Differences in sound between Hi-Fi brand

[Vladimir]

Fidelity is determined by measurements done with tools that extend beyond all abilities of human senses. Fun is determined by you and only you with your own brain, hormones, life experience, aspirations, preferences etc. Things get mixed up when fidelity is measured with flawed human senses and then weighed against how much fun it is to you and then saying if I like it, it must be high fidelity. No. High fidelity must apply to everyone, not just you. The world is not limited by your flawed senses and experiences, oh beloved subjectivist. Must I remind people who have better hearing, pitch and even musicians think Bose is amazing, simply because this is where their reference ends? Being subjective means replacing everyones reality with your own and then telling them they should abide by it. Having no firm standards for performance opens the door for manipulation and deceit, and in Hi-Fi that door is off its hinges since the 80's.

If you don't care if it's high fidelity by measured data, fine, focus on the fun bit. You have the right if you have the money. However, you don't get to tell me the valve amp you think is amazing is high fidelity and denying me the right to question that statement using measured data, simply because I don't own the amp. To argue how fun it is for me vs you, we then both need to own the unit and compare. High fidelity aka high performance is the field of objective data, despite what manufacturers, marketeers and their docile consumers prefer to believe. You don't get to call your tuned up Citroen Saxo a Formula 1 car because you personally find it scary and fun to drive.

And yes, I'm high on contact spray. End rant.

 

[Coll]

I have not read all the posts but my opinion is that any piece of equipment should not have a house sound it should reproduce without adding or changing the source material which of course may not be that good anyway.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Land Rover was a seperate company, talking about the Rover K series engine the head gasket was almost part of the service schedule!

 

[tonky]

.

 

[Vladimir]

Kahmm. I used half a large can of servisol to clean my old Kenwood KA-9X. Amazingly the bloody thing measures only 0.65mV DC offset on its terminals after 35 years of service. *shok* The spray got me a headache so why not share it with my fellow audiophiles? *wacko*

 

[Helmut80]

When it comes to hifi and cars, the obvious answer is a 911 with Burmester.

 

[iQ Speakers]

When it comes to hifi and cars, the obvious answer is a 911 with Burmester.

I'm with you on that one!

 

[CnoEvil]

Fidelity is determined by measurements done with tools that extend beyond all abilities of human senses.

How close to having "perfect measurements" does a component have to get before it's considered "Hi-Fidelity"?

Should all components that might be considered as being Hi-Fidelity, sound the same?

Can you tell exactly how a component will sound, simply by looking at how it measures?

Is it possible to know exactly how a recording was intended to sound, if you weren't there when it was recorded?...and how neutral was the equipment/speakers used. PMC/ATC/B&W Diamond/Kef Ref etc all sound different, so which has the most fidelity?

Given the effect of a room, is it even sensible to worry about near-perfect fidelity?

 

[Infiniteloop]

Fidelity is determined by measurements done with tools that extend beyond all abilities of human senses.

How close to having "perfect measurements" does a component have to get before it's considered "Hi-Fidelity"?

Should all components that might be considered as being Hi-Fidelity, sound the same?

Can you tell exactly how a component will sound, simply by looking at how it measures?

Is it possible to know exactly how a recording was intended to sound, if you weren't there when it was recorded?...and how neutral was the equipment/speakers used. PMC/ATC/B&W Diamond/Kef Ref etc all sound different, so which has the most fidelity?

Given the effect of a room, is it even sensible to worry about near-perfect fidelity?

Amen Brother.

Add to that the sound signature of the microphones used to record the sound, the equipment used in recording it and mixing it, and the sound preference of the ears of the sound engineer.

 

[CnoEvil]

We are VERY VERY VERY FAR AWAY from anything perfect, simply because of the limitation of loudspeakers.

Exactly; which makes the whole thing nothing more than an interesting academic excercise....and why one should, at the end of the day, be guided by what stirs the soul.

 

[Vladimir]

How close to having "perfect measurements" does a component have to get before it's considered "Hi-Fidelity"?

To the point where humans can't distinguish the benefits of further improvements in a double blind test. Digital audio and SS amplification have crossed that threshold.

Should all components that might be considered as being Hi-Fidelity, sound the same?

Ideally yes, to the point where they all sound exactly the same as the sound coming out of the mixing board. What happens in the studio is not the concern of hi-fi audio, but pro audio. We only aspire to reproduce what they made without any deviations.

Can you tell exactly how a component will sound, simply by looking at how it measures?

In conjugation with my first answer, transducers no, digital sources and SS amplifiers yes. Exceptions may apply, not all manufacturers like designing accurate gear. Selling a variation can yield more profit than selling the real thing everyone else sells.

Measurements will give you incredible insight, manufacturer declared specification in brochures and manuals, not so much. Most of what is published is deceitful representation of the actual performance capabilities. They don't lie per se, they are selective what to publish and what not. If they publish everything, you would have very good insight what to expect to hear.

Is it possible to know exactly how a recording was intended to sound, if you weren't there when it was recorded?...and how neutral was the equipment/speakers used. PMC/ATC/B&W Diamond/Kef Ref etc all sound different, so which has the most fidelity?

Only thing an audiophile needs to aspire for is exact reproduction of the signal recorded on the media, with the technology at hand. In 1965 that media was vinyl, with all its flaws that was high fidelity of the time. The audiophile would set up a system that reproduces the signal recorded on the vinyl record (all 11 bits of glory) to the best abilities of the technology at that period (valve amps, large boxy speakers). It's none of our business what goes on in the studio. Our chain begins from the recorded media.

How to make sure Mile's trumpet in KOB (1959) sounds exactly the same through your speakers in your living room? The speaker designer has two choices, invent a time machine or use measurements. Let's say he chose the later, he now needs to play signals through speakers and record them, then compare to the original waveform to what extent they deviate from the original. If there is no deviation, you can be sure Mile's trumpet is 100% perfectly reproduced. In order to bring you Cno closer to Miles engineering needs to improve not only building materials and techniques, but most of all measuring tools and methods. One of the most effective ones is that damned hated DBT.

How should a banker, dentist or car salesman know if the speakers he buys can give him Miles and not a version of him? Simple. Invent a time machine or audition by proximity.

Many audiophiles preffer buying studio monitors because they assume professionals in the studio know what a trumpet sounds through their monitors and inside the recording booth, which they do. So if a studio monitor is good for the professional, it must be very close to the real thing, more or less. This is why B&W installs their flagship speakers in Abbey Roads Studio, or Pioneer has it's hi-fi components "Tuned by Air Studio London". There is no way for us bankers, dentists, designers and car mechanics to have such a close reference like audio professionals. Yes, you can go to concerts, bars etc and listen to live music, but that is again a proximity. You will never know how Miles sounds exactly. You have to trust the professionals they chose the equipment that comes closest to the real deal with the current technology at hand. That trust is what made BBC and JBL pro audio gear an institution in the world of hi-fi.

WHF magazin sole raison d'etre is to provide the service of audition by proximity. The audition room must cost 1 million pounds to affirm their pro credentials, not because Kethan needs a 1 mil room to recognize good speakers from duds.

Given the effect of a room, is it even sensible to worry about near-perfect fidelity?

We are VERY VERY VERY FAR AWAY from anything perfect, simply because of the limitation of loudspeakers. Stereo is what mono was when it was introduced, simply outdated and limited. The future is in surround sound to create the enveloping 3D, you are there sound that stereo recording and two speakers simply cannot. If you have the time listen to this podcast.

 

[Vladimir]

We are VERY VERY VERY FAR AWAY from anything perfect, simply because of the limitation of loudspeakers.

Exactly; which makes the whole thing nothing more than an interesting academic excercise....and why one should, at the end of the day, be guided by what stirs the soul.

Bose may stir your soul, but it still isn't high fidelity by objective standards.

People who buy cheap 20 inch woofers with silkscreening on the cone saying "XXXPLODEEE!!!" for their cars, they have fun. People who buy expensive home hi-fi speakers with "Reference" badges, aim at high fidelity and are serious enough to come to forums and argue with strangers about their speakers performance. You don't get to be both.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Perfect answer, we hear something we like it, we buy it. We hear something, we look at the figures in the spec, we buy it. But we learn what possibly makes us think it sounds good and buy it. I suppose it all depend on what we are like as a person.

 

[CnoEvil]

Bose may stir your soul, but it still isn't high fidelity by objective standards.

People who buy cheap 20 inch woofers with silkscreening on the cone saying "XXXPLODEEE!!!" for their cars, they have fun. People who buy expensive home hi-fi speakers with "Reference" badges, aim at high fidelity and are serious enough to come to forums and argue with strangers about their speakers performance. You don't get to be both.

To be pedantic, it's the music that stirs the soul and it's the equipment that lets it happen...to a greater or lesser degree. What equipment you think is good, depends on what you have heard in the past....and changes, as you hear "better".

 

[iQ Speakers]

Yes, indeed never a truer sentence!

 

[Vladimir]

 

[Covenanter]

When it comes to hifi and cars, the obvious answer is a 911 with Burmester.

I've just switched from a sports car to a big Lexus as I am now to old and stiff to get in and out of the former. The Lexus has a Mark Levinson audio system and I have to say that allied to the near silence of the Lexus it is by a very long distance the best sound I have ever heard in a car.

Chris

 

[tonky]

you can still get stiff!

 

[iQ Speakers]

Yep know that feeling.

 

[Andrewjvt]

And yes, I'm high on contact spray. End rant.
[/quote]
Can you send me some?

 

[Andrewjvt]

Are we all saying that expensive hifi is not enjoyable?
Or true hifi is not about fun

I really am asking as im saving for an expensive hegel h160 and i currently have a roksan kandy. Now based on the comments about hegel being neutral and roksan being bold. I think i like bold

But when i tested the hegel it blew the socks off the roksan

Im confused help
Ps dont use cars to explain im a qualified motor mechanic, have raced and was a test driver for bmw.

 

[drummerman]

Are we all saying that expensive hifi is not enjoyable?

Certainly not.

 

[jerryapril]

 

[Andrewjvt]

Are we all saying that expensive hifi is not enjoyable?

Certainly not.

I seriously am worried to spend loads of cash on something more boring than what i had already

but as always you are the voice of reason between scientists and homeopaths ha

In your words what do you get for extra money or the more you upgrade/spend?

 

[Vladimir]

I really am asking as im saving for an expensive hegel h160 and i currently have a roksan kandy. Now based on the comments about hegel being neutral and roksan being bold. I think i like bold

You being a professional car tech is good in this instance. You don't have to be an electronics engineer, just take off the lid on both amps and let me know if one seems 'bolder' than the other.