Digital Interconnects

[the record spot]

Been there, done that, minor and subtle changes at best...in my experience and to my ears.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Thompsonuxb enjoys trolling on this subject, don't feed him.

C'mon Benlaw...I dare you....no, I double dare you, bring your interconnects, I'll bring mine. It'll settle this thing once and for all. This is a serious challenge not trolling

 

[the record spot]

No, there's an element of aggressiveness, or something not far off it. The manner in which the "challenge" comes out is hardly unbiased, neutral or the like - "I'll settle this thing once and for all". What? Opinions? I imagine you've just found a job for life.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Indeed, BNC is/was the way to go and have you ever seen an expensive BNC cable or bling connector?

nope . but I'm sure if BNC was widely used in home hi-fi many would emerge.

Do you know if HDMI corrects these issues, I assume it does? (I've not kept up to date with new developments)

nope again. don't really follow HDMI. as long as HDMI remains AV only digital connection it's of no interest to me.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

No, there's an element of aggressiveness, or something not far off it. The manner in which the "challenge" comes out is hardly unbiased, neutral or the like - "I'll settle this thing once and for all". What? Opinions? I imagine you've just found a job for life.

uhh?

 

[the record spot]

It's pretty simple really - you won't "settle" anything "once and for all". This argument's gone round the houses on any number of internet fora never mind this one. Nothing to settle in the end.

 

[SteveR750]

 

[Thompsonuxb]

It's pretty simple really - you won't "settle" anything "once and for all". This argument's gone round the houses on any number of internet fora never mind this one. Nothing to settle in the end.

And it will keep going round the houses, but if we get together and do such a test then surely there will be some settlement. Even if we take a democratic vote amongst ourselves. As far as this forum is concerned it will be settled. Because we will always have this as a point of reference.

When the topic raises its head again we can then say "ahhh...but in the "Differences in interconnects test" we carried out 29/04/12 in birmingham at Superfi we concluded that......."

 

[the record spot]

"...nobody invited the guys from the Hoffman forum..."

 

[the record spot]

It's pretty simple really - you won't "settle" anything "once and for all". This argument's gone round the houses on any number of internet fora never mind this one. Nothing to settle in the end.

And it will keep going round the houses, but if we get together and do such a test then surely there will be some settlement. Even if we take a democratic vote amongst ourselves. As far as this forum is concerned it will be settled. Because we will always have this as a point of reference.

When the topic raises its head again we can then say "ahhh...but in the "Differences in interconnects test" we carried out 29/04/12 in birmingham at Superfi we concluded that......."

And it wouldn't solve anything - you'd get, what, however many Superfi can hold (assuming they've bought in to the concept - and in the event nobody does hear a difference, whither their sales of cables then...), so ten, twenty? How many people have signed up to this site? Thousands. You'd get a nice day out, a bigger version of the Big Question at best and most people none the wiser.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

It's pretty simple really - you won't "settle" anything "once and for all". This argument's gone round the houses on any number of internet fora never mind this one. Nothing to settle in the end.

And it will keep going round the houses, but if we get together and do such a test then surely there will be some settlement. Even if we take a democratic vote amongst ourselves. As far as this forum is concerned it will be settled. Because we will always have this as a point of reference.

When the topic raises its head again we can then say "ahhh...but in the "Differences in interconnects test" we carried out 29/04/12 in birmingham at Superfi we concluded that......."

And it wouldn't solve anything - you'd get, what, however many Superfi can hold (assuming they've bought in to the concept - and in the event nobody does hear a difference, whither their sales of cables then...), so ten, twenty? How many people have signed up to this site? Thousands. You'd get a nice day out, a bigger version of the Big Question at best and most people none the wiser.

lol..... do I smell chicken?

Forget excuses, do the test, maybe others could organise their own tests closer to home, I know people will hear differences, I'd do the test I am not afraid.....

 

[Overdose]

It occurs to me that more chat about hifi goes on than actual listening to hifi, or rather the music. This thread and countless others like it being the points in question and myself included at the moment, but to get back on topic, what will one more cable listening test reveal that others haven't?

 

[Alec]

I'm not desperately looking for friends...

Hum...

 

[the record spot]

Forget excuses, do the test, maybe others could organise their own tests closer to home, I know people will hear differences, I'd do the test I am not afraid.....

And now you're trying it on with me; don't bother. I don't need to do a test.

As I said, been down that road and am happy with my own conclusions. Minor differences, easily outpaced by shifting speaker positions, changing source components and / or finding better source material. Far, far more rewarding than organising pointless tests and throwing out little playground jibes on an internet forum.

 

[paradiziac]

Indeed, BNC is/was the way to go and have you ever seen an expensive BNC cable or bling connector?

nope . but I'm sure if BNC was widely used in home hi-fi many would emerge.

I have one! My USB converter and DAC both have BNC.

http://ar-t.co/geekspeak.html

The u-byte cable is (apparently) a $200 cable, but it came with my converter. I've never tested just the cable due to the lack of another one with the same connections, but the whole combination of unit+cable sounds very good in the context of my system (transport sensitive DAC). I just think of the unit+cable as a single entity as that's how it was designed.

The points I'd like to make are:

1) SPDIF cables are MEASUREABLY different (as our helpful sceptic mentioned and is detailed in the link above), so it's incorrect to say that for "scientific reasons" there can't possibly be a difference

2) But...it's highly debateable whether these measureable differences are in fact audible in most systems (hence this heated debate!!)

So...digital cables might make a difference, or they might not. Depends on your system, your ears, even...your beliefs about cables (!). No need to prove anything to anyone.

Pay your money and make your choice, be happy with it.

Peace and love...

 

[Ambrose]

OK, I see I have started another argument off here..... sorry folks!

I did receive my Mark Grant coax and had an hour or so last night switching back and forth and so far I cannot report anything conclusive (in my mind). I think I prefer the old coax cable codac and think I maybe hearing differences but...but....I just have no definate opinion yet.......

I will run new cable in for a day and try again as smaller differences tend to be more noticable over a period of time to me.

ON THE GENERAL DISCUSSION ON CABLES I thought I would give my recent thoughts from testing a number of very different RCA interconnects.

Chord Crimson & Chamelon, Nordost Red Dawn, Mark Grant G1500HD and Van Den Hul First ultimate.

Cables (analogue) do sound different and in my experience based upon testing above with a friend in toe in general agreement. Listening level quite loud for reference.

Part of noticing differences I think maybe also be due to there being so many other factors involved which also have a bearing on sound or perceived sound. Of course you cannot magically alter sound to be something vastly different than your other component are exhibiting, however they can allow components to reveal more or accentuate more.

Another post stated this and I tend to agree.

Also, listening over a period of time usually more decisive and so makes ABX testing tricky.

Also having mains noise has affected my system performance I am convinced which maybe why I am hearing more detail than before and perhaps why different RCA cables are sounding different because less noise pollution affecting it.

However, a few differences I subjectively noticed, along with a good friend with good ears as well were around:-

Soundstage bigger on more expensive cables tested. Not having ever heard a good soundstage was something new I discovered so sure I did not imagine it.

Some cables can emphasize bass/mids/treble more or less which may suit one person more or less.

Some cables presented the music more forward into room and so that didn’t sound like coming from the speakers.

To say RCA cables do not affect sound is misleading.

As an example who has tried nordost red dawn interconnect? This has quite individual characteristics and would be a good test example. I would be surprised if most people couldn’t tell the difference between this and another generic interconnect….given used in a well balanced system.

So I am a believer in Analogue Interconnects and also Speaker cable which I have both experimented with to tune the sound of my hifi to personal preference. IE Warm, full, musical and not fatiguing.

On digital I need convincing still and being a logical kinda guy can see how it seems less plausable for a coax cable to affect sound.

These are my opinions and not meant to spark further arguments. I am happy with the money spent and changes it has brought to my hifi system so only person I need to convince is myself, which I have. SO THERE!!

Thanks

Ambrose

 

[visionary]

Good!

Shall we all go and listen to some nice soothing music? :clap:

 

[Ambrose]

I like warm over hard (bright) but would hardly describe my system as soothing. Dynamic and punchy maybe

and quite detailed. Compared similarly with mates arcam CD 192, more dynamic and less subtle with detail. Arcam richer sounding too.

I am quite happy with results.

Each to their own..........

 

[idc]

Cables do make a difference.

Note those who will claim they don't, appear to be the most reluctant to do a simple test such as the one I propose. A controlled enviroment a fixed set of parameters only the cables/interconnects will be changed and we listen. its not even a which one is better test.

And why don't some of you trust what you hear, I mean believing your mind is playing tricks on you if you hear a difference......whats that about?

Regards digital interconnects - fibre optic, copper or silver. the more expensive the cable the purer it will be. Its like diamonds to a degree. why do two stones, same size same weight have different value. considering they are both diamonds. Could it be that one is clearer, purer than the other.

If you can understand that then why is it so hard to believe this will have an affect on an electrical signal passing through it. I am confident in a test such as this you will hear the differnces in cables, both digital and anolog, confident enough to put good money on it....my car tax is due and It could do with a service too.

I'm not desperately looking for friends, but c'mon lets do this settle the argument....I dare you.

I agree cables make a difference. I do not see the point in saying anything else. The real issue is why do they make a difference, with some people, some of the time, in different hifis? Also, why is the reported difference not consistent?

Is your simple test sighted, blind comparison or ABX?

Your analogy with diamonds is a fail because you need to show a link between purety and sound quality. That is where all cable makers fail as whilst many make appeals to their build quality and components, none can show a link between that and sound quality. All they can do is suggest a link, as you have done. That is the rejection of science that I do not like about the way cable companies and cable believers behave.

Why will your test settle the argument? What about all the other sighted, blind comparison and ABX tests that have already been done? Why have they not settled the argument?

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Digital interconnects make more difference than anolog by the nature of the digital signal. Its more precise and less splashy at the top end

I don't really know what that means, but can you provide a link in support?

Provide a link, what for......lol.

If you have access to a digital reciever connect your CD player to it directly with digital/optical coax, compare them to Anolog interconnects and agianst each other and then hand on heart report back and tell the truth......provide a link......indeed.

Hi Thompsonuxb

I use a basic (single) interconnect to transfer digital data between a Yamaha BD-S1900 Blu Ray player (coaxial digital out) > Chord Electronics DSP8000 AV processor.

Btw, for optical connection i use a basic fibre optic cable which i bought at the local market for a £1.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

I know, you keep saying you do......I don't know if you're just cheap or you really don't have that set up...er...set up to really listen to your music.... you have a shop Rick ? lets all go to Ricks shop to do this test.

Hi Thompsonuxb

If i was cheap do you really think i'd buy a DSP8000 at £13k or the matching SPM3005 multichannel power amplifier at £15k :? If i wanted to i could have 'blinged' up these and other components such as a Plinius Hiato, Krell FPB600, etc. with after market cables.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Alec]

Digital interconnects make more difference than anolog by the nature of the digital signal. Its more precise and less splashy at the top end

I don't really know what that means, but can you provide a link in support?

Provide a link, what for......lol.

If you have access to a digital reciever connect your CD player to it directly with digital/optical coax, compare them to Anolog interconnects and agianst each other and then hand on heart report back and tell the truth......provide a link......indeed.

Hi Thompsonuxb

I use a basic (single) interconnect to transfer digital data between a Yamaha BD-S1900 Blu Ray player (coaxial digital out) > Chord Electronics DSP8000 AV processor.

Btw, for optical connection i use a basic fibre optic cable which i bought at the local market for a £1.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

I know, you keep saying you do......I don't know if you're just cheap or you really don't have that set up...er...set up to really listen to your music.... you have a shop Rick ? lets all go to Ricks shop to do this test.

Hi Thompsonuxb

If i was cheap do you really think i'd buy a DSP8000 at £13k or the matching SPM3005 multichannel power amplifier at £15k :? If i wanted to i could have 'blinged' up these and other components such as a Plinius Hiato, Krell FPB600, etc. with after market cables.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Wave it in our face why don't you.

But seriously, the minimum you should be spending on even just the mains cable for that little lot is £500, easy.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Digital interconnects make more difference than anolog by the nature of the digital signal. Its more precise and less splashy at the top end

I don't really know what that means, but can you provide a link in support?

Provide a link, what for......lol.

If you have access to a digital reciever connect your CD player to it directly with digital/optical coax, compare them to Anolog interconnects and agianst each other and then hand on heart report back and tell the truth......provide a link......indeed.

Hi Thompsonuxb

I use a basic (single) interconnect to transfer digital data between a Yamaha BD-S1900 Blu Ray player (coaxial digital out) > Chord Electronics DSP8000 AV processor.

Btw, for optical connection i use a basic fibre optic cable which i bought at the local market for a £1.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

I know, you keep saying you do......I don't know if you're just cheap or you really don't have that set up...er...set up to really listen to your music.... you have a shop Rick ? lets all go to Ricks shop to do this test.

Hi Thompsonuxb

If i was cheap do you really think i'd buy a DSP8000 at £13k or the matching SPM3005 multichannel power amplifier at £15k :? If i wanted to i could have 'blinged' up these and other components such as a Plinius Hiato, Krell FPB600, etc. with after market cables.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Wave it in our face why don't you.

But seriously, the minimum you should be spending on even just the mains cable for that little lot is £500, easy.

Hi Alec

Absolutely no intention to.

No thanks. The standard mains cables supplied with the DSP8000 and SPM3005 are good enough as these main cables enable the DSP8000 and SPM3005 to breathe

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[John Duncan]

Presumably you paid trade anyway, which - if another thread is to be believed - means tuppence ha'penny?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

OK, I see I have started another argument off here..... sorry folks!

I did receive my Mark Grant coax and had an hour or so last night switching back and forth and so far I cannot report anything conclusive (in my mind). I think I prefer the old coax cable codac and think I maybe hearing differences but...but....I just have no definate opinion yet.......

I will run new cable in for a day and try again as smaller differences tend to be more noticable over a period of time to me.

ON THE GENERAL DISCUSSION ON CABLES I thought I would give my recent thoughts from testing a number of very different RCA interconnects.

Chord Crimson & Chamelon, Nordost Red Dawn, Mark Grant G1500HD and Van Den Hul First ultimate.

Cables (analogue) do sound different and in my experience based upon testing above with a friend in toe in general agreement. Listening level quite loud for reference.

Part of noticing differences I think maybe also be due to there being so many other factors involved which also have a bearing on sound or perceived sound. Of course you cannot magically alter sound to be something vastly different than your other component are exhibiting, however they can allow components to reveal more or accentuate more.

Another post stated this and I tend to agree.

Also, listening over a period of time usually more decisive and so makes ABX testing tricky.

Also having mains noise has affected my system performance I am convinced which maybe why I am hearing more detail than before and perhaps why different RCA cables are sounding different because less noise pollution affecting it.

However, a few differences I subjectively noticed, along with a good friend with good ears as well were around:-

Soundstage bigger on more expensive cables tested. Not having ever heard a good soundstage was something new I discovered so sure I did not imagine it.

Some cables can emphasize bass/mids/treble more or less which may suit one person more or less.

Some cables presented the music more forward into room and so that didn’t sound like coming from the speakers.

To say RCA cables do not affect sound is misleading.

As an example who has tried nordost red dawn interconnect? This has quite individual characteristics and would be a good test example. I would be surprised if most people couldn’t tell the difference between this and another generic interconnect….given used in a well balanced system.

So I am a believer in Analogue Interconnects and also Speaker cable which I have both experimented with to tune the sound of my hifi to personal preference. IE Warm, full, musical and not fatiguing.

On digital I need convincing still and being a logical kinda guy can see how it seems less plausable for a coax cable to affect sound.

These are my opinions and not meant to spark further arguments. I am happy with the money spent and changes it has brought to my hifi system so only person I need to convince is myself, which I have. SO THERE!!

Thanks

Ambrose

Sorry....yeah right, you fool no one......

thats a good post though +1..... bar the last bit ref digital coax.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Cables do make a difference.

Note those who will claim they don't, appear to be the most reluctant to do a simple test such as the one I propose. A controlled enviroment a fixed set of parameters only the cables/interconnects will be changed and we listen. its not even a which one is better test.

And why don't some of you trust what you hear, I mean believing your mind is playing tricks on you if you hear a difference......whats that about?

Regards digital interconnects - fibre optic, copper or silver. the more expensive the cable the purer it will be. Its like diamonds to a degree. why do two stones, same size same weight have different value. considering they are both diamonds. Could it be that one is clearer, purer than the other.

If you can understand that then why is it so hard to believe this will have an affect on an electrical signal passing through it. I am confident in a test such as this you will hear the differnces in cables, both digital and anolog, confident enough to put good money on it....my car tax is due and It could do with a service too.

I'm not desperately looking for friends, but c'mon lets do this settle the argument....I dare you.

I agree cables make a difference. I do not see the point in saying anything else. The real issue is why do they make a difference, with some people, some of the time, in different hifis? Also, why is the reported difference not consistent?

Is your simple test sighted, blind comparison or ABX?

Your analogy with diamonds is a fail because you need to show a link between purety and sound quality. That is where all cable makers fail as whilst many make appeals to their build quality and components, none can show a link between that and sound quality. All they can do is suggest a link, as you have done. That is the rejection of science that I do not like about the way cable companies and cable believers behave.

Why will your test settle the argument? What about all the other sighted, blind comparison and ABX tests that have already been done? Why have they not settled the argument?

The test would have been any how they wanted, eyes open or closed, makes no odds, differences would be heard.

Regards digital coax, take optical, you know anything about optical fibre, you understand frequencies/wavelengths the clarity of the medium makes a difference, like shinning light through a prism or a pain of glass one clear one tinted, less light or coloured light (wavelengths) than the clear glass same as copper, silver.

what leaves your cd and goes through the amp, what ever is presented to the speaker is affected.