Diasappointed with Naim Supernait and Spendor A5 combination

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Hi,

For about a year ago i've bougth a Naim Supernait amp to combine with Spendor A5 speakers instead of a Arcam A85. As player I use the Arcam dV88 wich is connected to the Dac of the SN. Love the prat and control of the SN. On the other hand i don't like the harsness in the mid-high and high. My room is L-shaped (living room and kitchen) with a total lenght of 8,5 meters. The living room itself is 5 x 5 meters. The speakers are placed at/near the longest wall. Reggae is the music I play for about 90% of the time. Is it the amp to blame? Or ar there any other suggestions?

Some acoustic panels to damp the room a bit? Do a bit of reading on the subject of room acoustics to get some ideas.

If a system that costs several thousand pounds sounds off, something must be very wrong indeed and one would like to think it isn't the equipment.

I'm with you!

To build a good stereo kit need 3 MAJOR rules ( even before sinergy of the equipment):

Good speakers ( they are)

Good amp ( you have)

Room acoustic ( i think you have to do some thing about this point)

You can change what ever you want, spend your money around. The differences will be audible but you won't put a stop to the problem.

 

[Overdose]

I could accept a differing in opinion regarding presentation, but the word 'harsh' to me implies some sort of deficiency or defect. This is not a mini system costing less than a few hundred pounds, for which there might be many shortcomings, but something rather more expensive and presumably 'better'.

Assuming the system is at fault, if the speakers are not to blame and reading various reviews would suggest that they are not, then it must be the amp. If the amp is the problem, then there is something wrong with it or its design to create a harshness in the presentation. Amps really shouldn't have that much effect on sound presentation, they should merely amplify a signal and not distort or colour it.

My guess is the acoustics of the room playing up. Get this right and even the relatively cheap mini system would sound fine.

Harsh is subjective, what harsh means to people is subjective and even describing sound is problematical and tainted with personal bias....to some it can mean bright, or to others it can mean forward or even neutral and analytical.

My guess is the mixture of the amp/speakers/room is not to the OPs taste. The problem is, it's not always easy to acoustically treat a room if it's rented, or a family area.....so the kit often has to be tailored to fit the situation and not the other way round.

Assuming an audition of the equipment took place, we can also assume that the OP was happy with his choice at the time. The only change since the audition is the new location of the kit. This is now over to the OP to decide on the next move. All the possible solutions are now covered.

DIY acoustic panels are not too difficult to make and bought panels are not too expensive, particularly when compared to the OPs system.

 

[CnoEvil]

Assuming an audition of the equipment took place, we can also assume that the OP was happy with his choice at the time. The only change since the audition is the new location of the kit. This is now over to the OP to decide on the next move. All the possible solutions are now covered.

The OP didn't hear the two components together before purchase.

The Naim was demoed with with Harbeth SHL5 & 30; the Spendors with an Arcam A38 (his previous amp) and CA 840 (in a different room).

The above info led me into giving the advice that I did.

 

[Overdose]

Assuming an audition of the equipment took place, we can also assume that the OP was happy with his choice at the time. The only change since the audition is the new location of the kit. This is now over to the OP to decide on the next move. All the possible solutions are now covered.

The OP didn't hear the two components together before purchase.

The Naim was demoed with with Harbeth SHL5 & 30; the Spendors with an Arcam A38 (his previous amp) and CA 840 (in a different room).

The above info led me into giving the advice that I did.

Yes, I missed that, sorry.

Still looking more like acoustics though, or a dodgy amp. I just don't think I'd be chasing the mythical beast named 'synergy' and spending yet more money on equipment just yet. Get the room checked out first I say.

 

[CnoEvil]

Still looking more like acoustics though, or a dodgy amp. I just don't think I'd be chasing the mythical beast named 'synergy' and spending yet more money on equipment just yet. Get the room checked out first I say.

The problem is, I believe he enjoyed the Spendors with his old Arcam A38 and now defunct CD192.....so it is possible!

 

[Anonymous]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningless buzz word.

 

[SteveR750]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningless buzz word.

Phase shift, another buzz word too?

Bit of an over generalisation this!

 

[plastic penguin]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningless buzz word.

Synergy, in my book, is where two or more components has a sonic chemistry. So if a £1500 amp and a £500 speaker, both bright, in a refelective room, there would not be a synergy as the sound would be cloying. Whereas a bright amp and neutral/smooth speakers in a well damped room would smooth off any nasties. To me, that's synergy.

And yes, I have experienced this.

 

[Overdose]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningless buzz word.

It's not quite that simple though, with manufacturers apparently creating a house sound to their equipment It might be neccessary to counter any shortcomings of one piece of equipment with a complimentary set of attributes of another.

Synergy exist all right, but perhaps the biggest components are the room and the speakers. I don't think an amp adds to the situation uless it is by design or error. It should merely get out of the way. That is not to say that all amps do this of course, some are obviously better than others in staying incognito.

 

[Craig M.]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningless buzz word.

It's not quite that simple though, with manufacturers apparently creating a house sound to their equipment...

You should've taken Mr. Harbeth up on his offer. Despite all the statements about amplifier 'sound', NOT ONE audiophile (or normal person) took him up on his challenge, I found that really strange.

If you're not sure of the details of his amplifier challenge this was the meat of it: "If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.

I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!"

So, given just about every modern solid state amp will measure flat through the frequency range, he really did seem confident that as long as an amp isn't clipping they will all 'sound' the same. Of course, these tests have been carried out in the past and are well documented.

The A5s (nice speakers) are 85db/w iirc, maybe the amp is clipping - assuming neither has an actual fault.

 

[Overdose]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningless buzz word.

It's not quite that simple though, with manufacturers apparently creating a house sound to their equipment...

You should've taken Mr. Harbeth up on his offer. Despite all the statements about amplifier 'sound', NOT ONE audiophile (or normal person) took him up on his challenge, I found that really strange.

If you're not sure of the details of his amplifier challenge this was the meat of it: "If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.

I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!"

So, given just about every modern solid state amp will measure flat through the frequency range, he really did seem confident that as long as an amp isn't clipping they will all 'sound' the same. Of course, these tests have been carried out in the past and are well documented.

The A5s (nice speakers) are 85db/w iirc, maybe the amp is clipping - assuming neither has an actual fault.

Like I said, room acoustics or a dodgy amp.

And does your quote not imply that there are differences in frequency responses between amps?

 

[jaxwired]

If you're not sure of the details of his amplifier challenge this was the meat of it: "If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.

I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!"

What a jack a$$. Not you Craig, Shaw.

 

[gregvet]

There's no such thing as "synergy" between amp and speakers, the amp is either powerful enough to drive them satisfactorily, or it isn't.

Synergy - in the context of HiFi - is just a meaningleYou should've taken Mr. Harbeth up on his offer. Despite all the statements about amplifier 'sound', NOT ONE audiophile (or normal person) took him up on his challenge, I found that really strange.

If you're not sure of the details of his amplifier challenge this was the meat of it: "If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.

I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!"

So, given just about every modern solid state amp will measure flat through the frequency range, he really did seem confident that as long as an amp isn't clipping they will all 'sound' the same. Of course, these tests have been carried out in the past and are well documented.

The A5s (nice speakers) are 85db/w iirc, maybe the amp is clipping - assuming neither has an actual fault.

A naim amp then a Cyrus amp through the same speakers. Is anyone seriously saying they hear no difference?

If the audible differences are just different frequency responses then surely the harbeth challenge is saying 'you won't be able to hear the differences between two amps once they have been eq'd to sound the same' which is kind of obvious, surely?

The point being that out of the box, there are differences.

 

[chebby]

Lots of people are sure of their free Harbeths it seems.

Got to be worth proving A.Shaw wrong, given what you could sell them for

 

[gregvet]

Lots of people are sure of their free Harbeths it seems.

Got to be worth proving A.Shaw wrong, given what you could sell them for

Really chebby?

Read the responses again, I don't think anyone has suggested that the harbeth test is a forgone conclusion, or even possible.

Certainly not me, if you actually read my post

 

[Sospri]

This surprises me, as I have a Naim Supernait and Spendor SA1s

I listen to mainly classical music and it reproduces the whole range of a symphony orchestra brilliantly,

especially violins, I have had this combination for a while now, and see no reason to change.......

 

[jjbomber]

Have you tried adding a Hi-Cap or a Supercap to the amp? This will really bring out the bass. I would suggest that you borrow one from a dealer to audition for a week. If it doesn't work, then fine. I would try this first before trading either part of your system. If you cannot borrow one to demo, then try getting a second hand one. If it doesn't suit your needs, you can then sell it on without losing too much.

 

[Anonymous]

Have you tried adding a Hi-Cap or a Supercap to the amp? This will really bring out the bass. I would suggest that you borrow one from a dealer to audition for a week. If it doesn't work, then fine. I would try this first before trading either part of your system. If you cannot borrow one to demo, then try getting a second hand one. If it doesn't suit your needs, you can then sell it on without losing too much.

No, I didn't. But is not the bass that's the problem. It's the high or/and mid-high. Or do you think the cap's are also worth trying for that matter?

 

[Anonymous]

A naim amp then a Cyrus amp through the same speakers. Is anyone seriously saying they hear no difference?

If the audible differences are just different frequency responses then surely the harbeth challenge is saying 'you won't be able to hear the differences between two amps once they have been eq'd to sound the same' which is kind of obvious, surely?

The point being that out of the box, there are differences.

A couple of Dutch Forum Hifi members did one or two blind-tests with a self-made-, a surround-, a Sony TA-FE370- and a "high-end"amplifier wich name i can't remember. Speakers were Blumenhofers. They only leveled the output so there were no differences between them in soundlevel. None of the participants were able to here any differences. Had lots of fun by reading the fussing and fighting between the believers and non-believers on the forum tought.

 

[Overdose]

Have you tried adding a Hi-Cap or a Supercap to the amp? This will really bring out the bass. I would suggest that you borrow one from a dealer to audition for a week. If it doesn't work, then fine. I would try this first before trading either part of your system. If you cannot borrow one to demo, then try getting a second hand one. If it doesn't suit your needs, you can then sell it on without losing too much.

No, I didn't. But is not the bass that's the problem. It's the high or/and mid-high. Or do you think the cap's are also worth trying for that matter?

If you consider that the article regarding differences between amps is accurate, then power supplies won't make any difference will they? Save your cash, as it would seem that you've already spent too much.

 

[Anonymous]

If you consider that the article regarding differences between amps is accurate, then power supplies won't make any difference will they?

Nope. that's not what i've said. My ears heard differences when I demoed the SN/Harbeth combo with and without Hicap. Or my brains fooled me.

Save your cash, as it would seem that you've already spent too much.

Spending an amount of money on audio equipement, whatever that amount may be, is for everybody different in terms of many, to many or less. Don't worry. Do you have some advice for me instead?

 

[Overdose]

Save your cash, as it would seem that you've already spent too much.

Spending an amount of money on audio equipement, whatever that amount may be, is for everybody different in terms of many, to many or less. Don't worry. Do you have some advice for me instead?

If you truly believe that a £2700 amp does not have a good enough internal PSU and that at least another £1200 needs to be spent to make the amplifier work properly, then no, I don't have any advice that would be of any worth to you.

 

[jaxwired]

A couple of Dutch Forum Hifi members did one or two blind-tests with a self-made-, a surround-, a Sony TA-FE370- and a "high-end"amplifier wich name i can't remember. Speakers were Blumenhofers. They only leveled the output so there were no differences between them in soundlevel. None of the participants were able to here any differences. Had lots of fun by reading the fussing and fighting between the believers and non-believers on the forum tought.

Oh no, you mean all amps actually sound the same!

Read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell and you will be educated on how little we understand about the brain. People fail A/B test with amps, big deal. What that proves is that people can't pass that test. Proves nothing about the hifi amps. Anyone that uses this type of information to ignore amplifier importance in creating a great hifi is doomed to have mediocre sound. A shame for people that care.

 

[Overdose]

To be honest, if you cannot hear any difference and cannot pass said AB test, does it actually matter what you are listening to if it makes you happy? And as for mediocre sound, if it's indistinguishable from better than mediocre in a blind test, what is everyone spending a whole lot of extra cash for?

I'm not convinced the OP knows what he wants anyway. Seems a few too many contradictions to me.

 

[Electro]

To be honest, if you cannot hear any difference and cannot pass said AB test, does it actually matter what you are listening to if it makes you happy? And as for mediocre sound, if it's indistinguishable from better than mediocre in a blind test, what is everyone spending a whole lot of extra cash for?

I'm not convinced the OP knows what he wants anyway. Seems a few too many contradictions to me.

Very true !

This is probably the most common reason why so many people are unhappy with their systems IMHO .

The only solution is to listen to as many different types of system and equipment as possible at dealers, HiFi shows and other peoples systems until you know what aim for .

Once you have established what you really want it is just a matter of finding a way to own it