Croft Acoustics RIAA or Graham Slee Reflex M

[Waxy]

I have a new turntable and have a £500 budget for a phono stage. I've only ever used on-board stages, so I've no idea what sounds good with what.

I've read good things about the above 2 stages. Does anyone have experience of both? Is it just a question of valves vs solid state?

Please educate me! I listen to all sorts.

 

[stevebrock]

Waxy,

Get over on Graham Slee forums, sign up and you can home demo some phono stages fro free!

I really think if your spending that sort of money then home demos are needed.

Obviously the Nag is new - how are you finding the presentation?

Are you using the onkyp inbuilt phono?

 

[Waxy]

Yes, I saw the home demo option. Very tempting.

i am using the phono stage of the amp. It's reasonably quiet in terms of background noise but I've been wondering if a separate stage could help reduce this?

Absolutely loving the Analogue Works TT1 (Origin Live alliance tonearm with Cardas Copper cable, Naga MP-200). Listened to around 20 LPs since Friday. All have sounded considerably better than I remember them on the Pro-ject Debut/Ortofon 2M Red

 

[ifor]

I did exactly as Steve suggests and joined the Slee forum to take advantage of the two week home loan. I hadn't intended to go top of the range, but having hung around there a while I decided to try the Reflex M. I absolutely loved it and still do, having purchased one soon after the loan finished. I have no experience of the Croft, so can't help you there, but I do, very strongly, recommend the Reflex M.

 

[CJSF]

I did exactly as Steve suggests and joined the Slee forum to take advantage of the two week home loan. I hadn't intended to go top of the range, but having hung around there a while I decided to try the Reflex M. I absolutely loved it and still do, having purchased one soon after the loan finished. I have no experience of the Croft, so can't help you there, but I do, very strongly, recommend the Reflex M.

My experience is the other way round, Croft but no Graham Slee. The point is, valves have a way of dealing with the tiny cartridge signal that has to be experienced to be appreciated . . . 'dont bother' and you might be missing out?

CJSF

 

[Waxy]

It seems that Croft is not widely sold so getting to hear it could be a problem. There's the rub. I can get a demo of the GS via the loan scheme. I may be blown away and want one, but there would still be that feeling of "I wonder what the Croft sounds like"...

 

[ellisdj]

If your blown away and like the sound - what does it matter really regards to the other product. There is always better out there doesnt matter what it is

Do a home demo of the Slee and see if you like it - if you dont its made your mind up, if you do - Great you know its money well spent.

If you do loan some Slee kit I would imagine you will end up demoing more of his kit and maybe or maybe not liking that as well....

 

[Waxy]

If your blown away and like the sound - what does it matter really regards to the other product. There is always better out there doesnt matter what it is

Well, let's be honest. None of this really matters!

It's about preference, not what is 'best'.

 

[floyd droid]

It seems that Croft is not widely sold so getting to hear it could be a problem.

Well you could always give Glenn a call and ask the question , ye never know .

 

[CJSF]

True, Croft dealerships are limited, but in my humble opinion, the brand is worth the effort, you get a lot of SQ for your money. 'You will always wonder'? . . . :?

Talk to 'Steve', he shied away from valves for a long time, eventually making the effort . . . the rest is history, as they say.

What part of the country do you live Waxy?

CJSF

 

[Al ears]

Very much of a muchness I would guess. If you are going to splash your cash and you feel the phono stage in your amp is not up to it then I would suggest you get a pnono preamp that will cope with low output moving coils as well as MM as this will secure you a further upgrade path for the future.

Spending large amounts on a phono preamp that is moving magnet only is a false economy and you'd be better just spending it on a new cartridge.

 

[Waxy]

Well, I'm in no hurry to make a decision. I'm just going to enjoy the next few weeks listening to LPs through the phono stage of the Onkyo. It does sound very good. I may decide that an external stage just isn't necessary. I have registered with the GS forum so maybe in a few weeks I'll put the feelers out about a loan.

 

[Waxy]

What part of the country do you live Waxy? CJSF

Bristol, UK

 

[stevebrock]

Enjoy the Nag

 

[Al ears]

I hope he is as we do tend to push them a lot.

Not too sure on the capabilities of the Onkyo phono stage but at least it's got one.

Save money on a phono preamp and buy more vinyl.

 

[ellisdj]

Thats the magic of the free home trial - puts curiosioty to bed - but does quite often lighen the wallet

 

[Waxy]

Not too sure on the capabilities of the Onkyo phono stage but at least it's got one.

Save money on a phono preamp and buy more vinyl.

Better than the on-board stage of the Marantz PM6002 it replaced!

i need no excuses to buy more vinyl. Got a birthday coming up. A list has been made. :dance:

 

[ifor]

I hope he is as we do tend to push them a lot.

Not too sure on the capabilities of the Onkyo phono stage but at least it's got one.

Save money on a phono preamp and buy more vinyl.

i was given this sort of advice and told I would struggle to better the phono stage in my Roksan Kandy. I'm so glad I didn't listen. I also question Al's advice about not buying a stage that is MM only. To my mind it doesn't reduce the upgrade options and ensures you get best value for money for your immediate needs.

 

[Waxy]

Depending on how much beer I consume tonight, I may just hit that BUY button and take a punt. It's worked so far! Guess I have been lucky...

 

[CJSF]

Reading the recent replies in the thread, it worries me that the importance of a quality phono stage is not taken seriously enough? Its the first step along the amplification chain, and the most critical dealing with a minutely delicate signal. Get it wrong here and its down hill all the way, cant put back what has been lost, the word 'compromise' can be applied latter, but at this point, compromise is not an option IMHO? It goes back to the beginning of hifi as we know it . . . 'rubbish in, rubbish out'. Going to a lot of trouble to get the information off the record in the best way we can afford, then mess it up at the first hurdle?

Using a quality mm cartridge, why worry what happens in the future unless you have enough in the budget (most of us dont) to plan ahead? Graham Slee does, I believe, do a nice MM/MC phono stage with selectable mc cartridge loading options, but it costs.

I started my second hifi life with mm and was very happy with the Croft mm phono stage, 2 years on I moved to mc. The answer, a mc transformer that plays into the standard MM phono stage. However, not any old transformer, I looked and waited for a used veritable loading transformer to come on eBay, cost me £200, (worth noting, mc cartridges vary in the loading they work best at). I compared with more expensive 'fixed loading transformers and mc phono stages' there is no comparison.

Since then, my beloved mc transformer simply gets transferred from phono stage to phono stage, one only has to buy cheaper mm phono stages, that is forward planning. As and when and if, I change my mc cartridge, I simply change the loading to suit the new cartridge. Forward planning is good but do it right, going at it half cocked could be even more expensive IMHO . . . ?

CJSF

 

[Waxy]

That's a fair point CJSF, altough if truth be told, I cannot see myself going down the MC road any time soon (if at all).

 

[stevebrock]

That's a fair point CJSF, altough if truth be told, I cannot see myself going down the MC road any time soon (if at all).

I said that too about a Valve amp.......ooops

 

[nima]

I'm glad that two post state what I feel and think about importance of a good phono stage. Built in phono stages usually ain't no good, even if the amp was produced by established TT manufacturer (e.g. Roksan) or if the manufacturer of the amp has reputation for quality phono imputs, most of the time, this just isn't true. Rega is an exception to this rule.

I'd say that PhS is even more important than TT. Even good budget TT with decent PhS will outperform hi-end TT with crapy PhS.

Once you have a decent PhS, TT becomes the most important component, than arm.

Cartridge is the least important factor in the chain IMO. Definitely it's the factor one should consider once everything else is sorted - TT with power supply, arm, PhS + amp and speakers.

And you don't need a £500 budget to tremendously better an average built in phono stage.

And if you have £500 budget, perhaps you can find something that will sound perfect + give you open options regarding MC in the future.

 

[nima]

OR just try Rega Brio, if you dare

 

[CJSF]

That's a fair point CJSF, altough if truth be told, I cannot see myself going down the MC road any time soon (if at all).

. . . thats what we all say (said) :? . . . However, my way takes you through in easy stages without being stuck or over spending for nothing? That phono stage is important . . . enjoy. :cheers:

CJSF