Disappointed with YAMAHA A-S501

[Dr. Delban]

Today I have unboxed and connected my new YAMAHA A-S501. I have "upgraded" from Marantz PM6002. The only reason for an upgrade was because the PM6002 doesn't have a designated subwoofer output. I have recently bought a good quality B&W ASW608 woofer and I really want to keep it.

When I demoed the Yamaha in a store, it sounded OK and it was hard to tell any major differences because of different room acoustics etc, speakers were also sligthly different (MA BR2, and I have the BX2's).

The only weird thing which I noticed whilst demoeing was bubbling sound when adjusting bass whilst playing the beginning of "Host Of Seraphim" by Dead Can Dance. The song starts with a sustained constant bass synth wave sound. When I adjusted bass levels whils this bass wave played, I could hear clicking/bubbling in the speakers. It didn't happen with other tracks I played on that day.

When I got back home I tried doing the same thing on the Marantz and there was no clicking/bubbling.

When I started listening to the music at home, I have noticed that treble adjustment is weak. On the Marantz I would have to turn it to max only with very unclear sounding tracks or speech. With this one, I am keeping it at max most of the time and there is hardly any difference between the max and 3 o'clock position. When turned to max I cannot hear the same sharp, mettalic sounding, clear high frequencies which I was able to hear on the Marantz set-up.

Same thing with the bass. Songs are lacking that punch I was used to with my previous amp. Today I played Marilyn Manson's Deep Six which is a heavy rock song which is supposed to shake the floor. I kept adjusting bass and treble, and couldn't get it to sound the way it should. Only when I turned on the X-Fi on my PC's sound card on, the song started sounding dynamic and gained some punch. I have listened to several other songs which I am familiar with and all of them were lacking a punch, bass, and treble, even with everything maxed out. It clearly sounds worse than Marantz.

Marantz amp has a "loudness" button which I used to keep switched on most of the time. It used to make everyhing sound so much better. Yamaha doesn't have that - it has a loudness knob instead.

Apart from the poor sound, I am shocked by how bad the remote control is. It looks so cheap and is very uncomfortable. Volume controls are positioned in the most awkward position possible - in the lower part of the remote. It makes me go mad.

Another thing is, the amp is gigantic, as big as an AV receiver. I don't understand why. I used to think that the Marantz was large, but this is just too damn big and heavy.

On top of all that, it gets very very warm, on the edge of HOT. Marantz used to be always cold. With this one I could smell the components in my room. I keep a CD player on top of it, and did the same with the PM6002 for four years, and the amp would never go any near the temperature that this one reached on day 1 of use, with rather low ambient temperature.

I think I am going to return it. I will keep it for a few days, hoping it will burn-in and start sounding better.

Tomorrow I will hook up the Marntz again and try connecting subwoofer to the Marantz's REC OUT or REMOTE CONTROL to see if it works this way. If it does, I will return the shitty sounding gigantic YAMAHA to the store and ask for a refund.

 

[Dr. Delban]

I just plugged my Grado headphones in, speakers automatically go off. It seems like a cool function, but Marantz amp gives the flexibily and allows you to have headphones and speakers both on at the same time.

 

[rainsoothe]

for B&W stuff, check out used Rotel RA 1062 or RA 1520. They also have the option of having the phones plugged in and switching the speakers on or off, and soundwise it destroys the wimpy Yamaha (imo).

 

[luckylion100]

Hi there, Upon reading your post it struck me perhaps you were expecting too much in terms of an upgrade in performance. I understand you required the additional support for your sub, fair enough. I don't run a sub myself, other than in my home cinema set up and that barely gets used so I don't feel qualifed to comment on your issues there.

I cast my mind back to when I 'upgraded' from my marantz PM7000 amp to the Roksan, at first I was mightedly disappointed and posted my reaction on here. I think my Marantz was simply that good, less of a reflection on the Roksan... Perhaps the same can be said for your Marantz too...

You also seemed to rely heavily on tone controls and the loudness option when using your Marantz, is the Yamaha simply presenting more of a 'pure', less enhanced and undistorted sound, a case of your ears simply needing to readjust...

As for the heat the Yamaha is creating, I personally think it's madness to mount components directly on top of one another. maybe the Yamaha is screaming out to you for a little space...

 

[TrevC]

Clicking and bubbling from the speakers on heavy bass sounds like woofers reaching their power limit. How loud was it playing?

 

[Dr. Delban]

No its not the woofers reaching power limit. It wasn't playing loud and I tried it at different volumes. I could only hear this whilst turning the knob. Once I sstopped it in one position, it sounded fine.

It sounds more like some bad circuity or poor sound processing in the amp I think. But it only happens with this particular DCD track.

 

[davedotco]

Clicking and bubbling from the speakers on heavy bass sounds like woofers reaching their power limit. How loud was it playing?

It might not sound particularly loud if the issue is very low bass. If the op is using large amounts of bass boost combined with the loudness control a lot of power may be used driving frequencies that the speakers can not reproduce as audible bass but cause the bass cones to flap at frequencies below the port frequency.

A lot of people do not realise that increasing the bass by 6dB, will, on most music, require the amplifier to produce 4 times as much power as with the bass flat. Sounds to me that the op is simply running up against the power handling capabilities of his speakers, something that did not happen with his old amplifier.

 

[davedotco]

No its not the woofers reaching power limit. It wasn't playing loud and I tried it at different volumes. I could only hear this whilst turning the knob. Once I sstopped it in one position, it sounded fine.

It sounds more like some bad circuity or poor sound processing in the amp I think. But it only happens with this particular DCD track.

Ahhh, That is much clearer.

Just read that, sounds like a faulty amplifier. Maybe a design fault, maybe just a faulty sample.

Though the point I made earlier about using a large amount of bass boost is worth taking on board, you could be wasting a lot of your amplifiers capabilities on frequencies you can not hear.

 

[Dr. Delban]

Hi there, Upon reading your post it struck me perhaps you were expecting too much in terms of an upgrade in performance. I understand you required the additional support for your sub, fair enough. I don't run a sub myself, other than in my home cinema set up and that barely gets used so I don't feel qualifed to comment on your issues there.

I cast my mind back to when I 'upgraded' from my marantz PM7000 amp to the Roksan, at first I was mightedly disappointed and posted my reaction on here. I think my Marantz was simply that good, less of a reflection on the Roksan... Perhaps the same can be said for your Marantz too...

You also seemed to rely heavily on tone controls and the loudness option when using your Marantz, is the Yamaha simply presenting more of a 'pure', less enhanced and undistorted sound, a case of your ears simply needing to readjust...

As for the heat the Yamaha is creating, I personally think it's madness to mount components directly on top of one another. maybe the Yamaha is screaming out to you for a little space...

To be honest, I wasn't expecting any improvement. I didn't realise that there could be such difference in sound between these two amps.
I rely on tone controls and loudness because I like to tune the amp to every music genre, artist, album, track etc. I cannot imagine having the amp kept on a flat setting all the time. It makes no nense. Some tracks require treble boos, some not etc.

My point is that with this amp I cannot get high frequrency percussive tones sound as good as they did with the Marantz. They don't sound bad at all, but I have to keep the treble on max most of times and sometimes I still want more.

 

[Dr. Delban]

No its not the woofers reaching power limit. It wasn't playing loud and I tried it at different volumes. I could only hear this whilst turning the knob. Once I sstopped it in one position, it sounded fine.

It sounds more like some bad circuity or poor sound processing in the amp I think. But it only happens with this particular DCD track.

Ahhh, That is much clearer.

Just read that, sounds like a faulty amplifier. Maybe a design fault, maybe just a faulty sample.

Though the point I made earlier about using a large amount of bass boost is worth taking on board, you could be wasting a lot of your amplifiers capabilities on frequencies you can not hear.

Now having the woofer hooked up and the DM110i's I keep bass flat or turn it to 1 o'clock at the most.

No issues apart from the DCD track. It doesn't affect the experience in practice, just shows that there is something wrong with this amp.

I'm thinking now maybe the PM6002 is able to drive a subwoofer hooked to its recorder out? I want to test it but I dont have a twin RCA cable. I only have a single RCA woofer cable.

Will it be ok to test this configuration hooking it up to one channel only? The sub has inputs L+R and the PM6002 has rec out L+R too so would it be ok to just try it with L or R ? I don't want to damage any components.

Thanks.

 

[MajorFubar]

Can I be honest: to me it seems there's just a chasmic gap between what you want to use tone controls for (huge frequency boosts) compared to what the Yamaha designers designed them for (minor adjustments of probably ±6dB or less). The Yamaha probably doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as you're making out, but when in your opinion an amp's sound lives or dies by the gain of its bass and treble controls, the Yamaha probably hasn't got a leg to stand on. What you want is an old fashioned graphic equalizer with lots of sliders and (usually) 12dB of cut/boost across the spectrum. Not too difficult to find second hand, but it relies on the Yamaha having something akin to a tape-loop.

 

[AntAxon]

I found a similar thing when I upgraded from the Marantz PM57 to the PM8005. I always used the loudness button on the PM57 at low volumes as it gave a better sound. When I got the PM8005 there was no loudness button but it did have a bass, mid and treble. The mid really brings out the vocals but even with the bass turned up it was not dramatic as my old amp but the sound was much clearer and better sound separation between frequencies. I was not really impressed with the source direct function.

Other members of the forum suggested that the loudness button gave a warmth to the sound which I had got used too and I should give the direct source a decent trial as thats how the music was meant to be heard. I gave it a go and I must admit they were right. I never use the bass, mid or treble now not even at low volumes.

My only possible regret is getting Tannoy DC6 SE speaker rather than the floorstander equivalent as a bit more bass would be nice. Having said that my sons Wharfedale 155's sound give too much bass and muffle the higher frequencies.

If I were you I would give the Yamaha bit longer before you decide to take it back to the shop.

 

[davedotco]

No its not the woofers reaching power limit. It wasn't playing loud and I tried it at different volumes. I could only hear this whilst turning the knob. Once I sstopped it in one position, it sounded fine.

It sounds more like some bad circuity or poor sound processing in the amp I think. But it only happens with this particular DCD track.

Ahhh, That is much clearer.

Just read that, sounds like a faulty amplifier. Maybe a design fault, maybe just a faulty sample.

Though the point I made earlier about using a large amount of bass boost is worth taking on board, you could be wasting a lot of your amplifiers capabilities on frequencies you can not hear.

Now having the woofer hooked up and the DM110i's I keep bass flat or turn it to 1 o'clock at the most.

No issues apart from the DCD track. It doesn't affect the experience in practice, just shows that there is something wrong with this amp.

I'm thinking now maybe the PM6002 is able to drive a subwoofer hooked to its recorder out? I want to test it but I dont have a twin RCA cable. I only have a single RCA woofer cable.

Will it be ok to test this configuration hooking it up to one channel only? The sub has inputs L+R and the PM6002 has rec out L+R too so would it be ok to just try it with L or R ? I don't want to damage any components.

Thanks.

Absolutely not!

These are fixed level outputs and could possibly dameage your sub, do not even try it.

Odd that the problems only occur on one song on one disc, maybe there is some extra sub bass output that is causing a problem? If it's only the one track i would be inclined to forget it.

 

[DocG]

Why not connect the sub through the speaker level connections? You can connect the speaker cable in parallel with your main speakers to the amp. If using bare wire, just twist the wires together. If you use banana plugs, it's more difficult of course.

 

[Dr. Delban]

I tried this before buying new amp and yes, it worked but there were such issues like constant humming coming from the sub etc etc. I don't like ghetto configurations of this type if you know what I mean. I want to have equi[pment connected the right way.

 

[Al ears]

Why not connect the sub through the speaker level connections? You can connect the speaker cable in parallel with your main speakers to the amp. If using bare wire, just twist the wires together. If you use banana plugs, it's more difficult of course.

To that end there are, of course, plug adaptors available like the Furutech type that will take one banana plug and a bare wire.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Can I be honest: to me it seems there's just a chasmic gap between what you want to use tone controls for (huge frequency boosts) compared to what the Yamaha designers designed them for (minor adjustments of probably ±6dB or less). The Yamaha probably doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as you're making out, but when in your opinion an amp's sound lives or dies by the gain of its bass and treble controls, the Yamaha probably hasn't got a leg to stand on. What you want is an old fashioned graphic equalizer with lots of sliders and (usually) 12dB of cut/boost across the spectrum. Not too difficult to find second hand, but it relies on the Yamaha having something akin to a tape-loop.

I agree with this. If you feel the need to play with bass and trebble so much you should look for a Graphic Equalizer. The Yamaha is a 'natural sound' product. I personally think the fact it comes with bass, trebble and variable loudness is extremely rare.

Use the Yamaha sub out to drive your sub, not the record out as this is not variable with the volume control. Add a graphic EQ and set the Yamaha to direct, also don't stack things on top of an amplifier. Stacking on top of an amp is asking for trouble.

 

[Dr. Delban]

No its not the woofers reaching power limit. It wasn't playing loud and I tried it at different volumes. I could only hear this whilst turning the knob. Once I sstopped it in one position, it sounded fine.

It sounds more like some bad circuity or poor sound processing in the amp I think. But it only happens with this particular DCD track.

Ahhh, That is much clearer.

Just read that, sounds like a faulty amplifier. Maybe a design fault, maybe just a faulty sample.

Though the point I made earlier about using a large amount of bass boost is worth taking on board, you could be wasting a lot of your amplifiers capabilities on frequencies you can not hear.

Now having the woofer hooked up and the DM110i's I keep bass flat or turn it to 1 o'clock at the most.

No issues apart from the DCD track. It doesn't affect the experience in practice, just shows that there is something wrong with this amp.

I'm thinking now maybe the PM6002 is able to drive a subwoofer hooked to its recorder out? I want to test it but I dont have a twin RCA cable. I only have a single RCA woofer cable.

Will it be ok to test this configuration hooking it up to one channel only? The sub has inputs L+R and the PM6002 has rec out L+R too so would it be ok to just try it with L or R ? I don't want to damage any components.

Thanks.

Absolutely not!

These are fixed level outputs and could possibly dameage your sub, do not even try it.

Odd that the problems only occur on one song on one disc, maybe there is some extra sub bass output that is causing a problem? If it's only the one track i would be inclined to forget it.

Yeah I did forget about it the moment I tried out the treble adjustment :/ now treble is my main issue.

If anyone on here has the same amp or any other from the same series please check this for yourself, play DCD - Host of seraphim and listen closely whilst adjusting bass.

I think in future I will get rid of the DM 110i's and get a pair of speakers which actually have working tweeters, I planned this before anyway.

But still, I don't like the weaker high frequencies on the Yamaha, this is the main issue. I somehow forgot about the awkward remote control and couple of other annoying things.
I'm guessing it is just a matter of getting used to a different amp.

I still don't understand why Hi-Fi manufacturers tend to install sub outputs mainly in surround amplifiers? There are so few stereo amps with sub out.

 

[Dr. Delban]

Can I be honest: to me it seems there's just a chasmic gap between what you want to use tone controls for (huge frequency boosts) compared to what the Yamaha designers designed them for (minor adjustments of probably ±6dB or less). The Yamaha probably doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as you're making out, but when in your opinion an amp's sound lives or dies by the gain of its bass and treble controls, the Yamaha probably hasn't got a leg to stand on. What you want is an old fashioned graphic equalizer with lots of sliders and (usually) 12dB of cut/boost across the spectrum. Not too difficult to find second hand, but it relies on the Yamaha having something akin to a tape-loop.

I agree with this. If you feel the need to play with bass and trebble so much you should look for a Graphic Equalizer. The Yamaha is a 'natural sound' product. I personally think the fact it comes with bass, trebble and variable loudness is extremely rare.

Use the Yamaha sub out to drive your sub, not the record out as this is not variable with the volume control. Add a graphic EQ and set the Yamaha to direct, also don't stack things on top of an amplifier. Stacking on top of an amp is asking for trouble.

I am using the sub out on Yamaha to drive the amp. I was saying that I want to try using rec out on the Marantz to see if it works and if yes - then keep using this amp.

If I decide to keep the Yahama it will be so so painful to sell the Marantz... I will need a few drinks...

 

[Dr. Delban]

post deleted

 

[DocG]

I tried this before buying new amp and yes, it worked but there were such issues like constant humming coming from the sub etc etc. I don't like ghetto configurations of this type if you know what I mean. I want to have equi[pment connected the right way.

Actually no, I don't know what you mean. Many prefer the sub to be connected this way, even when a line out is available. It often 'blends' better with the main speakers. Why would B&W provide the speaker level inputs if that's the wrong way of connecting the sub? The constant humming was probably a grounding issue.

 

[Dr. Delban]

I tried this before buying new amp and yes, it worked but there were such issues like constant humming coming from the sub etc etc. I don't like ghetto configurations of this type if you know what I mean. I want to have equi[pment connected the right way.

Actually no, I don't know what you mean. Many prefer the sub to be connected this way, even when a line out is available. It often 'blends' better with the main speakers. Why would B&W provide the speaker level inputs if that's the wrong way of connecting the sub? The constant humming was probably a grounding issue.

Yeah you're right.
But if it was a grounding issue, how come there is no hum now? Did it become grounded when connected to the sub out? I don't get it.

 

[DocG]

I tried this before buying new amp and yes, it worked but there were such issues like constant humming coming from the sub etc etc. I don't like ghetto configurations of this type if you know what I mean. I want to have equi[pment connected the right way.

Actually no, I don't know what you mean. Many prefer the sub to be connected this way, even when a line out is available. It often 'blends' better with the main speakers. Why would B&W provide the speaker level inputs if that's the wrong way of connecting the sub? The constant humming was probably a grounding issue.

Yeah you're right.But if it was a grounding issue, how come there is no hum now? Did it become grounded when connected to the sub out? I don't get it.

Maybe the speaker cable makes for a huge loop that picks up hum, and sends it to the sub's amplifier, which - indeed - amplifies the hum too. While the interconnect is shielded, and doesn't pick it up: nothing to amplify for your sub, no hum.

I know there's far more knowledgeable folk here, who can analyze this with more authority. It would be nice if shielding your speaker cable resolved your issue, so you could keep enjoying your Marantz amp...

 

[peterpiper]

if the as501 sounds like the as500, then i am not surprised at the op dissapointment, never got on with mine, now i know what is meant by 'dry sound', and yes i got distortion and static too (bubbling sound ?) when i adjusted bass or even the volume,

 

[Dr. Delban]

I tried this before buying new amp and yes, it worked but there were such issues like constant humming coming from the sub etc etc. I don't like ghetto configurations of this type if you know what I mean. I want to have equi[pment connected the right way.

Actually no, I don't know what you mean. Many prefer the sub to be connected this way, even when a line out is available. It often 'blends' better with the main speakers. Why would B&W provide the speaker level inputs if that's the wrong way of connecting the sub? The constant humming was probably a grounding issue.

Yeah you're right.But if it was a grounding issue, how come there is no hum now? Did it become grounded when connected to the sub out? I don't get it.

Maybe the speaker cable makes for a huge loop that picks up hum, and sends it to the sub's amplifier, which - indeed - amplifies the hum too. While the interconnect is shielded, and doesn't pick it up: nothing to amplify for your sub, no hum.

I know there's far more knowledgeable folk here, who can analyze this with more authority. It would be nice if shielding your speaker cable resolved your issue, so you could keep enjoying your Marantz amp...

Can I have a referral please

If it was the cable, how come that other speakers connected with the same cables do not hum?