davidf@LAC

[Frank Harvey]

Not really but had to start somewhere. *scratch_one-s_head**mosking*

Pro-ject Classic, Rega RP6 and Xperience SB. Like to hear the ClearAudio Concept MM TT but there's no dealers who stock this item without covering a lot of tarmac.

The Concept is a strong contender. I've done demos with the Clearaudio alongside Michell, Project, and Rega at that price point, and the Clearaudio stood out to me to sound more like a high end turntable - to me, the MM cart that comes packaged with it, and the overall sound, seemed more like what you'd expect from a deck using a moving coil cartridge. The Project was the closest in tonal balance and overall sound, but just didn't quite have the delicacy and finesse the Concept had, which really stood out fro the bunch. I haven't heard a Rega with a different cart, which would be interesting.

Where would be your nearest dealer? I don't want you to reveal your whereabouts.

 

[plastic penguin]

Not really but had to start somewhere. *scratch_one-s_head**mosking*

Pro-ject Classic, Rega RP6 and Xperience SB. Like to hear the ClearAudio Concept MM TT but there's no dealers who stock this item without covering a lot of tarmac.

The Concept is a strong contender. I've done demos with the Clearaudio alongside Michell, Project, and Rega at that price point, and the Clearaudio stood out to me to sound more like a high end turntable - to me, the MM cart that comes packaged with it, and the overall sound, seemed more like what you'd expect from a deck using a moving coil cartridge. The Project was the closest in tonal balance and overall sound, but just didn't quite have the delicacy and finesse the Concept had, which really stood out fro the bunch. I haven't heard a Rega with a different cart, which would be interesting.

Where would be your nearest dealer? I don't want you to reveal your whereabouts.

Interesting about your views on the ClearAudio.

I live about 4 miles south of the notorious M25. So Guildford, Epsom, Woking and Kingston are the nearest towns with hi-fi shops.

 

[Gazzip]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Al ears]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

Oh dear, never discount a Gyrodec, you know you need one.... and as for that Xtension, well.....

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department.

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

 

[Freddy58]

Nice to see you back, Frank *biggrin*

 

[plastic penguin]

Nice to see you back, Frank *biggrin*

Oh stop it, Rodders. *mosking*

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

Forgive we but phonograph stage were you referring to? Saves me trudging back through this thread.

Haven't really thought about one as the original plan was a table up to max of £1000 and use the in-built jobbie. Not sure if a 2k + TT (RRP) would be THAT overkill.

 

[Al ears]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

They don't really, you get what you pay for, well constructed turntables will last a lifetime others are cheap and potentially throw-away. There's little point of buying cheap and then potentially spending a fortune trying to 'upgrade' it.

Forgive we but which phono stage were you referring to? Saves me trudging back through this thread.

 

[Al ears]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

Forgive we but phonograph stage were you referring to? Saves me trudging back through this thread.

Haven't really thought about one as the original plan was a table up to max of £1000 and use the in-built jobbie. Not sure if a 2k + TT (RRP) would be THAT overkill.

Is the built in job by MM or MM and MC? The MM should be good enough for a wide range of cartridges.

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

Forgive we but phonograph stage were you referring to? Saves me trudging back through this thread.

Haven't really thought about one as the original plan was a table up to max of £1000 and use the in-built jobbie. Not sure if a 2k + TT (RRP) would be THAT overkill.

Is the built in job by MM or MM and MC? The MM should be good enough for a wide range of cartridges.

Switchable (MM & MC)

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Forgive me for jumping in on the subject of TTs

I myself fancy a pro Ject classic...... but see an episode of the gadget show where they compared 3 different TTs 1. £299. 2. £1000 , 3. £15000 .

the £15000 was the winner and second place was the £1000 TT and the cheapest one was rubbish now this episode of the show has kind of stopped me in getting a TT as I can not afford £15000 for a TT .

so I get the idea of you get what you pay for but £15000 is there any truth about price is everything in sound quality ?

Now going back to the Pro Ject can it sound good with say a £1000 cart onboard ? And my amp does both kinds of cart MM / MC

 

[Al ears]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

Forgive we but phonograph stage were you referring to? Saves me trudging back through this thread.

Haven't really thought about one as the original plan was a table up to max of £1000 and use the in-built jobbie. Not sure if a 2k + TT (RRP) would be THAT overkill.

Is the built in job by MM or MM and MC? The MM should be good enough for a wide range of cartridges.

Switchable (MM & MC)

Right, some of the integrated MC phono stages I know have difficulties with really low-output MC cartridges but if sticking to MM, which is advisable up to a certain price point, should not pose any problems.

 

[Gazzip]

Forgive me for jumping in on the subject of TTs

I myself fancy a pro Ject classic...... but see an episode of the gadget show where they compared 3 different TTs 1. £299. 2. £1000 , 3. £15000 .

the £15000 was the winner and second place was the £1000 TT and the cheapest one was rubbish now this episode of the show has kind of stopped me in getting a TT as I can not afford £15000 for a TT .

so I get the idea of you get what you pay for but £15000 is there any truth about price is everything in sound quality ?

Now going back to the Pro Ject can it sound good with say a £1000 cart onboard ? And my amp does both kinds of cart MM / MC

IMO if you stick an expensive cartridge or arm on to a crap TT then you are only going to further expose how crap the TT is. With a TT you must first eliminate noise/rumble/vibration/speed variation before trying to extract more detail...

 

[Blacksabbath25]

This is what I can not get my head round

when I was a kid and I listened to my dads TT it sounded lovely and warm and detailed but my dad never spent a great deal of money on the TT .

How come they cost a fortune now I just do not understand I thought £1000 on a TT is being a little over the top but understand that up to date construction knocks cost up

 

[Gazzip]

This is what I can not get my head round

when I was a kid and I listened to my dads TT it sounded lovely and warm and detailed but my dad never spent a great deal of money on the TT .

How come they cost a fortune now I just do not understand I thought £1000 on a TT is being a little over the top but understand that up to date construction knocks cost up

Great turntables do not have to cost £1000's. I had a £320 Pro-Ject Carbon Debut before I owned the Xtension, which sounded fan-bleeding-tastic.

However as with all things in this hobby there is a law of diminishing returns. My Xtension with Cadenza black cartridge cost 10 times the Debut with a 2M Red cartridge. Does it sound 10 times as good? Of course not. Does it sound significantly better? Yes it does.

There is an economic limit to how low you can go with a mechanical device before the sonic wheels come off, and there are some products out there which tread the wrong side of that line.

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome back David. Hopefully now people will stop calling you Frank. *unknw*

I only started up the thread to get some impartial advice on turntables, as I'm looking upgrade the Xpression. Heard a few of the big names around £600-£1000 budget and although good I wasn't over impressed. The only caveat to that is I haven't heard any at home on my system. Any pointers, though, would be appreciated.

Cheers, PP

Can you stretch your budget a little PP? There is an ex-demo Xtension 10 on eBay, listed by McKenzie Hi-Fi in Wellingborough, North Hants. A lovely one in Mahogany... It is on fleabay at £1650 so you can guarantee getting at least £200 knocked off that on the basis of the seller's fees avoided (10% eBay and 3.5% PayPal) if you buy it direct from McKenzie's in cash, and that's before you've haggled!

I have one myself and when I did the demo against much more expensive TT's from the likes of Avid it beat them all hands down for sheer musicality. It would be a BIG step up from the Xpression.

Edit - It's worth buying just for the box it comes in. Well I say box - it actually comes in a custom made MDF crate strapped to a timber pallet!

I would love one, gazzip. Alas, I'm still so happy with the Pulse, I fear the Xtensions will be a massive overkill. I'm not going to upgrade my current amp in the foreseeable, even after six and half years of ownership... it's still a hoot to listen to. I've discounted the Gyrodec for the same reason.

Thanks anyway.

There's no such thing as overkill in the Turntables department[/b].

P.S. Haggling is good as Xmas is coming apparently.

Can you explain how TT's differ from other sources. Al? Until very recently, I've not dem'd any turntables for the past decade.

If I was to up the budget to Gyrodec or the Xtension 9, wouldn't I need a fruitier phono stage?

Forgive we but phonograph stage were you referring to? Saves me trudging back through this thread.

Haven't really thought about one as the original plan was a table up to max of £1000 and use the in-built jobbie. Not sure if a 2k + TT (RRP) would be THAT overkill.

Is the built in job by MM or MM and MC? The MM should be good enough for a wide range of cartridges.

Switchable (MM & MC)

Right, some of the integrated MC phono stages I know have difficulties with really low-output MC cartridges but if sticking to MM, which is advisable up to a certain price point, should not pose any problems.

That's interesting. I'll certainly widen my searches.

Cheers, Al.

 

[plastic penguin]

This is what I can not get my head round

when I was a kid and I listened to my dads TT it sounded lovely and warm and detailed but my dad never spent a great deal of money on the TT .

How come they cost a fortune now I just do not understand I thought £1000 on a TT is being a little over the top but understand that up to date construction knocks cost up

Great turntables do not have to cost £1000's. I had a £320 Pro-Ject Carbon Debut before I owned the Xtension, which sounded fan-bleeding-tastic.

However as with all things in this hobby there is a law of diminishing returns. My Xtension with Cadenza black cartridge cost 10 times the Debut with a 2M Red cartridge. Does it sound 10 times as good? Of course not. Does it sound significantly better? Yes it does.

There is an economic limit to how low you can go with a mechanical device before the sonic wheels come off, and there are some products out there which tread the wrong side of that line.

So true. Even my pokey £200 Xpression has an audible difference when I changed the cart. With the stock cart it was how most people assume all turntables sound: Warm and friendly sounding. Add a better cart and it gave it an immediate kick up the jacksee: More neutral and precise.

Having said all that nonsense, I can't believe, in my own environment it'll come near a ClearAudio Concept or any spinney thing around that price.

 

[MajorFubar]

This is what I can not get my head round

when I was a kid and I listened to my dads TT it sounded lovely and warm and detailed but my dad never spent a great deal of money on the TT .

Possibly cost more than you thought if you factor in inflation. The two best turntables I remember my dad owning when I was a nipper in the 1970s was a TD160 and GL75, both of which cost him around £70, when £70 represented closer to £750 in today's money. Add on top of that today's profits probably need to be higher because only a fraction of the same quantity are sold, and there's probably not much difference. Unless you mention 'Linn'. When my dad bought the TD160, I remember the original LP12 was about £18 more in the same shop; these days, to take home even the most prolateriate version in a guise that can actually play a record (ie including arm and cart) you need to relieve yourself of £2,700.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I really can not remember what make of turntable my dad had it was the 1970s

but do remember it was one of those that had the tape deck built on the side of it basically an all in one flat deck but it sounded lovely

 

[MajorFubar]

I really can not remember what make of turntable my dad had it was the 1970s

but do remember it was one of those that had the tape deck built on the side of it basically an all in one flat deck but it sounded lovely

Ah right so what he owned was a music centre, not a separate turntable.

 

[chebby]

Ah right so what he owned was a music centre, not a separate turntable.

Aah ... music-centres.

The Germans did it best.

 

[Al ears]

My first turntable was a Leak equivalent of that GL75. Takes me back that.

Not a bad one but nowadays easily bettered for equivalent money.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Sorry yes that's correct

never really see anyone who had a separate TT in the 1970s it was normally a music center or a music center that looked like a side board on legs