertain this level of debate. Either make your points in a grown up manner or not at all.

For someone who spent a significant amount of money on cables that make significantly less difference I'm in disbelief that you would begrudge anyone trying to make actual difference by spending less.

I don’t begrudge anyone trying to make a difference, and always each to their own, and I won’t get into debate on whether cables are better than room acoustics, as since you know it’s all system dependent, as always.

but try to set out on a problem that doesnt exist for the sake of improvement and for the sake of a hobby, sorry, buts that’s beyond my comprehension. Particularly if it costs. It seems to be a terrible waste of time too. Trying to get it properly sounding better by doing constructive upgrades when you can, a different kettle of fish.

I think it's interesting (room treatment) one of my listening spaces is very large with a lot of glass and bare floors/walls and although Im relatively happy with my set up I'm positive improvements can be made in this area. Each to their own as you say, let the guys debate this and don't read it/butt in if you disagree it's unnecessary

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think everything can be subject to scrutiny knaithroverto the extent of whether the op can see if it’s worthwhile and with some balance, because the questions I was asking in one of my previous posts was I think very valid. The effects of volume levels and other factors all have an effect on room effects, and correct me I’m wrong insider but you were posting to say it makes a good difference on a graph. But we need to understand the graph, how it’s measured before we consider it reliable. If that’s too onerous to present I’d understand.

but the point is often in hi Fi debates and issues, that a lot gets said on measurements without much consideration to what these show, how they measured and things like how they apply, and what can be drawn from them. Insider in my view posts lots about technicalities and sometimes he gets hung up too much on this in my opinion and not how matters relate to practical considerations - if it’s really big on the graph, is it in reality and why or not so. I’d stand corrected on that if he actually showed in full on lots of these posts, in layman’s terms what he means and how he gets there. Is there a meaningful difference to the two graphs and why. What effect does volume have on differences a metre from the wall or on the back wall etc.

 

[insider9]

If you don't know how to read measurements and have no interest in understanding them, that's fine. But don't assume others are like you and don't assume it's all subjective. I've noticed that you do that when faced with facts. Deflect saying it's all subjective.

Room interaction is not subjective. It will happen at any given volume and happens if you like it or not including in your room. What may not be obvious is how volume related changes affect the listener. If it's a peak it will be noticeable instantly but more at higher volume. Long reverberation also, especially at low frequencies. But more nuanced things like early reflections, nils may not be so obvious and contribute largely to sound heard.

I have no theoretical interest in acoustics and psychoacoustics other than what I can apply in real life. I spent a lot of time learning about it and could spent years learning about the subject and still have more to learn. On the surface it's not difficult but the more you learn the more you understand how little you know.

And I'm sorry seeing how you have your own definitions to many terms I have absolutely no interest in explaining room acoustics to you and answering to your "scrutiny". There's lots of info in the Internet if you want to learn. It's time to agree to disagree. I don't want to waste any more time.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’d have interest in them if they showed something but often they don’t, as in this thread.

im not saying it is subjective. Far from it. I’m saying if you are to present to people two charts accross the frequency range of sitting 1metre from the back wall, or on the back wall, you need to know what this shows. How it’s measured and what we take from it. If you don’t do that, then you are not adding to people understanding on here. Then to say it gives good differences is rather onerous. It may not give any difference if Someone listens with the volume relatively low and your test graphs are at higher volume . You are also making recommendations to spend money on this basis. It all seems to me obvious questions to ask whenever anyone presents a graph and it’s not clear.

Id agree with you room interaction is not subjective, but measurements canot be explained as above. Or in other words they are not properly objective, which is what you seem to do a lot. I just go off what I hear in picking big differences, unless I’m strongly steered from what makes a lot of sense in information, and I can assure you there isn’t much issues in my acoustic environment, so it maybe is pretty decent. But I wouldn’t say to someone it can give a good difference when we have no idea whether it is good or nothing at all, on all the circumstances.

if you are not interested in explaining what you know to get to where you are, it’s a shame because this is a forum and I’m sure lots of people would like to know how you get to your views and how you can say what you do. I’ve no idea where your graphs come from for eg. You spend enough time doing it so that’s surely not a consideration.

 

[insider9]

Start asking specific questions and I'll tell you what I know. As is you just complain about measurements on every thread... there were no measurements in this thread by the way.

I've presented a couple of graphs to Mark and Vlad. If they're not sure what they mean I'm quite happy to explain but that's up them to ask. I don't judge and offered help just the same way Ellisdj did a while back to me.

I'd quite happily help you with your room but when you start the conversation from "it's a waste of time" and dismiss the deal offhand what do you expect?

 

[Electro]

Here are a few pictures of my room and my home designed acoustic bits and bobs .

It was all done by ear, instinct , luck, hundreds of hours of deep thought and a pair of step ladders, no measurements were taken but the results are amazing !

I admit it is a bit visually challenged but I will tidy it all up in future.

The large panel in front of the curtains is a 2D Binary Amplitude Diffsorber or BAD panel , the one hanging from the ceiling is a BAD ARC panel .

Please feel free to ask questions or poke fun. *biggrin*

http://www.rpgeurope.com/products/product/arc.html

 

[Vladimir]

That ceiling thing is brilliant. I think that solves plenty in a typical room.

How did you manage to rent Deep Thought?

If it can solve Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything in seven and a half million years, I guess room acoustics for few hundred hours are not a problem.

 

[insider9]

Great job! I know how time consuming it is and that's supported by measurements. I'd not sure how I'd do without.

Is that BAD as acoustic cloud? Have you had any ceiling treatment before?

How much difference did diffusion do? I'm only using absorption at the minute and diffusion is next on the list.

 

[Electro]

That ceiling thing is brilliant. I think that solves plenty in a typical room.

How did you manage to rent Deep Thought? If it can solve Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything in seven and a half million years, I guess room acoustics for few hundred hours are not a problem.

*biggrin*

 

[Vladimir]

If we want to calculate the effect of an 8 foot ceiling, the wavelength is 2H or 16 ft. (Remember, it's a round trip.) The speed of sound is 1130 ft/second, so the fundamental of enhanced frequencies is 70hz. The same thing will happen for the length and width of the room. These three paths are called the axial modes.

source

 

[insider9]

Saving grace is that most are suspended and not actual ceilings which help.

 

[Electro]

Great job! I know how time consuming it is and that's supported by measurements. I'd not sure how I'd do without.

Is that BAD as acoustic cloud? Have you had any ceiling treatment before?

How much difference did diffusion do? I'm only using absorption at the minute and diffusion is next on the list.

Yes it's a BAD ARC panel as an acoustic cloud, they can also be used as a wall panel, and no this is my first attemp at treating the ceiling but it makes a tremendous improvemet to decay times and imaging as a result.

The main advantage is that you can control refections without killing the live fresh exiting feel of the room, it takes away all the nasty edges especially on loud hard struck piano recordings that tend to ring in the room and removes the bluring from the decay of the notes caused by flutter echo.

The beauty is that they also have a degree of absortion to but not to much, the spec is in the links of my last post .

 

[insider9]

Yes, I've already seen them yesterday (I think it was). Just didn't register it was on ceiling.

Ceiling was the biggest reflection for me with last speakers. With Red Rose and ribbons it's a non issue. I could take the cloud down as their vertical dispersion is low, especially on Dappolito design.

I'm really tempted to do some diffusers but they demand precision and weigh a ton.

Do you fancy having your room measured?

 

[Vladimir]

I tuned my room subjectively using some classic music.

 

[DocG]

Great job! I know how time consuming it is and that's supported by measurements. I'd not sure how I'd do without.

Is that BAD as acoustic cloud? Have you had any ceiling treatment before?

How much difference did diffusion do? I'm only using absorption at the minute and diffusion is next on the list.

Hi insider,

Did you come across Tim Perry’s fractal diffusers yet? Interesting reading (on my level of understanding, that is). I toyed with the idea of having them CNC’ed, for use behind the Maggies, but I let go since it was too much for a neat living room. It still itches though...

 

[insider9]

Hi DocG,

At the time I only considered Skylines. The ones you linked are 2d so will diffuse in one plain only. They would also work depending on placement.

Now that I have nothing going in vertical plain anyway it could be a good shout

 

[abacus]

I’d have interest in them if they showed something but often they don’t, as in this thread.

im not saying it is subjective. Far from it. I’m saying if you are to present to people two charts accross the frequency range of sitting 1metre from the back wall, or on the back wall, you need to know what this shows. How it’s measured and what we take from it. If you don’t do that, then you are not adding to people understanding on here. Then to say it gives good differences is rather onerous. It may not give any difference if Someone listens with the volume relatively low and your test graphs are at higher volume . You are also making recommendations to spend money on this basis. It all seems to me obvious questions to ask whenever anyone presents a graph and it’s not clear.

Id agree with you room interaction is not subjective, but measurements canot be explained as above. Or in other words they are not properly objective, which is what you seem to do a lot. I just go off what I hear in picking big differences, unless I’m strongly steered from what makes a lot of sense in information, and I can assure you there isn’t much issues in my acoustic environment, so it maybe is pretty decent. But I wouldn’t say to someone it can give a good difference when we have no idea whether it is good or nothing at all, on all the circumstances.

if you are not interested in explaining what you know to get to where you are, it’s a shame because this is a forum and I’m sure lots of people would like to know how you get to your views and how you can say what you do. I’ve no idea where your graphs come from for eg. You spend enough time doing it so that’s surely not a consideration.

How room acoustics effect the sound is known (Designing them out is the art) and has been for decades, so this nonsense of yours about it doesn’t prove anything, (Except possibly your inability to understand) when the basics are easily identified in school physics classes, you should at least get the basics. (Think about it how would room correction systems in AV amplifiers and pro installations work if they didn’t know what to measure and how to apply the corrections)

As has been mentioned many times before, there are many YouTube videos that explain it, and I have posted links to a number of them in your various posts over various threads, that you refuse to watch them or you have watched them and you believe them to be conspiracies, just shows that you have no interest in helping others, but are just posting your beliefs and presenting them as facts. (Hence the reason you have never been able to provide verifiable evidence about your claims)

Give it a break before you lose all credibility with pretty much everybody.

Bill

 

[Andrewjvt]

Insider: your becoming the expert
Electro: nice. Bet it sounds great
Quest: never before have I read so much bull **** from one single person.

 

[insider9]

Thanks Andrew. Long way to go. In fact this thread motivates me to improve more. I've already tried a couple of things which yield sonic improvements now all that's left is to measure before I decide on next steps.

 

[Gazzip]

Thanks Andrew. Long way to go. In fact this thread motivates me to improve more. I've already tried a couple of things which yield sonic improvements now all that's left is to measure before I decide on next steps.

It will be interesting to see what the measurements say if you’ve been doing this by ear so far. Totally flat isn’t supposed to sound very good according to the experts, and most Including myself tend to agree. I bet you’ve got a hump between 20Hz and 400Hz...